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[Editorial] World of Warcraft: The Future of Raiding? A Place for Everyone

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,643MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

It’s the fall of 1999 and my Paladin is sitting on a pyramid in the eastern commonlands of Norrath waiting on the start of a raid.  Our raid leader is barking instructions, to the extent one can bark in a /shout channel.  Fairly soon 30-odd player characters take a trip up to the Plane of Hate to fight the minions of a god.  

Read more of Ryahl Smith's World of Warcraft: The Future of Raiding? A Place for Everyone.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

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Comments

  • orbitxoorbitxo fort lauderdale, FLPosts: 1,411Member Uncommon

    hehe TSW.

    gotta love that. love TSW! yay! got my attention

     

    ;-)

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,583Member Uncommon

    I love the fact that the content (even if not the rewards) of raiding are open for all now.  Was a big turn off to not have the time for the raids of old, so I could not even see the insides of the raids or the bosses involved.  Usually the Raids are where the story arcs end...it is nice now to be able to see the end of the story.

  • PemminPemmin Posts: 341Member Uncommon

    i think its about finding either a happy medium or catering to a niche because only wow really has the budget and manpower to have something for everyone and even they take long periods of time to push out content.

     

     
  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    Multiple difficulties for each raid and also multiple sizes made me quit wow and never come back. Vanila and TBC were the best, from wotlk and on Blizzard was catering to masses and dumped everything possible down ... Screw that really :)

     
  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    The wizard pyramid is in Western Commonlands (near the lake).. Sheesh!.. Destroys the entire integrity of the article.

    -WL

  • RyahlRyahl Houston Metro, TXPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Multiple difficulties for each raid and also multiple sizes made me quit wow and never come back. Vanila and TBC were the best, from wotlk and on Blizzard was catering to masses and dumped everything possible down ... Screw that really :)

     

    I get where you are coming from Dogblaster and I admit I used to feel exactly the same way about this issue.  When WoW started down this path (with Raid Finder), I wasn't terribly enthusiastic about it.

    I think their decision to visually theme gear and change itemization based on difficulty levels makes it a lot more palatable, though.  Succeeding at Mythic results in gear that is better, and looks different, than succeeding at Hard, Normal, or Raid Finder.

    I still think the comparative, competitive side of PVE is an important part.  I just no longer think it should be the only part.

    I do think @Pemmin makes a very important point, though.  WoW has the subscriber base to build these tools.  Getting four different difficulties that scale and work well has to be a pretty massive undertaking.

     

    Ryahl - writer of eye-bleeders
    FFXIV Fansite | TSWGuides
    Follow me on Twitter

  • RyahlRyahl Houston Metro, TXPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by WereLlama

    The wizard pyramid is in Western Commonlands (near the lake).. Sheesh!.. Destroys the entire integrity of the article.

    -WL

     

    I know WereLlama... I just don't have screenshots (or the computers) from that far back, but you are right I did get east/west wrong in the article.  East was gryphons... west was hill giants... I should better remember the things that stomped me as a newbie! :D

     

    Ryahl - writer of eye-bleeders
    FFXIV Fansite | TSWGuides
    Follow me on Twitter

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ryahl
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Multiple difficulties for each raid and also multiple sizes made me quit wow and never come back. Vanila and TBC were the best, from wotlk and on Blizzard was catering to masses and dumped everything possible down ... Screw that really :)

     

    I get where you are coming from Dogblaster and I admit I used to feel exactly the same way about this issue.  When WoW started down this path (with Raid Finder), I wasn't terribly enthusiastic about it.

    I think their decision to visually theme gear and change itemization based on difficulty levels makes it a lot more palatable, though.  Succeeding at Mythic results in gear that is better, and looks different, than succeeding at Hard, Normal, or Raid Finder.

    I still think the comparative, competitive side of PVE is an important part.  I just no longer think it should be the only part.

    I do think @Pemmin makes a very important point, though.  WoW has the subscriber base to build these tools.  Getting four different difficulties that scale and work well has to be a pretty massive undertaking.

     

    the level of gear has always been different in WoW between the different raid levels.

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member

    and number 1.Anarchy Online : Camelot castle 100+ players.

    Most awesome raid in the universe. (because,see PvP flags ,its also open PvP raid  instance)

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • orbitxoorbitxo fort lauderdale, FLPosts: 1,411Member Uncommon

    as long as mmos have guilds- ther will always be room for Raids, just becouse you have moved on dosent mean they are dead. the world dosent revolve around you.

    nor does any game for that matter.

  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    The lure of raiding is similar to the lure of watching live sports. People want to be part of it in case something historic happens.  I assert people want to be part of history, not just an anonymous human with little to no impact on the world(game or real).

    So for raiding, the key should be tying the raid encounter to the history of the server, if at all possible.

    Did slaying that Giant in WC impact others? Did you all make the zone safe for camping for an hour or two, receiving appropriate praise from the lower level campers?

    Going forward, I hope WoW and other games consider new ways to tie boss raiding to the social impact of the world, and not just easy, medium, hard, mythic difficulty levels.

    -WL

     

  • DaGafferDaGaffer Carbine Studios Laguna Niguel, CAPosts: 62Member

    Reasonable points in the article.

    The linked article on WildStar from 2013 is fine (though I think we're the only ones on this bandwagon per se) but check out yesterday's raid devspeak;  it's seriously the best we have ever done and shows I think a bit more unique take on raids:

    Holy snikeys

    Our raid designers are doing a 4-hour QA on reddit now too (10:30 PST Thursday 5.15)

    AMA

    Or tell us we suck, that works too ;)

    Jeremy Gaffney
    Executive Producer, Carbine Studios (Wildstar Online)

  • RyahlRyahl Houston Metro, TXPosts: 47Member
    Originally posted by WereLlama

    The lure of raiding is similar to the lure of watching live sports. People want to be part of it in case something historic happens.  I assert people want to be part of history, not just an anonymous human with little to no impact on the world(game or real).

    So for raiding, the key should be tying the raid encounter to the history of the server, if at all possible.

    Did slaying that Giant in WC impact others? Did you all make the zone safe for camping for an hour or two, receiving appropriate praise from the lower level campers?

    Going forward, I hope WoW and other games consider new ways to tie boss raiding to the social impact of the world, and not just easy, medium, hard, mythic difficulty levels.

    -WL

     

    Agreed entirely on the idea of getting out of instances and back into the world (and making that meaningful).  Right now, aside from a couple of games, that's just not where the development is going.  It makes sense, though, given emphasis on mechanic complexity that raids are currently within instances and there's nothing inherently wrong with putting special content into an instance - there are a lot of paths to epic.

    Getting MMO players back out into the MMO worlds themselves is a topic for an entirely different day.

    Ryahl - writer of eye-bleeders
    FFXIV Fansite | TSWGuides
    Follow me on Twitter

  • mikeybadmikeybad Newark, DEPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by Ryahl
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    Multiple difficulties for each raid and also multiple sizes made me quit wow and never come back. Vanila and TBC were the best, from wotlk and on Blizzard was catering to masses and dumped everything possible down ... Screw that really :)

     

    I get where you are coming from Dogblaster and I admit I used to feel exactly the same way about this issue.  When WoW started down this path (with Raid Finder), I wasn't terribly enthusiastic about it.

    I think their decision to visually theme gear and change itemization based on difficulty levels makes it a lot more palatable, though.  Succeeding at Mythic results in gear that is better, and looks different, than succeeding at Hard, Normal, or Raid Finder.

    I still think the comparative, competitive side of PVE is an important part.  I just no longer think it should be the only part.

    I do think @Pemmin makes a very important point, though.  WoW has the subscriber base to build these tools.  Getting four different difficulties that scale and work well has to be a pretty massive undertaking.

     

    I never understood this argument. There is always bleeding edge hardcore content in WoW that remains difficult. "Casuals" and "the masses" would never be able to do Yogg 0 or Heroic Rag while the content was still relevant. If you think the content is dumbed down, it's because you're choosing to participate in the easier tiers.

     

    There's always a way to distinguish the hardcore players from the average subscriber. That will never change. If the mere sight of another player wearing purples (that are easily discernible from yours) makes you squeamish, then what are you playing for? Don't let someone else's accomplishments diminish your own.

     
  • LudwikLudwik Rochester, NYPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Back when I started MMO gaming about 15 years ago, it was a core of 13 friends playing together in EQ. We could do everything together.

    Small group we would rotate people out of the main periodically so everyone got EXP.

    Large group we would tag along with some of the stronger guilds. They were always accepting of us because there was no player cap. Sometimes items would be claimed but that was okay, we were there to socialize and enjoy the experience, seeing the dragon was enough.

    Things changed with the Planes of Power. Everything was hidden behind gates and only so many players were given a key. We couldn't tag along with the big guilds anymore and we didn't have enough players on our own.

    None of us have raided since those days and only 3 of us even still play MMOs. Grouping and raiding have become huge chores. Dungeons are now designed for a set number and you have to be competent at gaming. No longer can you afford to have lots of friends or bad friends. Grouping and raiding are now only for the elite.

    While I have not experienced WoW's LFR, I will say that Rift's summoned raids and GW2's open world bosses are not friendly enough. No one will help do a summoned raid in Rift unless they need something so if you're short a few people, tough luck. Meanwhile in GW2, I have 50 attempts on Teq and Wurm having never succeeded even once.

    For a genre that has moved in the direction if convenience, its certainly made playing with your friends as inconvenient as possible.
  • WereLlamaWereLlama Lubbock, TXPosts: 243Member

    Well instancing is fine, as long as the outcome of the instance impacts the game.

    Ex. Raid group goes into instanced copy 25 of Temple of Invincible Darkness. They defeat the boss, rescue the prisoners, and gather the stash of goodies.  They come back and see their guild base has a few more workers, supplies, and a fresh spike with the head of the beast still warm (steam coming off of it).

     

     

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAPosts: 451Member

    I don't know, making raiding more accessible just makes raiding pointless.  Are you really proud that you killed Garrosh in Siege of Ogrimmar when you know that everyone has/will?  Used to be, a good number of folks never even reached the final boss in a raid, let alone participate in a raid at all.  Did people quit the game in droves over this?  No.  In fact, the populations continued to grow.  

     

    Now that the games are totally accessible to all, the player populations fluctuate wildly.  Populations don't increase over time, they ALWAYS decrease and rather rapidly I might add.  People claim they don't have the time anymore... well I hate to tell you this, you don't feel it's worth your time anymore.  People made time for raiding when it was a real challenge.  You may have been 12 when you started, but there were working folks playing the game back then who raced home from work to start a raid.  They stayed up past midnight trying to progress in a raid instance knowing they had to be back at work in 2 hours.  

     

    This, "I don't have the time anymore" excuse is bullshit.  You don't care to invest the time anymore.  That's fine.  When and if you do, you will make the time for it.  Just as you make the time to log into any game in the first place.  Making the game easier HAS NOT made the game better.  The ever dwindling populations prove that.  The fact that you can consume the content in 24 hours is not a testament to your ability to go without sleep, it's a testament to how easy the game has become.  Do you really buy any game with the intention of finishing it in a night?  No.  The fact that you can should make you mad.  Mad as hell.  I bought a game to challenge me, give me an escape from my real life for a moment, what I got was an express pass to the end with a guaranteed victory button.

     

    Bring back the grindy games of old... the ones where even getting a mount took months.  The ones where not everyone gets to raid.  The ones where playing the game is the game and not some inconvenience along the way.  Raiding wasn't meant to be accessible to all.  And if you really wanted to see the story play out, you'd have busted your butt to make it happen.  Plenty of videos showed you the raids in action.  You saw them even if you didn't participate in them. Just because you wanted the game easier doesn't make it a better game... in fact, it's a far worse game because it is easier.

     

    And that is why MMOs are failing in droves these days... accessibility.

  • mikeybadmikeybad Newark, DEPosts: 2Member
    Originally posted by Foobarx

    Are you really proud that you killed Garrosh in Siege of Ogrimmar when you know that everyone has/will?  

    Yes. My accomplishments are my own and no one else's. I raid for the competition and the relationships I've built with my raid team.

    Seeing the "heroic" green text on my items next to someone's "LFR" is all I need for validation IF loot was my only criteria for raiding. Luckily, it's not.

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,583Member Uncommon

    It is the sad people that feel the need to compete in PvE parts of games.  Kind of pathetic that they can not feel the accomplishment from beating a raid on hardcore.  Instead they have to have validation from the rest of the gamers, that this hardcore raider does not even want them to see the raid.  Instead of being happy they get better quality loot and a hard experience, instead they need the accolades of other gamers.  Makes you wonder about what is going on in their real lives that they have to turn to a game to find satisfaction.

     

    Basically it is not the raid they want.  They want something to make them feel special and keep others out.  You could get this same thing from a solo quest that only 5% are able to beat.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    and number 1.Anarchy Online : Camelot castle 100+ players.

    Most awesome raid in the universe. (because,see PvP flags ,its also open PvP raid  instance)

    in 2002, EQs Planes of Power supported a raid size of 72

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

    the raid size decreased later

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/07/23/everquest-slashing-raid-size-in-new-expansion/

     

  • utvetteguyutvetteguy Twentynine Palms, CAPosts: 6Member
    I'm really looking forward to WoD and having a great time getting back into raiding.
  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    The future of raiding is one group content, because no one I know wants to spend the time it takes to get 20 people together to do something and then deal with "afk baby crying" for four hours while you try to progress. WoW hasn't lost half of it's subscribers by innovating and moving away from raiding like all the newer games have. It's why the game is stagnant at max level these days.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by DaGaffer

    The linked article on me talking WildStar from 2013 is fine, but check out yesterday's raid update;  it's seriously the best we have ever done:

    Holy snikeys

    ^^^ Shill ;)

  • redgang1redgang1 Boise, IDPosts: 35Member
    I still remember the first time I tried to take my Everquest dial-up into a WoW raid. Something would happen once every 30seconds on my screen.....lol
  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance ParisPosts: 1,223Member
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    and number 1.Anarchy Online : Camelot castle 100+ players.

    Most awesome raid in the universe. (because,see PvP flags ,its also open PvP raid  instance)

    in 2002, EQs Planes of Power supported a raid size of 72

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

    the raid size decreased later

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/07/23/everquest-slashing-raid-size-in-new-expansion/

     

    Hee hee, I remember the AO Camelot castle raid. I was on it once and we got pummeled. Did a few other raids in AO as well, such as killing the Omni tank bosses. AI brought in smaller "raids"... did a few of those too with my organization.

    I am surprised no one mentioned DAoC though as being a game with the need for large raids once ToA was released. It is what turned me off of raiding for a very long time.

    But then the problems with raiding with large numbers of people are at the root of any sort of large-scale MMORPG gaming, not just raids. Just look at RvR for example. It takes lots of logistics, time, and dealing with a lot of frustration, more than I am prepared to feel when I am engaging in a passtime that is supposed to provide me some escape from reality for a little while.

    I sort of wish that game companies would shy away from raids and add really, really challenging group-based content instead and if they are story-based games, more stories for max level people. Just because you are at the end of the road as far as levels go should not mean that you are at the end of the story.

     

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

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