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Hex: Wizards of the Coast Files Suit Against Cryptozoic

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Comments

  • EndoRobotoEndoRoboto Silverdale, WAPosts: 275Member
    Father Knows Breast
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I generally abhor these types of lawsuits BUT Hex is MTG basically, its just too much alike IMO.

    The first time I played HEX I jokingly said - these guys are gonna get sued - and look at this almost a year later they did.

    Not surprising at all to me. 

    This is rather disappointing to read, as their whole selling point when they were crowdfunding was that it was an original take on an MMOTCG/RPG

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by redgang1
    Is it even possible to sue a game in closed beta? Anything can change at any time. Seems like a misplay on Wizards part on multiple levels.

    Yes they can. the code is written and made available to the public. Calling it beta and saying it might change doesn't change the fact that they copied something they shouldn't have. 

  • rentantilusrentantilus Alpharetta, GAPosts: 799Member Uncommon

    You have to love the hypocrisy of corporate America and our comical legal system. Funny how you don't (and never will) hear about WotC going after Blizzard for Hearthstone. You never pick a fight with a bigger guy, only a smaller one.

     

    I'm not saying WotC is wrong here; they should defend their ideas. This isn't like them going after some D&D ripoff. They inherited that property, but M:TG is what made WotC a juggernaut in the first place. Got to protect the core IP of the company.

     

    It's funny how often real life parallels game design. Our legal system is basically pay-to-win when it should be subscription (tax) based. You pay your taxes and the law is on your side. Instead, whoever buys the most Legal System Coins wins every time.

    __________
    When you see a new MMORPG, honestly think to yourself: "Is this game designed to EARN my $15 per month subscription with content, originality, and long-term value, or is it just designed to SCAM me out of $50 when I buy the box at the store with flashy advertising, biased reviews, and empty promises?"

  • mentoplusmentoplus ParanaPosts: 44Member
    Originally posted by rentantilus

    You have to love the hypocrisy of corporate America and our comical legal system. Funny how you don't (and never will) hear about WotC going after Blizzard for Hearthstone. You never pick a fight with a bigger guy, only a smaller one.

    I'm not saying WotC is wrong here; they should defend their ideas. This isn't like them going after some D&D ripoff. They inherited that property, but M:TG is what made WotC a juggernaut in the first place. Got to protect the core IP of the company.

    It's funny how often real life parallels game design. Our legal system is basically pay-to-win when it should be subscription (tax) based. You pay your taxes and the law is on your side. Instead, whoever buys the most Legal System Coins wins every time.

    1 of the 2

    you never played hearthstone or...

    you dont know wtf are you talking about 

    i played magic for 9-10 years and i play heartstone, i cant even find 1 similarity between the 2 games, well maybe that they use cards lol

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 876Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mentoplus
    Originally posted by rentantilus

    You have to love the hypocrisy of corporate America and our comical legal system. Funny how you don't (and never will) hear about WotC going after Blizzard for Hearthstone. You never pick a fight with a bigger guy, only a smaller one.

    I'm not saying WotC is wrong here; they should defend their ideas. This isn't like them going after some D&D ripoff. They inherited that property, but M:TG is what made WotC a juggernaut in the first place. Got to protect the core IP of the company.

    It's funny how often real life parallels game design. Our legal system is basically pay-to-win when it should be subscription (tax) based. You pay your taxes and the law is on your side. Instead, whoever buys the most Legal System Coins wins every time.

    1 of the 2

    you never played hearthstone or...

    you dont know wtf are you talking about 

    i played magic for 9-10 years and i play heartstone, i cant even find 1 similarity between the 2 games, well maybe that they use cards lol

    Both games use cards and... hmmm... ummm... they both have life points?

    Ooh! Ooh! They both use numbers at the bottom of the cards to denote attack / defend strength! BLIZZARD SHOULD BE SUED!

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • mase1771mase1771 Malakoff, TXPosts: 22Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by furbans
    Originally posted by Jacxolope
    Originally posted by jimmywolf
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
    Originally posted by Sector13
    Originally posted by seafirex

    You should look at vids of the gameplay etc.. It is basically the same game except some name change and a few twist to it.

    But in the end it is the same game. Thats why they are doing this. It is there right in this case. I would be mad at the dev that actually created this. Not the other way around. 

    Ok, and why are they not sueing Blizzard over Hearthstone? Hearthstone is a complete MTG clone with a Warcraft skin on it. 

    What? Hearthstone is nothing like MTG, at all. Not even close.

    Can't comment on Hex though, never played it. Hope it gets resolved favorably for all parties involved.

    If you've player MTG you've played HEX. The similarities are astounding.

     

    ....the lore of hex is different, their wanting to add PVE with dungeons an raids,  the art work is different,  yes they has same health amount an same amount colors  but how resource are handle are different. IE  you could play  2 red cards with one ruby threshold  long you had enough resources.

     

    i hope this fall threw as it a attempt too strong arm control a digital market that their just fishing in doing very little an collecting $$$

     

     

     

    it not hard too look at the BETA an go yup looks the same....... guess we should sue every FPS for been a CoD clone,  they all got guns......

    YUP-

    And TSR should have sued anyone using acronyms like HP (for Hit points) or having the attributes we commonly see across every PC RPG (Dex, con, str, etc...)

     

    Oh- And I wonder where MTG ever came up with the ideal of using Mana as a form of magic points- Yes, Mana is Biblical (used as food) but was incorporated into gaming as Magic Points by someone who wasnt MTG.

    This is a joke.

    TSR should sue people using HP with the exact same earning system through leveling and stats, armor class, thaco, ect ect that is a blatant copy of their system.  And your argument completely ignores the issue at hand, how a KS was created to develop a game that literally copied another's design almost per batum.

    Using similar mechanics is very rarely copyright infringement when it comes to board games and video games. I would be surprised if WoTC had copyrights on every single mechanic of their game. I believe Hex has enough differences to avoid being found of infringement. I think WoTC is just worried about competition. I've played couple card games that mimic Magic mechanics with not a single peep from WoTC.

     

    Btw, it's verbatim, not "per batum".

  • sirchivesirchive Nowheresville, IDPosts: 72Member

    This is a pathetic attempt by a large corporation (Hasbro) to use the legal system to eliminate competition.

    You can't copyright basic game concepts. Look at the hundreds of MMO conventions that are used across virtually every MMO. In the world of hex and counter boardgames literally thousands of games are built with the same basic structure of maps, counters, dice, combat resolution tables etc. This is true for virtually every genre of game.

    I never heard of Hex. But I checked out their website and it looks pretty interesting. Even claims to have some MMO like elements. At first glance it doesn't appear any more similar to MTG than dozens of other TCGs.

    MTG is a cool game but has morphed over the years into an insanely overpriced and manipulative cash cow for Hasbro. This is obviously a move to try to hammer down a potential competitor that would be much more reasonably priced.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    If you look at the two, Hex takes A LOT from Magic, to the point of being extremely similiar. I really dislike WotC, but I honestly see a lot in comparison that I feel the charges can be considered close enough.

    Then again TCGs aren't rare in taking elements.

    Hearthstone is designed very similiarly to Shadow Era, which Shadow Era is similiar to WoW trading card game (pretty funny they built off one another XD )

  • ZefireZefire lol, CAPosts: 676Member

    Magic the gathering is a great game but failed in online innovation.

    Hex features looks so innovative and lets hope all for a great online card game.

  • Sector13Sector13 New Providence, PAPosts: 687Member
    Originally posted by sirchive

    This is a pathetic attempt by a large corporation (Hasbro) to use the legal system to eliminate competition.

    You can't copyright basic game concepts.

    Nope, they can't exactly copyright it but they own the patent over it:

    http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5662332.PN.&OS=PN/5662332&RS=PN/5662332

     

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member
    Originally posted by sirchive

    This is a pathetic attempt by a large corporation (Hasbro) to use the legal system to eliminate competition.

    You can't copyright basic game concepts. Look at the hundreds of MMO conventions that are used across virtually every MMO. In the world of hex and counter boardgames literally thousands of games are built with the same basic structure of maps, counters, dice, combat resolution tables etc. This is true for virtually every genre of game.

    I never heard of Hex. But I checked out their website and it looks pretty interesting. Even claims to have some MMO like elements. At first glance it doesn't appear any more similar to MTG than dozens of other TCGs.

    MTG is a cool game but has morphed over the years into an insanely overpriced and manipulative cash cow for Hasbro. This is obviously a move to try to hammer down a potential competitor that would be much more reasonably priced.

    Read the complaint its not one or two factors being copied its the entire game methodolgy and style. Heck people are even being told to play Magic if they want to prepare themselves for the release as its identical.

    I am all for freedom todevelop games but seruiosuly at least be more resourceful than just changing a few names. ie Enchantments became Constants, Instants became Swift Action etc etc.

    Sometimes you know just sometimes the big company isn't the one in the wrong.

     

  • Dodgersno16Dodgersno16 Greenville, SCPosts: 7Member

    Hearthstone completely rips of the core mechanics of M:TG.  It's based on the WoWTCG, which was pretty much the same core mechanics, only real difference was the combat phase.  In M:TG all attackers are chosen and attack at once, where WoWTCG attacks are one on one.  This is a HUGE difference in gameplay, and is why WoWTCG was better.  Hearthstone has taken the same card game, and adapted it a little more to make a video game out of it.  Mostly taking out reactive cards like "interrupts", and replaced them with "secrets".  This is done to speed up gameplay, allowing players to only make moves on their turn.

     

    And of course all TCG's have copied M:tG.  Should they all have to pay royalties to WotC?

  • sirchivesirchive Nowheresville, IDPosts: 72Member
    Originally posted by Gadareth
    Read the complaint its not one or two factors being copied its the entire game methodolgy and style. Heck people are even being told to play Magic if they want to prepare themselves for the release as its identical.

    I am all for freedom todevelop games but seruiosuly at least be more resourceful than just changing a few names. ie Enchantments became Constants, Instants became Swift Action etc etc.

    Sometimes you know just sometimes the big company isn't the one in the wrong.

     

    That may be so. But, as far as I know, basic game methodology and style cannot be copyrighted or patented. Unless they are using copies of MTG's artwork it simply doesn't matter if they use fundamentally the same game mechanics.

    Look at your favorite MMO. I'm sure you do quests and earn xp so that you can level up. Scores of MMOs have had these precise mechanics as well as many others in common. I've even seen a bunch of MMOs that designate loot as Green:Blue:Purple to indicate increasing rarity.

    These types of game mechanics can't be "owned" by any one company. Many MMO designers have made no secret of the fact that they want to be like WoW but better. So Hex wants to be like MTG but better. It's not something that calls for a legal attack.

  • redgang1redgang1 Boise, IDPosts: 35Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by redgang1
    Is it even possible to sue a game in closed beta? Anything can change at any time. Seems like a misplay on Wizards part on multiple levels.

    Yes they can. the code is written and made available to the public. Calling it beta and saying it might change doesn't change the fact that they copied something they shouldn't have. 

    Beta is really just extended testing though. They didn't technically copy it until they release it that way. They could change the entire game in beta and claim that was their plan all along, completely thwarting the lawsuit.

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon

    Unless they intend to drag this out and delay the release of Hex in hopes of out spending Cryptozoic on legal fees and bleeding Crypto dry, Hasbro/WotC don't have much of a case.  Cryptozoic also made the WoW TCG, which was very similar to both Magic AND Hex, and WotC did nothing about it.  A judge can look at that and say "Well, you did nothing in the past about it so don't come into court expecting relief now" with the legal term being estoppel.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel

    The reason they're acting now is because they are very worried that Hex is going to curb stomp them online.  Magic's online version is an absolute piece of shit that hasn't been updated or improved in over 10 years and they haven't been inclined to do anything about it because "You'll play our shit pile of an online offering and you'll like it!  What are you going to do?  Where are you going to go?".  Now that there is an option that is very much like Magic but with a much more modern and robust online game, WotC are worried.

    All that aside, copyright law doesn't preclude someone else making a similar game based on similar principles. 

    "Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
    Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable."

    http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

    Most of the above info I got from members of my Hex guild who know much more about this sort of thing than I do.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • Mors.MagneMors.Magne LondonPosts: 1,420Member

    I reckon the underlying problem is that Hearthstone is the massive success that MTGO should have been, and now Wizards is under pressure and fighting for survival - doing everything it can. 

     

    The reason why I think that MTGO might be fighting for survival is that in order to continue as they are, the number of new players has to at least equal the number of people who no longer wish to play MTGO. Heathstone could totally mess that equation up for Wizards, which means they have to do something or lay people off etc.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ikonis

    Did any of you people attacking WoTC even read the lawsuit? 

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/224144304/Wizards-of-the-Coast-v-Cryptozoic-Entertainment-et-al

    They have a very good reason. How many card games has there been since Magic? Why haven't all those tons and tons of games not been sued? Because they didn't go out of their way to clone Magic. They actually brought entirely new game play mechanics.  Hex copied Magic beat for beat. The colors, tapping, turn sequence, resolution rules, resource management, everything. All they did was change some names. It is the exact same game. 

    Hence, why they could release the Alpha so quickly after the KS.

    I am glad I got the refund last year!  As if Cryptozoid isn't willing to settle, this is going to get ugly and they might end up just shutting it down and People can say all their KS Money goodbye!

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member

    Ok to make this simpler how exactly is Hex DIFFERENT from MTG ? Give me 10 points which Hex has which MTG doesnt ...

     

     

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    Kind of strange, considering you can't copyright game mechanics.  Patent infringement seems really unlikely as well, unless Hex is actually using similar names for characters that are unique to MtG.  Lastly, trade dress infringement is a bit far fetched as well, if for no other reason than many card games use the same basic element positioning for cards (art at the top, info below it, costs listed above, etc..  Maybe they are looking at a different angle with that one; kind of weird.

    WotC could just be hoping to score a quick settlement for a few points of profit.

    You make me like charity

  • BruceYeeBruceYee Los Angeles, CAPosts: 427Member Uncommon

    The way they attack the controller(the line) is the same.

    Maybe if they change that they can avoid a lot of headache.

    Looks more like they are going after them though because the hype for Hex is pretty big right now.

  • summitussummitus TimbuktuPosts: 1,414Member

    This just goes to prove guys .. its all about the money ...not the gamers.  sigh

    I have been looking forward to Hex, so now because of Wotc greed , I'm going to have to wait .. or in the worst case scenario , never get to play it at all .. fuck you Wizards ...

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member
    Originally posted by summitus

    This just goes to prove guys .. its all about the money ...not the gamers.  sigh

    I have been looking forward to Hex, so now because of Wotc greed , I'm going to have to wait .. or in the worst case scenario , never get to play it at all .. fuck you Wizards ...

    In this case its all about the ripoff Hex should not have just copied someone elses game and called it their own WoTC have every right to call them on it.

  • summitussummitus TimbuktuPosts: 1,414Member
    Originally posted by Gadareth
    Originally posted by summitus

    This just goes to prove guys .. its all about the money ...not the gamers.  sigh

    I have been looking forward to Hex, so now because of Wotc greed , I'm going to have to wait .. or in the worst case scenario , never get to play it at all .. fuck you Wizards ...

    In this case its all about the ripoff Hex should not have just copied someone elses game and called it their own WoTC have every right to call them on it.

    Like the hundreds of other clones of Magic out there never bothered them before has it . You look at how you want, but its pure and simple greed , or the fact that Hex is a far better game that the pos Mtgo is ...

  • MegilindirMegilindir AnkaraPosts: 89Member

    This is absurd you cannot basically sue one thing over imitation.Everything created in this universe is a simple example of this. The greed and jealousy are astounding. Then again why dont wotc make a game like cryptozoic makes? Its not virtuous. Every artist for instance has an inspiration point where they imitate one another. Simple crap. I hope Wotc will lose this case hard and i hope Hex will flourish. Ive been a magic fan since i was a child and look at this nonsense. Then, Wotc should stop using imperialistic approach on crappy duels of the planeswalkers every frekking year and start doing what cryptozoic does. Pathetic, absurd and ridiculous.

     

     

    beLIEve

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