Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
When Did Cheating in MMORPGs Become OK?
Voqar
Member UncommonPosts: 510
I've been playing MMORPGs since EQ released, and I've played most of the biggies along the way and been a huge fan of the genre.
For the majority of this ride, there have been several things that have clearly been cheating. Client-side hacks like teleport hacks or speed hacks, for example. Real money trading (RMT) for another.
Along the way the quality of MMORPGs has kind of slid into the toilet and so many games either end up F2P or start of F2P and switch to using pay 2 win cash shops to continue to make money. Sometimes part of that pay 2 win cash shop involves selling in-game currency for cash - which means the company is now the RMT provider and cheating is now part of the game. You get what you pay for. And somebody IS paying in F2P, you either "pay" by playing a crappy game or you buy a lot of game data for cash that you'd spend time earning in real games.
Players have pretty much come to expect pay 2 win in cash shops and even cash for game currency isn't really a big deal in F2P games anymore. We expect sleaze in F2P MMORPGs, we get sleaze in MMORPGs.
So then, what happens when games like EVE have plex? Now, I don't consider EVE to be an MMORPG the same way that EQ, or WoW, or FFXIV are MMORPGs. It's massive. It has subs. It's online. But it's not exactly the same style of game for gameplay or overall flow. So....the fact that plex is basically cash for currency doesn't much matter to me in that game.
Maybe it's because I'm older and not part of the steal everything that isn't being guarded by someone with an assault rifle generation that I've often heard, and believe that just because someone else does something bad/illegal/whatever doesn't mean it's ok to do a bad/illegal/whatever thing. So to me, the fact that EVE, a game I don't play and don't care about, allows players to pay 2 win with cash, doesn't mean that it's now OK in any other game that wants to include it.
To me, cheating is cheating. I'm not a jock but I used to play some sports, and played a lot of sports growing up, and played board games of all types, and card games, and then consoles (this is back in Atari 2600 times, before PCs were common), and eventually PC games. At no time in all of my sports or gaming life has cheating ever been acceptable.
And to me, RMT is cheating. As it has been in most MMORPGs since MMORPGs began. Paying cash for gold is just like using a console cheat code in a single player game - except the cheater is an even bigger loser because they're are PAYING to cheat (how dumb to you have to be?).
Another slippery slope shows up with a game like GW2. It had a premium box price at release ($60) but no sub. Buy to play. But GW2 also has a cash shop, with plenty of pay to win, and GW2 has the gem store, which is just a fancy way of saying you can turn cash into game gold. So basically you can do RMT in GW2 with ANet taking a cut instead of a chinese gold farmer, and you can pay 2 win. Back when I quit GW2 there was a bunch of uber weapons you could craft, if you grinded your everloving butt off to get the bazillion materials needed. There was no way I was doing that. Zero. But, since those items could be sold in the auction house, anybody could get one if they could come up with the insane amount of gold. Not so insane if you're willing to dump a bunch of cash into the game for the ultimate in pay 2 win.
To me it pretty much ruins the game and diminishes your accomplishments - thus the entire point of playing - when people can just buy their way thru the game with cash.
Now with GW2, since it's not a sub based game, and since it has a cash shop like a F2P, and since it involves pay 2 win via cash shop no matter how you slice it, I think players again accept it somewhat because the game is somewhat F2P. Players expect there to be some lameness involved when there's a cash shop. As with EVE, I also don't consider GW2 to be an MMORPG along the lines of more typical MMORPGs, because it's more of a single player game that happens to be online. You don't really do classic grouping things, you more share spaces with other soloists and call it a group - sometimes. So again, since nobody I know who actually LIKES more typical MMORPG gameplay could stomach GW2 for very long - I don't care if people cheat and pay cash for gold in GW2.
And again - just because some game allows cash for gold and pay 2 win doesn't mean it's something that we should tolerate or expect in all games.
Now we come to where I really have a problem with where this trend is going. WildStar. WildStar terms itself as a "premium game" and it does have a premium box price of $60, and it has a monthly $15 sub. It has all the typical elements of a more typical MMORPG (even if it's in the modern suck style of too much solo idiot mode and pointless instanced PvP).
I like sub-based MMORPGs for a couple of reasons. For one, I don't mind paying for some of the least expensive entertainment I can find IF it's worth the sub. Obviously many MMORPGs end up not being worth a sub - mostly the newer ones, because no single player game is worth a sub and they just fail to deliver on the whole MMORPG thing.
But more importantly, I don't like pay 2 win. I don't like cheating. I don't like CHEATERS or people who willingly pay 2 win (because they're incapable or unwilling to actually play...yeah...not a fan of lazy and/or incompetent). A major benefit of sub-based games is that we all pay the same amount to play. Period. Level playing field. We all have the exact same ceiling for success, and the same potential for success, and it's only limited by how we play the game.
IMO, as soon as you allow cash to be a part of the equation, aka cheating, you distort the playing field and the balance. Now it's not just how you play, but it's also how much you're willing to play. Maybe you're too lazy to gather crafting mats and buy them with cash, or can't be bothered to play the game to get enough gold to decorate barbie's dream house, or you blew all your coin and can't afford your mount now. Whatever it is, if you solve that problem by throwing cash at the game, by cheating, you're ruining the game.
So my problem with WildStar is CREDD. CREDD is a system where you can pay your sub with cash, or you can buy a CREDD token that "stands" for a sub for more than the normal cost of a sub and use that for your sub - if you're an idiot. More likely you use that CREDD token in the game, where you can list it on the commodity exchange (WildStar's 2nd Auction House - ie, player economy), and sell it for gold in the game. Some other player with extra gold can buy your CREDD token and use it for their sub, avoiding spending their cash. Either way, the sub is paid - Carbine isn't giving our free gameplay (but they kind of market it that way).
And the bottom line is that the person who buys the CREDD for cash and sells it in game for gold is ultimately paying cash to get gold. Which is RMT in most games, except here Carbine is the RMT. And in most games it's bannable cheating. But now, with the evolution of sleaze in MMORPGs, it's acceptable?
So how did we get to this point? Where what was bannable cheating a few years ago is now a game feature? And players don't care? And the gaming press doesn't care?
People are people, they come up with all kinds of justifcations for doing lame things. People will give you all kinds of reasons why it's ok to steal intellecual property online - when the main reason they do it is BECAUSE THEY can (with little far of getting caught and punished; those same people most likely do not shoplift all of their groceries or gun down everyone they disagree with since they'd be caught and punished).
People come up with lots of lame justifications for why it's now ok to cheat in MMORPGs, like how you can cheat via CREDD in WildStar.
I've seen people write that it's ok because EVE has Plex. Pretty thin.
People will say it's not really cheating. Um. No. It's cheating. If you dose with banned substances and compete in sports it's cheating. If you use a console command to give yourself piles of gold, resources, units, whatever in a single player game it's cheating - that's why they call them CHEAT CODES. The basic idea is that when you use external means to get ahead in an otherwise closed system, you are cheating. So using cash to buy game data in games that have virtual economies is cheating. That's why it's been a bannable offense thru MMORPG history and something companies aggressively go after. It undermines a game or sport when cheating is going on.
So I don't really buy the reasons people have for saying that companies selling gold for cash in so-called premium games is ok. Maybe it's tolerable in F2P garbage - if you play F2P garbage. You pretty much have to expect cheating in games that lie about being free (since, derp, nobody is making million dollar games for free, SOMEONE is paying, F2P is about higher profit margins for the bean counters, not about doing anything good for players or quality of game). But when a game bills itself as premium, when a game has a sub, when a game is theoretically as good as it can get for integrity in this currently lame MMORPG genre, isn't it a bit much for that so-called premium game to have some of the most blatant cheating built right in to it?
I guess I'm just wierd. It's really odd to me that this isn't huge news for the gaming sites. But then, it's not like many gaming sites actually DO news these days, they're mostly just paid review and paid advertising/hype sites for the big name games. It's pretty sad.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Comments
Voqar you sir have hit the nail on the hat n i applaud u...the new "evolution" of mmo plalyers are blind dum kids...if they need ti actually use there brain to play they will whine...look at what happen to WoW...but that being said....p2w is a horrible thing and yes it is cheating no matter how you look at it....back in the day we used to p2w...by back in the day i mean in the 90's...how? do you remember a lil tlhing called..
GAME GENIE...you paid for cheat to win......p..2...w.....wake up ppl...its he truth....n the truth hurts....
Word.
"People will say it's not really cheating. Um. No. It's cheating. If you dose with banned substances and compete in sports it's cheating."
OP, are you saying these games are putting in item malls and then making it against the rules to use them? If not, then I don't see the parallel there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There was allways cheating in games and Players already exploited, cheated and botted in DAOC which was the first mmo i played - it was never absent!
In the "betray me" economy/society we have developed it is no wonder that less poeple see it as sort of a sin...
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
I think the same exact time as the cheating thing....or Kool Aid
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I think a game that makes the reward too difficult to attain already opens a demand for shortcuts aka cheating.
So any game that has long gear grinds or terrible money sinks creates a demand for some kind of short cut, exploit, cheat, to avoid that.
Another example could be people going afk in instanced pvp. They are there to collect the reward which takes too much time. Thus its not so much about the content, but the goal to then begin the content.
So maybe content should be designed in such a way that the demand for short cuts is less. I know ppl also enjoy the challenge of being patient and eventually getting their reward. However these people must put down a lot of down time on something that is actualyl temporary since gear changes with updates and not even expansions... or they are fine not being the best geared person whcih for others is a problem hence the demand to cheat to buy gold/in game currecny to buy better gear for example.
Games are not as rewarding as they should be. And making the greatest story in a mmo wont fix that, since some people will just want to get to the end game. So the longer the jounrey can also create a demand for cheating. This issue might be more minor than other issues in the game such as a terrible gear grind... but its still a valid concern to not make it feel like a waste of time.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
It's only cheating if it is against the rules according to the company running the game. If the game contains systems which allow currency exchange, then obviously it isn't cheating.
Your own personal beliefs / morals / preferences do not determine what is cheating. You do not make the rules for the game.
If the NFL, MLB, etc said it is not against the rules to use steroids and stuff, then it would not be cheating. It is only cheating because, for now at least, it is against their rules. Would people look down upon it? Most likely at first.. Would it be cheating? No.
I almost understand how people could mistake PLEX for p2w, but if they spent about 5 minutes looking into how PLEX works they would see it's not.
A) Having alot of ISK does not mean you win. Just look at all the shiny kills on the killboards.
C) The only real cheaters are the people who use 3rd party programs like bots or exploit bugs until they are either banned or the bugs are fixed. Using a system that is put in place by the devs is not "cheating".
D) It would seem that alot of what people consider "p2w" isn't even really p2w. Being able to buy something a little faster than others can earn it isn't exactly p2w. Being able to buy a super set of armor or weapon that no one else can acquire through ingame means would be p2w in my opinion.
Most people who cheat do so because there IS no fear of punishment. If there is no fear of punishment, then there is no punishment for cheating in the first place... or there is something very wrong with the person who is cheating. There is a lot of psycho-babble one could say about this. But that's the basics of it...
Wrong.
You can buy PLEX in the EvE Account Management for real life currency. This bought PLEX is a physical item in-game that can be traded to players for ISK. Currently the price for a 60day PLEX is ranging between 1 billion and 1.3 billion ISK. CCP games also offers a secure trading feature to prevent scams. I guess that CCP games wanted to squeeze the ISK seller out of the game, but this never happened.
Also, you have to consider that EvE is full of bot users and by saying this I do not mean china farmers. I'm talking about the user base. I have played the game for almost a decade and know that there are enough bots available. Some alliances even have got capable programmers writing their own bot solution. I know of people who managed to make a living out of running 20 or more bots.
I guess that CCP games wanted to squeeze the ISK seller out of the game, but this never happened.
You say he is wrong and then just rephrase the same statement poster has made....
Actually, he is correct. That PLEX never becomes ISK. Also, a PLEX is a 30-day time extension. There are no 60-day PLEX.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Playing for "almost a decade" and does not know that only PLEX there is, is 30 day playtime extension....
I meant if it's not against the rules how is it cheating. Counting cards is heavily frowned upon but it's not cheating as there's no rule in blackjack that says you can't use you brain.
Did you learn this in a Pub after having 10 pints?
Fear has never been an appropriate instrument to prevent anyone of doing something.
Have a look at the US justice system. Compared to for example European laws, the US courts convict to long sentences and even to death. Yet, the US is the country with the highest incarceration rates worldwide. Their jails are literally bursting. So, the fear of punishment seems not to work that well.
In my opinion, the best solutions are creating a healthy community, proactive actions and educational advertising alongside with a zero tolerance towards cheaters. Example:
Step 1: Understand that cheating can never be prevented at a 100% rate.
Step 2: As a developer, create easy-to-use instruments to report cheaters. (ESOs mail system for example is good)
Step 3: Create a healthy community and continously advertize to report suspicious players.
Step 4: As a publisher, maintain a 24/7 strike team that is focussing on hunting down cheaters.
Step 5: Give feedback to the player base. For example press releases with total numbers of banned cheaters.
Do you think your wife or girlfriend would consider your flirting with other women cheating... or do you think she would just frown upon it?
Whichever way she goes... you should feel pretty $hitty for doing it. If you don't... then there is something wrong with you.
Like I said, there is a lot to be said about this, but I really don't want to get too deep into it.
I say wrong to his last statement, that PLEX is not RMT. In the end it is, but it is accepted by the player base.
Possible PLEX RMT cycle (values are examples):
1. PlayerA buys PLEX for real money
2. PlayerA sells PLEX to PlayerB for ISK
---- conversion 1 achieved
3. PlayerB is running several bots (1 bot amortizes after a week of farming; 3 weeks are profit)
4. PlayerB sells the farmed ISK to a RMT
---- conversion 2 achieved
That's why I said he was wrong when stating PLEX was not RMT. Because it is and the displayed cycle is not just a guess. That's what happens sinxc PLEX have been introduced.
To have the current sales numbers I headed over to the eveger forum. The last entry was 60 days for 1.3 billion. I assumed they introduced a 60 day PLEX.
To have the current sales numbers I headed over to the eveger forum. The last entry was 60 days for 1.3 billion. I assumed they introduced a 60 day PLEX.
My character was created on 2004.08.14 12:22 to 2004.08.14 12:37. Character at EvEgate: https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Asariasha
I know enough about this game.
There was a time when MMORPG companies drew a line in the sand and if you crossed it accounts would get banned. Then they walked over the line, pushed the gold farmers out of the way, turned around and offered to sell gold to the players themselves. In effect becoming the gold sellers that used to get banned and obliterating any integrity they had.
I wish I could say it stopped at gold too, but no, they sold everything. Cosmetic items that could have been in the game got ripped out and put in cash shops, cash shop exclusive mounts, then before you know it your not so much playing a MMORPG as a virtual shopping mall.
Sad times.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Irrelevant. You're talking ethics/morals and this is a discussion of the actual rules. One can consider the rules odd, silly, dumb, imbalanced, etc but it IS the rules. Saying that buying from the official item mall is cheating is at best a display of a lack of understanding. At worst, idiocy or lunacy.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So you leave out all the context and argue about it? Gratz.
PLEX is never converted to anything but game time. It can be exchanged or sold on the market, but never converted.
Let's not go there. I mean, by using that argument, doesn't owning any item or currency in any MMO makes one a cheater as there is the possibility an RMTer will get/buy it and sell it?
I've written almost every official word you have ever read on PLEX since it was released in 2008. I know a thing or two about a thing or two, too.
* Robokapp is correct: PLEX in never converted to ISK.
*Normally, I would never go there, but this just seemed a wonderfully opportune moment to do so.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre