It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
While it may seem strange to you but... Subscription fees to me are akin to having a monthly payment for an object, service, etc you're not fully aware of whether it's good, worth it, or even fun.
A monthly payment for a car? Sure I have the car, I know how it is, it fits a purpose. A monthly payment for a game I would need to see if it's warranted to pay for services. ESO for example flopped heavily, likewise with many other originally p2p mmos. Why should we pay for mediocre games on top of box price? It's not about the money really, it's more a principle thing. I'm not going to line the pockets of others with money for them to get rich on half assed work.
Originally posted by Seelinnikoi There are a lot of people on this site that very often complain about subscriptions to MMORPG's and they feel they dont want to pay to play... For those people, have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, you should rather be working or looking for a means of earning money, in order to pay for your own entertainment? These are the people that complain that 15 bucks is too much for a potential whole month of entertainment, and yet they dont realise that if they just went out there to do some menial job they could be earning at the very least those 15 bucks in two hours work! What is really the excuse of people hating subscriptions so much? The only plausible reason would be that a monthly commitment would make them feel they wasted if they did not play all that frequently... but then again, if you manage to play at lease 2-3 hours of entertainment time per month from your MMO subscription, then you already had much more entertainment (price per minute/hour) than, for example, going to watch a movie or a concert...
Right, let's point out why your reasoning is flawed. Just to clear something up before I start, I don't mind paying for a game, say $60 for the game and paying for DLCs. I don't want free games or free to play.
First of all, why do you assume that people who don't like subs don't have a job. I should look for a means of earning money? What is this all about? I recently graduated from uni and I work in finance for one of the largest banks in the world and I have no trouble affording $15 a month. I make way more than that in an hour. THe more I get qualified and progress, I will earn even more money but even still at my current starting salary (less than 1 year out of uni), I probably make more money than the average person who's been employed for 10-15 years in other sectors.
Why do I not like subscriptions? Because they require commitment to play. For example, I pay $60 for the box. Then $15 a month. But what if I only played 2-3 hours in a month? Or what if I give up on the game and then want to check it out later? I need to pay another $15? Are you also expecting me to play only 1 game? What if I play 5-6 games a month for a couple of hours? What happens if all those games start to charge me a subscription? Why shouldn't a game like Call of Dury or Diablo 3 charge me a sub but an MMO can get away with it? You say because of content updates? But why not sell major content updates as DLCs? You know why? Because then those companies will have to work for their sub.
So lets have a look. Say I pay $180 for a year and I get 4 major content updates (that's also being generous, some MMOs don't release even that many) That works out at $45 per DLC? How the fuck is that not expensive?
And please don't compare MMO games to other industries like movies, concerts etc. Why not compare it to other GAMES? Doesn't that make more sense? Let's see, I can buy a game like Skyrim for $60 (full price at retail) and play that for months. How many $ per hour does that work out. Do I want to tell you how much value for money I got from games like Dota? I have played that game more than most MMOs (other than WoW) and I have paid waaaaay less than $60.
So compare the value you are getting from MMOs to other games. Then you will see how overpriced they are.
One final point. I don't need my MMOs to last me ages. I want them to be fun. Companies who charge you subs have to introduce incredibly boring time sinks just to keep you hooked and subscribed. Subs lower the quality of MMOs. If an MMO would have taken 100 hours to fully experience without time sinks, developers will introduce huge and boring time sinks for the sake of wasting your time. So say that 100 hour game, now takes you 1000. How is that good?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
If a game is worth playing, I will pay a subscription to it. If a game is not worth playing I will not. Free to play offers me the ability to waste time for nothing. If it were not free to play, I wouldn't be playing it at all.
Consider free-to-play as the developers solution to abysmal game populations. Yes, a good number of the players are not paying a damn thing, but without them, those that do pay, wouldn't have anyone to play with. Without free-to-play for many of the MMOs these days, there would be no game at all in short order.
We, the free-to-play gamers, are taking time out of our precious lives to populate your game world. It would be silly to expect us to pay for doing something that we otherwise wouldn't do.
Make better games, people will pay. So far, nothing but crap has been dished out... garbage in, garbage out.
It's not that i can't pay 15 for a subscription. My favorite games happen to have moved f2p. The only games that arn't free are now wow that i decided was crap 10 years ago, eso a game made by people that dont know how to make mmos, and maybe another i can't think of atm.
Those pay to play games just don't have the things i need as an mmo to be worthwhile. I would be happy to pay even more then 15 a month for a true mmo that ive been waiting for but no one's putting creativity before money so it's not totally clear one even exists in the near future.
No one is complaining they can't afford $15. I don't know where you read that but I've never heard anyone make that claim. The issue is what you're getting for your $15/month. You're renting access to a game and your characters and as soon as you stop paying, regardless of if you've paid thousands of dollars over time, you lose all access to said game and your in game efforts. Also, everyone knows that $15/mo per person playing is much more than the overhead to keep the game running. So that must go to further development right? Oh yeah they're then going to charge me a box price for that expansion that I already paid for the development of with my sub fee? Sounds great!
I play sub games and I still think the idea is ludicrous.
Originally posted by Gadareth Originally posted by barasawa Here's a few things for you to think about. What if you have been trying to get a job for an extended period of time? Guess what, the job market sucks, and you can't 'just go get a job'. A business posts a single minimum wage position and gets over 300 applicants the first day. Yeah, getting a job isn't that easy in a lot of places, I'm glad you live somewhere that has more jobs than applicants. (Yes, that was sarcasm.) I have a job, but damn, after paying for rent, utilities, food, etc, I'm lucky to have anything left. Hate to say it, but minimum wage is a joke if you have to live on it. And the old adage that rent shouldn't be more than 1/3rd of your income is NOT what the market is in most places. If you're on minimum wage, it's way too high for a rat hole. Sure that varies from place to place, but don't assume somebody with a job has oodles of spare cash. What if I play more than one game? Let's see. I probably play several hours at a shot, probably several days a week if I play a lot online. But I have a half dozen games I like. Some days I'm in the mood for one thing, another day is something different. I get horribly bored if I keep playing the same thing over and over. So let's see, at $15 for each game, despite the fact that I have limited play time for each of them, that's $90 for those 6 games. That seems kind of high for the playtime I get. What if it's only 2 games, well that's $30, and you only get half the time on each despite paying the full price for both. Doesn't seem right to a lot of people, especially when they do the math. Sorry OP, but your original statement was a bit, well, short sighted. Try taking in to consideration the situations others may be in, and cross check it with reality. Get a job. Or even the old get a better paying job. Sheesh, if people could easily do that by wanting it there wouldn't be any unemployment or poor people. Too bad the economy doesn't work that way. Heck, it's almost as bad as telling someone they should have been born rich.
Sorry in your case stop playing games you can't afford spend that time increasing your prospects looking for a better job. Once you have that better paying job sit back crack open that beer you can now afford eat that steak dinner you can now afford play that video game you can now afford.
If you cannot afford $15 a month then you really should not be playing these games you should be working on improving your situation. (This is even more apparent when you start wanting to play multiple mmorpgs seriously get a grip if you can't afford it DON'T DO IT and maybe seek professional help with your addiction.)
I have been in that position and trust me getting out of it took a lot of work and time but ultimately worth it.
You guys clearly cannot understand the reality of some countries... Add your obligations (children, food, transportation, water, gas, and all that crap - most of which are inflated anyway) to the low wages (even on "good" jobs), and you can start imagining that 15 bucks may just be that important... Yes, 15 bucks... Seems silly to you? I can imagine it does, but unfortunately it happens... So making things that black and white is almost offensive...
In the end paying or not is not always a choice... Which is ok, I guess... It's just the way world works...
"Vidis Fodidis Est"
Originally posted by Jinzouningen Ok if youre paying a monthly for something and you are using that something 24hrs a day then that argument is crap?
Paying for cable , satellite, tv (if you do that kind of thing ) is crap but monthly
Paying for phone, internet, cellphone is monthly
Utility bills so you want the game companies to offer utility bill or usage based pricing. Seems perfectly fine and i mean its been done before but it still boils down to finding another game or something else to do if they arent offering a reasonable means for you to play.
When i was a kid i wanted to be on Double Dare (go fig) but i lived in Louisiana so i couldnt afford to be on Double Dare. PHYSICAL CHALLENGE !
You are mostly comparing NEEDS versus WANTS (with exception to TV). You are also failing to consider that even things like TV are family entertainment that is used by (potentially) multiple people simultaneously is is used (I assume in most cases) significantly more than a game by a single person. So while it is not being used literally 24 hours a day, 7 days a week they are used much more than a game.
However, the root of the argument is the value of the entertainment. If you are going to charge a box fee plus subscription you'd better be providing a damn good entertainment value versus other options on the market. Hence the reason people are ditching cable for Hulu, Netflix and Amazon Prime. Better value and close to equal entertainment.
My family lives comfortably with no worries about money. It's not that I can't afford a subscription. I'd just rather play a game for free. When it comes to themepark MMO's, I play for a few weeks and then quit. Maybe I'll try another one after that or maybe I'll go find something else to do and not play any MMO's for several months. For a person like me, a $60 box and a $15 subscription is not worth it when I can get my MMO "fix" from a F2P game.
The OP is confused between "who cannot pay" to "who don't want to pay".
I pay for SP games, IMAX movies, romantic dinner with my wife, but not MMORPGs, why?
Because there is no need to spend a penny when i can get the same, or more fun (in MMOs) for free. That is the reason, not that I cannot.
It is only $15 a month .. less than a good steak ... but just like i don't pay for water in restaurants, i don't pay for MMOs.
If an MMO is good enough, I'm OK with a sub. Not a question of being able to afford it. But a subscription often doesn't mean a better game. When there are cheaper alternatives that are just as good or better, why would I pay a sub? While I'm not a huge fan of GW2 for example, I think it's better than ESO. So why would I ever play ESO when I can get a better experience cheaper from GW2?
Originally posted by nariusseldon The OP is confused between "who cannot pay" to "who don't want to pay". I pay for SP games, IMAX movies, romantic dinner with my wife, but not MMORPGs, why? Because there is no need to spend a penny when i can get the same, or more fun (in MMOs) for free. That is the reason, not that I cannot. It is only $15 a month .. less than a good steak ... but just like i don't pay for water in restaurants, i don't pay for MMOs.
That would be all good if the quality of F2P games and P2P was the same but it's not. At least not in my book. ESO love it or hate it is a game that couldn't have be made F2P (although it might convert at some point). The world just took to much time to craft to make sense in a F2P game. What you get in F2P games is things like NWN where the zones are small straight lines with one line quest's to go kill 10 rats to fill you over while you queue into the next event.
If McDonalds gave away hamburgers I still wouldn't eat there over a good steak house where I have to pay. Life is to short to waste it on cheap imitations that might fill your belly but make you feel like crap afterwards.
think back when you were 15 years old, wasn't $15 a lot of money to you?
There are a lot of 15 years old MMORPG player so that is why WoW is so popular and why they can't afford $15
It's not primarily about someone not being able to afford $15. It's that the market has changed and features that were once unique to MMOs can now be found in lots of other AAA online multiplayer games as well. And at significantly lower overall cost-of-use since there's no monthly sub. Sub-only MMOs are not as good a value entertainment-wise when compared to other game options the way they used to be. I don't think you'd find Call of Duty fans believing they somehow have less fun in their multiplayer game sessions than someone playing Eve Online. In fact...I bet most would trot out tons of arguments for why paying a monthly sub to duplicate what they themselves get monthly for free (playing online with friends) shows the MMO subbers are just as much whales as any free-spending F2P cash-shop user.
DLCs are common now for most AAA multiplayer capable games too - including some F2P ones. So even the "the sub pays for new content" argument sub-lovers trot out for the superiority of subbing doesn't fly as it once did. Ditto on the quality argument too.
The market is doing exactly what it's always done. People vote with their wallets. People who find sub-only business model MMOs a poor value for their money and time spent don't sub. If the majority of paying gamers saw a genuine value in subbing vs b2p or f2p the market would not have shifted so much.
Playing Now: The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter
Playing soon: Landmark beta, Swordman beta
Dude your assumption about people who for what ever reason don't have a Job , are the only people complaining about subscriptions , is extremely inappropriate. Maybe a mod should take a look at your post. I'm sure it must be offensive to many people.
Originally posted by Shamorau i put it this way. if i go to see a movie, thats at least $20 (rounded up), for only 90-120 minutes of entertainment. same for going to see a comedian or something of the like. so to pay $15 for a months entertainment to me is cheap. but i refuse to play pay to win games. that pretty much includes everything with a cash shop at the moment.
I don't go to theaters, I buy the Bluray of movies I want when they come out. I can watch them as many times as I want in the comfort of my own home, pause them, not worry about idiots talking on cell phones, sticky floors, people kicking the back of my chair, etc. The Bluray is usually less than $20 and I can sit down with all my friends and family whenever we want and watch. It's a win-win for me. It's not that I can't afford to go to the theater, it's that it makes no logical sense, given the downsides. The same is true of MMOs. There really isn't a game out there without a cash shop and while I can easily afford to pay $15 a month, there really are no games out there worth playing right now, either P2P or F2P. I really have no time to play anyhow, I loaded an MMO on my computer a month ago, played for about 30 minutes the first time and haven't played again since. I may just delete it since I have no time to mess with it. Why pay a sub when I'm not even going to play?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by Jaychi72 Once again I ask.... Looking for Volunteers to develop a game for Free. Any takers? Because that's basically what your asking game developers to do. Make you a game to play for free. Just so you can be entertained. The hell with the devs, they don't need revenue or income. And don't say oh they get paid through micro transactions. Because if the game stinks, (well it never stinks to the devs its always the players that complain because it doesn't suit them) They will never get paid and the game will go to waste. All that time, effort and personal money spend by them is gone. Why??? just so you don't have to sub or as you don't like to say it, pay for a game. Majority of people who play f2p games don't even use micro transactions. They play the game with as little content,items, or whatever they get without paying for it just to play a game for free.
Yup and we know that the F2P games make MORE MONEY than the P2P games do. Even if 99% of the people playing F2P games never pay a penny, the whales more than make up for it.
Originally posted by serialMMOist Originally posted by lizardbones The only necessary, plausible reason is that they do not want to pay a subscription. It need not go any further than that. ** Edit : Comma.
To an extent you are right. However they also are judging the source of entertainment and whether or not it warrants a subscription. They think because they have been around forever....paid some dues with subbing to not so good games that they deserve a 'good' game for free. Conversely the younger gamers are used to having free games and now just expect them all to be free because they never paid out sub fees.
My take is people that can't pay, don't want to pay should look for other forms of entertainment and other games. Its a business model, deal with it. Go post on a forum regarding the price of Gas.
Again, it doesn't need to go any further than that they don't want to pay for a subscription. It doesn't matter why. They might not think the game is worth the subscription, or they might not think subscriptions are worth paying at all. Since they are humans, they might not think this particular game is worth a sub, even if they think another game is worth a subscription.
None of these reasons are invalid reasons. If someone doesn't want to pay a sub, they won't. They will indeed go spend their money someplace else. That's not to say they won't express their opinions on forums, just like everyone else though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Rather narrow minded and insulting post.
Theres a difference between WANT and afford. Just because someone doesn't WANT to pay to play doesn't mean they can't afford to.
But then I guess the whole point was for the OP to get in a soap box and berate everyone that doesn't WANT to pay to play, by telling them to get a job and stop being poor.
I think a far more pressing issue is for the OP to develop some manners,and stop trying to stereotype or belittle people who don't feel the same as him.
Do NOT respond to this reply if you think the contents of the reply is unwarranted in this discussion.
On replying to the content of this reply you are participating in the discussion of its contents
Originally posted by udon Originally posted by nariusseldon The OP is confused between "who cannot pay" to "who don't want to pay". I pay for SP games, IMAX movies, romantic dinner with my wife, but not MMORPGs, why? Because there is no need to spend a penny when i can get the same, or more fun (in MMOs) for free. That is the reason, not that I cannot. It is only $15 a month .. less than a good steak ... but just like i don't pay for water in restaurants, i don't pay for MMOs.
That is just you ...
I don't play fantasy MMOs because i get better fantasy combat in D3. The only one i play (for the IP) is STO and marvel heroes (now, may be others later). There is no sub-based MMO with marvel characters that is better. There is no sub-based MMO in the star trek universe that is better.
Heck .. i would pay for good SP games with those IPs, but there is none (except the very old Marvel Ultimate Alliance which i have played already).
And yes, p2p and f2p are not that same .. and from what i like, F2P is much better. None of the p2p game is any good (except wow, which i already got bored of, and quit years ago).
The amount of ignorance in this post is amusing. Those are some in-depth thoughts you have there. No one has ever made broad assumptions about a massive group of gamers and then told them all to 'go get a job'. Thank you for posting this, I needed a good laugh today.
asia, africa. latin america . players from these regions are poorer that is a fact and solution to this problem is regional pricing.
which can be done very easy it can be done through bank or branch of that bank located in those countries, there will be always people who try to hack or cheat system but cheating paypal or bank is too risky and hard just to reduce 15$ a bit. there are people who are like asian- american and have account in both countries but they also can be check through IP address that the game is playing with in general it will solve a lot of problem including the so called F2P model wich is a lie and there is always limitations.
that being said, the gaming as entertainment is just very cheep, the so called F2P brought cash shop in the gaming world and made thing too greedy for companies to constantly updating that rather than improving game and adding content.
GAMERS PLEASE WAKE UP AND ASK FOR BETTER QUALITY AND SUPPORT AND HAVE WILL TO PAY LITTLE MONEY FOR BETTER ENTERTAINMENT.AND SAY NO TO CASH SHOP FOREVER, YOU DO HAVE THAT POWER USE IT TO MAKE THING BETTER FOR YOURSELF AND OTHERS.
PLAYING GAMES AS HERO WHO SAVES THE WORLD BUT YOU AS PLAYER IS UNABLE TO EVEN PAY A LITTLE AND MAKE THINGS BETTER.