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[Column] General: We Must Stop Poisoning the Well

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  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Gainesville, FLPosts: 147Member Uncommon

    I think most veteran MMO players can read between the lines in what people post.  MMO's like ESO get heavily scrutinized because they are a game using an archaic model of monetization with sub par features and functionality.  Now if it were a B2P game I doubt it would get as much bad publicity and even less if it were a F2P game.  It is all about value and MMO players that have been drug under the bus by games that start out as subscription and then move to F2P inside a year or two are tired of poor quality being charged at a premium.  

    Unfortunately that is also the problem is that people still toss their money at these sub par games.  If people would stop tossing them a bone "just because" it would go much further in making a statement about the quality of the game.

  • MothanosMothanos ArnhemPosts: 1,860Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by shass

    Well now, that's a bit rich. MMORPG writers slagging off their site members for criticizing some of the products. Maybe if the reviews you give these games reflected their quality and not just how much advertisement revenue they pay, their wouldn't be so many vitriolic posts. Bit of a conflict of interest here. You might want to check out this sites reviews on review centre - not good.

    I cancelled my sub to ESO because it is boring and a tedious quest fest amongst many other reasons. Not because of posters slagging the game off. I had spent £39 pounds on a product which in my view was not the one they promised or advertised.

    If I had listened to some of these nasty posters you talk about, I might have saved myself a wasted £39. Because their views were far more accurate than your self interest reviews on this site... which differ somewhat from other sites not relying on the companies advertising revenue.

    Wow has made blizzard a lot of money. Many companies are trying to jump on the bandwagon; it doesn't really work out well. Huge numbers of gamers are crying out for innovation and something to push the genre forward. They are not getting it.

    If you don't like some of the critical posts on your site... there really is no point in having the site.

    Expectations are stage managed by the industry so don't go blaming us, the punters, when we find once again we have been taken for mugs.

    Well spoken coulnt have said it better myself.

    Altough ESO for example in beta was strangely alot better  then launch when they started all kinds of exp nerfs to force you trough quests, and quests only.

    No EU servers that were promised 2 weeks post launch.

    Now i understand why.......the subs are plummeting so hard they prolly need to booth up plan B. free to play.

    Wish i could upvote on this site like on Reddit -_- but anyway a +10 for you sir.

     

     

     
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,113Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stuka1000

    The people who make the games have only themselves to blame for all the negativity.  Too many times we have had this and that promise thrown our way only for none of them to be delivered.  Some MMO's didn't even release feature complete, in fact these days most of them are not feature complete.  Remember Horizon that didn't even have the features that it advertised ON THE BOX?

    Well, to the developers and suits around game creation.  Don't cry about spilt milk when you are the ones that kicked over the bottle.

    Have to agree, the poo and dead bodies are already in the well and it wasn't us that put it there, sadly it is only getting worse.....

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  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member

    This is the Snake Oil Salesmen getting angry because his reputation is starting to get quite bad. Back in the old days he was welcomed in Town by a crowd of raging believers holding fistfulls of dollars. He was given free lodging and even offered some of the townsfolks sisters for bringing his miraculous potions and treatments for "Everything that ails you."

    Now when he rolls into a new town there are still the raging fanatics ready to part with their dollars and give away their first born- However, there are also those  standing on the sidelines and asking tough questions, demanding some proof and in some cases even running the Snake Oil Salesmen from Town.

    So the Snake Oil Salesmen (who is very clever BTW and invented modern marketing even so far as to making "brands") started taking out full page advertisments in the local Newspapers of the day. Suddenly even Editors were having cures for whatever ails them by using the product- Even the point of writing fullpage editorials about "Dr Smiths Silver Cure-All" cured his sick aunt of consumption (she lives in Denver) and these nay-sayers are honestly hurting the townsfolk by causing a disruption and sewing the seeds of discontent against this product  that REALLY WORKS.

    -True Story.

    Read "The Coke Machine" about how Coca Cola even came to be. Interesting stuff...Marketing.

     

    EDIT- We also ended up with some Consumer Law based on this practice. It just has not reached the MMO world yet. Do Payola and Plugola laws apply to online journalism ?

  • scrittyscritty WorcesterPosts: 89Member

    I disagree completely here.

    Poison that well.

    I've begun 4 new MMO's in the last 12 months, all of them have sparked, then fizzled very quickly.

    Boring games incestuously feeding off other boring games. Nothing new.

    WoW might be an aged trope, but when a game comes out that costs more than WoW, offers nothing more in terms of gameplay than WoW then you have to ask "Why not just play WoW - or, if you hate WoW - why not just give up and do something else"

    Poison this well. Destroy it. It's full of games feeding off each other. Developers looking for a cash cow but doing so by repeating the same old mistakes that have been being made for the best part of a decade.

    WE NEED A NEW WELL - IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE POISONED THIS ONE - ITS THE DEVELOPERS LACK OF IMAGINATION

  • CoffeeManCoffeeMan anytown, WIPosts: 17Member

    I think people expect more because when MMO's first came out they blew peoples minds.  I'm not old enough to have played everquest but I played warcraft, heard about WOW coming out got all my friends to buy it day 1 and we all had a blast.  Before this the biggest online experience we have all had was playing halo LAN and counterstrike.  To us it was amazing that all these people could be playing the same game.  Fast forward 10 years and other games have made leaps and bounds of improvement (gta5, skyrim, assassin's creed).  What I see when I buy a new mmo is very little improvement and more of the same.  Which is leading me to think more and more that playing an MMO is a life decision not just a hobby to do for fun.  When I play new games they are fun!  I don't even have to think about it.  With an mmo I sometimes have to find the fun, is that really a good "game"?  I think a new MMO will come out that will blow everyone's minds but until then I think a lot of mmo's are populated by people who it's one of their first mmo's and it's still exciting.

     

    BTW I think it was a well written article and had lots of good points, I just think as a whole MMO's are lacking a lot of creativity for making their games fun again.

     
  • Tr3izeTr3ize HerzelePosts: 35Member

    I think its in the middle ground with this.

    As for the gamers, they tend to expect a single player story experience in an MMO, and are sick of doing repetitive quests. Yet they want this single player story experience as a non instanced group event. This effectively means asking devs to create a separate role for every person in the group (or it will just feel like everyone doing the same over and over again).

    However, the devs and especially the marketing people of big publishers, tend to advertise games as more than they are. They are in a way increasing the already high expectations of games, just to get some more bucks at release.

    Both groups take blame in this, but publishers take the bigger part.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by scritty

    WE NEED A NEW WELL

    agree

     

    or as Jeff Strain described 7 years ago

    How to Create a Successful MMO by Jeff Strain (ArenaNet)

    http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php

    To those of you who chose to come today believing that I would make far-reaching predictions about the games we'll be creating ten years from now, I apologize.

    The truth is, I hope that I am completely ignorant about what kind of games we'll be making in ten years, because I hope some hotshot kid comes out of nowhere and changes everything out from under us before then.

    If that doesn't happen, we've all failed to embrace and protect the culture of innovation that made it possible for us to be here in the first place.

     

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member
    Originally posted by Tr3ize

    I think its in the middle ground with this.

    As for the gamers, they tend to expect a single player story experience in an MMO, and are sick of doing repetitive quests. Yet they want this single player story experience as a non instanced group event. This effectively means asking devs to create a separate role for every person in the group (or it will just feel like everyone doing the same over and over again).

    However, the devs and especially the marketing people of big publishers, tend to advertise games as more than they are. They are in a way increasing the already high expectations of games, just to get some more bucks at release.

    Both groups take blame in this, but publishers take the bigger part.

    Sure- But its all just human nature and capitalism, honestly (or rather a side effect of a capitalistic system)

    Is there blame? If there is its all on the consumer for continuing to BUY BUY BUY.

    I cannot fault or blame a wolf for being a wolf- I know what the wolf is and what its capable of. Its all in the nature of the beast.

    If I were a publisher I would milk the stupid public as well- Especially in an industry with virtually no oversight and consumer protection- And with very little real backlash. So long as I promise the moon and stars for my next game- The same public I duped before will forgive me and become rabid promoters once again.

    I could market honestly and have a great game but only nominal earnings- OR I could have a huge PR blitz, promise the World and make a fortune for less work on a lesser game. And it works every time. Time and time again.

    Its not even nessasarily a shady backroom deal- Its all unspoken. Follow the money (in everything) because it speaks louder than words.

    Its just crazy how rabid the fanbase and hype is in this genre vs anything else. How forgiving and honestly gullible MMO players are (as a whole) and this is the worse industry for consumers I have ever seen (and its getting far worse)- It never used to be this bad. It is now a result of games being more expensive than Hollywood productions. Again- Follow the money.

     

    And it will take a crash or some really tough new consumer law. One of the two. And one WILL happen. Its a question of when, not if.

  • orionblackorionblack Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 474Member Uncommon

    OMG...Look it's like this..there is no way in hell that I would pay 150$ for an invitation to an alpha beta of a free to play game, I would rather wait for that free to play game to come out to play for FREE. 

    But seeing as to how people are buying this 150$ alpha, Why would the developers stop doing this???

    Why???  The developers have only ONE goal ..ever...and that is to separate you from your money.

    Ever business is like that...they try to let you go from your money, so guess what is the only way to send the message to them that you do not approve of this method?

    That's right ...stop buying said products....until then they have no incentive what so ever to stop making said products. 

    Because being just and fair..does not pay the bills.

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member
    Originally posted by orionblack

    OMG...Look it's like this..there is no way in hell that I would pay 150$ for an invitation to an alpha beta of a free to play game, I would rather wait for that free to play game to come out to play for FREE. 

    But seeing as to how people are buying this 150$ alpha, Why would the developers stop doing this???

    Why???  The developers have only ONE goal ..ever...and that is to separate you from your money.

    Ever business is like that...they try to let you go from your money, so guess what is the only way to send the message to them that you do not approve of this method?

    That's right ...stop buying said products....until then they have no incentive what so ever to stop making said products. 

    Because being just and fair..does not pay the bills.

    Well said.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by scritty

    I disagree completely here.

    Poison that well.

    I've begun 4 new MMO's in the last 12 months, all of them have sparked, then fizzled very quickly.

    Boring games incestuously feeding off other boring games. Nothing new.

    WoW might be an aged trope, but when a game comes out that costs more than WoW, offers nothing more in terms of gameplay than WoW then you have to ask "Why not just play WoW - or, if you hate WoW - why not just give up and do something else"

    Poison this well. Destroy it. It's full of games feeding off each other. Developers looking for a cash cow but doing so by repeating the same old mistakes that have been being made for the best part of a decade.

    WE NEED A NEW WELL - IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE POISONED THIS ONE - ITS THE DEVELOPERS LACK OF IMAGINATION

    I completely disagree with your disagreement. 

     

    You assume that developers are clueless. Trust me, that's far from the case. Here's the problem, name me one MMO in the last 2 years (or 5 years) that broke the mold (innovation wise) and became a critical success.

     

    SWTOR tried to do some innovative story-telling (to the point of blowing a great deal of their cash on voice acting) and got lamb basted for it. To this day they still get the "It's no SWG" haters. I suppose it was a financial success, but if you removed the IP and 90% of the budget, it'd be a flash in the pan. 

     

    ESO is the same. Hundreds of millions invested, tons of fallout over features that were innovative (or throwbacks). Who knows how long it'll be like that. Will they change it? So far they've been resilient, but will they get pressure to push their design towards the mainstream? Possibly. 

     

    Unfortunately, people bitch and whine that they want new things but, largely, they don't. They'll try something new, say they hate it (even if it's exactly what they asked for) and go back to their old game, all the while complaining that there's nothing new and innovative being done. 

     

    So, unless you have a couple hundred million to drop on a game, the best way to make your money back is keep yourself in that safety zone where you don't really get any more criticism than "it's a WoW clone" which is tossed onto every single game anyway, so it's not even derogatory anymore. Shoot, they might as well change the genre from MMORPG to "WoW Clone" because every MMORPG gets labeled that anyway, regardless of its similarity ot WoW or not.

     

    If the attitude towards MMOs continues on the current trend, companies won't stop making them. They'll just scale back funding and assume greater risk, meaning less innovation and less advancement, until they finally die off or become so watered down that there is literally no differentiation between them.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by scritty

    I disagree completely here.

    Poison that well.

    I've begun 4 new MMO's in the last 12 months, all of them have sparked, then fizzled very quickly.

    Boring games incestuously feeding off other boring games. Nothing new.

    WoW might be an aged trope, but when a game comes out that costs more than WoW, offers nothing more in terms of gameplay than WoW then you have to ask "Why not just play WoW - or, if you hate WoW - why not just give up and do something else"

    Poison this well. Destroy it. It's full of games feeding off each other. Developers looking for a cash cow but doing so by repeating the same old mistakes that have been being made for the best part of a decade.

    WE NEED A NEW WELL - IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE POISONED THIS ONE - ITS THE DEVELOPERS LACK OF IMAGINATION

    I completely disagree with your disagreement. 

     

    .........You assume that developers are clueless. Trust me, that's far from the case. Here's the problem, name me one MMO in the last 2 years (or 5 years) that broke the mold (innovation wise) and became a critical success.......

    GW2 and TSW come to mind and I would throw Rift in also with unique souls.  Also "critical success" is subjective which is usually based of off IP, advertising budget and such. 

    Edit:

    All three games above are listed in the top 5 on MMORPG.com list of top released games.

     

     

  • SevalaSevala K, NYPosts: 134Member

    OP might be staff, but was still a silly post to make.

     

    Sure, i see people somewhat agreeing, but most blaming the Devs/suits/companies. Both are sort of true.

    Do we expect more? Of course we do, the Industry is old, suppose to be maturing, but turned into a churn bucket of empty promises and regurgitated garbage. We are the ones getting burned time and time again. We are the ones who they are trying to part from our money. It our right, and if they don't like it, they can go make an different game.

    Do the Devs/suits/companies fail? Yes, they hype their own stuff, make claims, and never come through. 10-15 years ago MMOs launched smoother and better. The industry is here for money, so it chases it. Between pre-orders and founders pre-buying, etc, etc,....they can often times fleece much money before even launching a game, so why does it matter if its a bad launch or less that expected? They already got your money.

     

    However, you know who else is to blame for alot of the poison that no one else is willing to say? Your own website, MMORPG.com. I suspect you want people to stop poisoning the well because its becoming bad for your business. Your reviews are tame, and often much more gentle even when people can tell your holding back. When was the last time any review came out and said "Oh dear god, this game is terrible, don't waste a dime on it." Probably never, although I did, finally, after years and years of reading and waiting see one post that was pretty close to that, but it wasn't even an MMO...it was some dumpy RPG that came out last week. Defiantly seems like there is some gentle treatment going on, skewed or bias or just being polite I don't know.  IMO anything posted by staff or advertised I would not take seriously any more. I'm not saying stop or anything, just my opinion, but I think it would be nice to see someone drop the hammer down once in awhile and actually call it like they see it, a polished turd is still a turd. False hype and high expectations leads to much gamer rage and flaming and bashing.

     

    Anyways, poison on, or build a new well, whatever. Just stop paying people to make crappy games.

    ~I am Many~

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by Jacxolope
    Sure- But its all just human nature and capitalism, honestly (or rather a side effect of a capitalistic system)

    Is there blame? If there is its all on the consumer for continuing to BUY BUY BUY.

    I cannot fault or blame a wolf for being a wolf- I know what the wolf is and what its capable of. Its all in the nature of the beast.

    <--SNIP-->

    Seriously, if you were a sheepherder and a wolf was killing and eating your sheep, would you shoot the wolf or shoot the sheep?

    Seriously?

    Place blame where it belongs.

    Fault the sheep if you want for not running away, for not being armed to the teeth with lawyers to sue the wolf, for actually hoping that the wolf just wants to be friends...

    ...but once the wolf starts killing the sheep, you need to shoot the wolf.

  • SatsunoryuSatsunoryu Mishawaka, INPosts: 285Member
    Split on this entire subject.  On one hand, it hits "a" mark, but on the other hand, many developers repetitious design decisions and an over-saturated MMORPG market have caused us to feel this way.
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    There are other articles lately on this site that seem to be lecturing the community about their behavior. Ironically, if these types of columns were written by forum members, they would be locked. They are unproductive and cause pointless bickering and finger pointing. I think bill Murphy should apologize...or just do something heh

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
    Originally posted by Jacxolope
    Sure- But its all just human nature and capitalism, honestly (or rather a side effect of a capitalistic system)

    Is there blame? If there is its all on the consumer for continuing to BUY BUY BUY.

    I cannot fault or blame a wolf for being a wolf- I know what the wolf is and what its capable of. Its all in the nature of the beast.

    <--SNIP-->

    Seriously, if you were a sheepherder and a wolf was killing and eating your sheep, would you shoot the wolf or shoot the sheep?

    Seriously?

    Place blame where it belongs.

    Fault the sheep if you want for not running away, for not being armed to the teeth with lawyers to sue the wolf, for actually hoping that the wolf just wants to be friends...

    ...but once the wolf starts killing the sheep, you need to shoot the wolf.

    Yes, thats what I would I do- Kill the Wolf (I agree) but the point I was trying to make is that I wouldnt 'blame' the wolf  for what he does naturally. I wouldnt think that just because the wolf can appear cute and puppy-like at times- He is a trusted friend.

     

    I think we are in agreement about the solution (and the wolf and the sheep herder)- In my analogy (as flawed as it is) I was hoping the shepard was taken as the journalists and consumer rights law. At the moment the shepard is distracted and thus of little use. The wolf and the shepard have an agreement (spoken or unspoken) and they are both benefitting at the expense of the sheep.

    So long as the sheep continue as they are (assuming the Shepard will protect them and the wolf is not there to do harm) nothing will change- It will take a sheep revolt or a collapse of the entire Farm. =P

    But no- I certainly dont blame any company for doing what companies do- I blame the shepard and sheep for foolishly falling for the tricks time and time again and thus encouraging this behavior.

    -If this had been nipped in the bud long ago it would be a very different industry right now- Instead we have $150 alpha access and games being presold on hype- Its an ally you can eat buffet for the wolf and the wolf is only doing what wolves do- And getting hungrier.

     

    Edit- Again, this is merely a byproduct of Capitalism in a relativley new and unregulated market (I say this as a Capitalist , myself)- If the sheep quit making themselves such an easy meal they wouldnt have attracted an entire pack of wolves- But when the pack saw how fat the ir lone friend was getting with such little work- They decided to leave the hunt and just walk into the farm. Hell, while being eaten the sheep are telling the other sheep that it feels great "I will be being eaten for years!!! Never been eaten so good!!! I am so happy!!!"

    And thus the circle of life contuinues hahahahaha.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by scritty

    I disagree completely here.

    Poison that well.

    I've begun 4 new MMO's in the last 12 months, all of them have sparked, then fizzled very quickly.

    Boring games incestuously feeding off other boring games. Nothing new.

    WoW might be an aged trope, but when a game comes out that costs more than WoW, offers nothing more in terms of gameplay than WoW then you have to ask "Why not just play WoW - or, if you hate WoW - why not just give up and do something else"

    Poison this well. Destroy it. It's full of games feeding off each other. Developers looking for a cash cow but doing so by repeating the same old mistakes that have been being made for the best part of a decade.

    WE NEED A NEW WELL - IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE POISONED THIS ONE - ITS THE DEVELOPERS LACK OF IMAGINATION

    I completely disagree with your disagreement. 

     

    .........You assume that developers are clueless. Trust me, that's far from the case. Here's the problem, name me one MMO in the last 2 years (or 5 years) that broke the mold (innovation wise) and became a critical success.......

    GW2 and TSW come to mind and I would throw Rift in also with unique souls.  Also "critical success" is subjective which is usually based of off IP, advertising budget and such. 

    Edit:

    All three games above are listed in the top 5 on MMORPG.com list of top released games.

     

     

    Great examples, really, I also loved these ones. Re: Success, TSW and Rift both had sub models as their initial method for monetization and couldn't maintain it. However, thanks to the F2P model they at least live on now.  They're perfect examples, though. Think about what these games try to innovate and those are the exact things people bitch about. Plus, it's rarely constructive.

     

    It's like you get some guy in one thread saying "TSW sucks! Combat system/AP/SP system is horrible" Then in another thread they're saying, "They need to do away with levels altogether!" You see it all the time and it's ridiculous. GW2 is exactly the same. Forget whatever they were attempting or the vision they were trying to execute on, the focus is solely on how the game is 0/10 because of X feature. 

     

    So, basically, developers are left with a bunch of data that says WoW is the greatest success. Everything else that's attempted is horrible. So let's not deviate too far from the road here. Until there's another paradigm set in the industry all roads lead back to WoW. Maybe EQ Next will be able to set this new paradigm?

     

     

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • syriinxsyriinx New York, NYPosts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sevala

     

    Anyways, poison on, or build a new well, whatever. Just stop paying people to make crappy games.

    How about stop calling games you don't like crappy?  Just dont play them and move on.  If they truly are crappy then the population will show that.

     

  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by MMOGamer71
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by scritty

    I disagree completely here.

    Poison that well.

    I've begun 4 new MMO's in the last 12 months, all of them have sparked, then fizzled very quickly.

    Boring games incestuously feeding off other boring games. Nothing new.

    WoW might be an aged trope, but when a game comes out that costs more than WoW, offers nothing more in terms of gameplay than WoW then you have to ask "Why not just play WoW - or, if you hate WoW - why not just give up and do something else"

    Poison this well. Destroy it. It's full of games feeding off each other. Developers looking for a cash cow but doing so by repeating the same old mistakes that have been being made for the best part of a decade.

    WE NEED A NEW WELL - IT'S NOT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE POISONED THIS ONE - ITS THE DEVELOPERS LACK OF IMAGINATION

    I completely disagree with your disagreement. 

     

    .........You assume that developers are clueless. Trust me, that's far from the case. Here's the problem, name me one MMO in the last 2 years (or 5 years) that broke the mold (innovation wise) and became a critical success.......

    GW2 and TSW come to mind and I would throw Rift in also with unique souls.  Also "critical success" is subjective which is usually based of off IP, advertising budget and such. 

    Edit:

    All three games above are listed in the top 5 on MMORPG.com list of top released games.

     

     

    Great examples, really, I also loved these ones. Re: Success, TSW and Rift both had sub models as their initial method for monetization and couldn't maintain it. However, thanks to the F2P model they at least live on now.  They're perfect examples, though. Think about what these games try to innovate and those are the exact things people bitch about. Plus, it's rarely constructive.

     

    It's like you get some guy in one thread saying "TSW sucks! Combat system/AP/SP system is horrible" Then in another thread they're saying, "They need to do away with levels altogether!" You see it all the time and it's ridiculous. GW2 is exactly the same. Forget whatever they were attempting or the vision they were trying to execute on, the focus is solely on how the game is 0/10 because of X feature. 

     

    So, basically, developers are left with a bunch of data that says WoW is the greatest success. Everything else that's attempted is horrible. So let's not deviate too far from the road here. Until there's another paradigm set in the industry all roads lead back to WoW. Maybe EQ Next will be able to set this new paradigm?

     

     

    No- Thats not it...

    Almost every MMO is a financial 'success' - Its that the companies are not satisfied as they are chasing WOW numbers. Very rarely do MMOs fail and most make money. In any business this is considered a total success. To run in the Black. The problem is (another analogy- sorry) the guy running the mom and pop cafe isnt happy unless hes making the same profit the Mcdonalds is thats located off the highway- 

     

    If we gauge success as having to be in the same arena as "Wow" (which is what most companies think) there will never be a success again more likely than not- Nor will there be real innovation.

     

    TSW was a bit innovative but flawed (and evident it was going to go F2P) and Rift was a WOW clone with its own flavor (and was/is decent enough)- Both of these games I am sure are financial successes. Maybe not to the point the suits in the boardroom demand. 

    EDIT_ Even Ultima Online is a subscription only game and still making mney with no development over 16 years after launch. Paid for probably a million times over and still running. But the numbers would never be "good enough" for a new MMO since they do not gauge success on profit but rather expectations that are based off of WOW in an oversaturated market of (mostly) clones and reskins.

  • syriinxsyriinx New York, NYPosts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

     

    GW2 is exactly the same. Forget whatever they were attempting or the vision they were trying to execute on, the focus is solely on how the game is 0/10 because of X feature. 

     

     

     

    Its amazing how much you hear that "GW2 sucks"

    I prefer "trinity" combat (I miss the real trinity) and tend to dislike actiony combat, so i dont play GW2.  But i did play it for a few months and it is without question in my mind an excellent game.  But its just not for me.

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by Jacxolope
    Yes, thats what I would I do- Kill the Wolf (I agree) but the point I was trying to make is that I wouldnt 'blame' the wolf  for what he does naturally. I wouldnt think that just because the wolf can appear cute and puppy-like at times- He is a trusted friend.
    I think we are in agreement about the solution (and the wolf and the sheep herder)- In my analogy (as flawed as it is) I was hoping the shepard was taken as the journalists and consumer rights law. At the moment the shepard is distracted and thus of little use. The wolf and the shepard have an agreement (spoken or unspoken) and they are both benefitting at the expense of the sheep.
    So long as the sheep continue as they are (assuming the Shepard will protect them and the wolf is not there to do harm) nothing will change- It will take a sheep revolt or a collapse of the entire Farm. =P
    But no- I certainly dont blame any company for doing what companies do- I blame the shepard and sheep for foolishly falling for the tricks time and time again and thus encouraging this behavior.
    -If this had been nipped in the bud long ago it would be a very different industry right now- Instead we have $150 alpha access and games being presold on hype- Its an ally you can eat buffet for the wolf and the wolf is only doing what wolves do- And getting hungrier.

    In principle we agree...

    I'm a retired old fart; I grew up during a time when an advertisement on TV told the truth about a product because the Consumer Protection Agency would jump all over them if they didn't.  Nowadays the Consumer Protection Agency is a toothless hyena for a number of reasons.  Of course, there were only three channels on TV back then (not counting the UHF channels over the border); they were probably easier to monitor.

    Industry in general, to include media like MMORPG.com, is focused on short-term profits.  We can blame the MBAs for changing the nature of businesses.  Once upon a time, techies like me stepped up to management responsibilities, advancing over time, and all of middle management and a lot of senior management were people who knew the technologies and the costs and schedules of implementing those technologies.  Profits were made by producing good products over  the LONG TERM by building up trust with the customer base, getting a reputation for having a good product so you brought in more customers, and maintaining that reputation so you could retain your customers.

    Things changed; you don't find many technically qualified people in even middle management these days; none in senior management.  You've got MBAs everywhere... I hate to break it to them, but an MBA isn't a managment degree; it's a business degree.  So, focus shifted in industry away from the making of quality products to making short term profits...  there is no consideration of the return on long term investment, only the return on short term investment... because that's where those middle management types get their bonuses.

    Those are your "wolves".

    You've got a management team that doesn't understand the technologies well enough to make good decsions about schedules and budgets, but knows how to maximize their bonuses... quick sales induced by shady marketing that would have gotten them fined heavily forty years ago.  The quality of the product is no longer relevant.

    The sheep need to be better educated, but at the same time, do we really want to have a world where nobody can trust anyone else?  The sheep intrinsically want to trust others, even wolves in sheep's clothing.

    So, shoot the wolves.  Shear them first, just like the sheep get sheared; it'd be fitting justice.

    God, this metaphor is getting stretched a bit too much...

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member

    One big problem with mmorpgs is that everyone who enjoys one type of mmorpg thinks that every mmorpg is aimed at them, and that pits up huge masses against eachother who like the same "genre" but different types of games in reality.

     

    A guy plays WoW in PvE server and loves that type of games, then Darkfall launches, the same guy starts posting how Darkfall sucks and he hates FFA PvP, runs into metacritic and gives the game 0-10/100 rating and says the game is shit. Then it all happens the other way around when the next PvE themepark gets launched.

     

    Not everyone is like this, but there's way too many people who does this, or absolutely has to add their forum topic how some game is shit because they dont like the style, but he has to say his piece because the game is tagged as mmorpg, his "genre".

  • FanOfSupermanFanOfSuperman Burlington, VTPosts: 137Member
    Originally posted by syriinx
    Originally posted by BearKnight

     

     

    Stop defending and apologizing for horrible products like SWTOR, GW2, and ESO. They made horrible mistakes in their development process, and failed to actually "capture" their target audiences for a REASON. 

     

    And thats just it.  I cant speak for ESO because I loathe the combat so havent bothered with it, but neither GW2 or SWTOR was a bad product.  People can't seem to understand the difference between 'bad' and 'not for them'.  I am guilty of it myself sometimes.  

     

    syriinx - The most intelligent and most honest comment in the entirety of this article and its comments section IMHO.

    The problem with society as a whole (and I too am often guilty) is that we are a 'glass half-filled' society.

    Case in point:

    How often do you actually hear players - other than those in the media trying to write an unbiased review - say, "You know, I really don't like this feature about game x, but I really enjoyed this feature." Or, "There are still ways they can improve, but it's a great start!"

    Rarely do I ever hear those types of comments come from the mouths of players. It's so often only the negative side of the coin. Rarely if ever the positive portion!

    And, almost always, when you hear a reviewer critique an MMO in a positive way, they are always, ALWAYS chastized by many, for having anything good to say about said game.

    People love to hate and condemn, because for most it's far easier than loving and prasing, or applauding something. It's far easier and sadly more rewarding for some to tear down than build up.

    I'm loving the MMO genre more than ever right now, particularly at this point in time, as there are so many choices right now for the MMO gamer. So many good choices that I can't decide which MMO to drop once WildStar comes out -- only because time and my schedule simply won't permit me to play three or four MMOs at one time.

    Yes, all MMOs have their faults, but all also have their merits as well -- and it's the merits of these MMOs that I wish more players would focus on. Try thinking positive for a change. Try changing your perspective a bit and start appreciating the good that each game has to offer.

    I often jump back and forth between MMOs because of their differences and the unique features they might have to offer. It's a blast, IMHO.

    I promise, it's so much more enjoyable and rewarding to look at things in a postivie light.

    Besides, it might even help each of us to live longer ;)

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