Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Another little talked about aspect is just like the players the majority of developers were brought in to build WoW like games. The pedigree is not there to build other types of MMORPGs.
The fact remains that there are not a lot of other AAA games that aren't themepark questhubs. IMO the reasons...
1. Imitation of a WoW. Little to none AAA development in any other type of MMORPG. 2. Culture of themepark in developers. Themepark questhubs is what most developers know after 10 years. 3. This genre is very dogmatic and rarely anyone likes to break conventional wisdom or take risk. Conventional wisdom was that everyone wanted WoW like games because WoW was 16 more popular than other MMORPGs. 4. Cost of entry and quality. Combined those with cost entry to make MMORPGS and extreme niche of indie MMORPGS you have the current situation.
Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
In case of Age of Wushu i wonder how many of those 15M are actualy active western players.
In addition your statement about AA is flawed. This game offers too much other desired mechanics(sailing, crafting, housing, farming, trading) that will attract players not interested in the ffa pvp. A pure pvp-game won't attract as many players.
Assuming you have a fully functioning RvR style system (GW2, ESO), battlegrounds, open world skirmish based PvP, arenas and duels.. it's still really not much of a game.
Beyond those areas of content, you just start scraping the barrel of content. You can get into simpler things like duels, leaderboards and community events but honestly it's just not a model that is enough to sustain.
MMOs are by nature repetitive and can be monotonous at times. We break that up by doing some dungeons, some crafting, some PvP, some chatting with friends, some mob killing, some leveling.. whatever really. When you have a game that has ONE element of that only or has sacrificed on all those other things.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
In case of Age of Wushu i wonder how many of those 15M are actualy active western players.
Irrelevant if is western players or not.
In addition your statement about AA is flawed. This game offers too much other desired mechanics(sailing, crafting, housing, farming, trading) that will attract players not interested in the ffa pvp. A pure pvp-game won't attract as many players.
The mmo has ffa ow pvp, so it should fail if the statemente "a mmo with ffa ow pvp will not be sucessfull" be correct.
Your observation supports the idea that games like Darkfall and MO aren't successful because they lack sandbox features and overall quality, not because their pvp ruleset.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
In case of Age of Wushu i wonder how many of those 15M are actualy active western players.
Irrelevant if is western players or not.
In addition your statement about AA is flawed. This game offers too much other desired mechanics(sailing, crafting, housing, farming, trading) that will attract players not interested in the ffa pvp. A pure pvp-game won't attract as many players.
The mmo has ffa ow pvp, so it should fail if the statemente "a mmo with ffa ow pvp will not be sucessfull" be correct.
Your observation supports the idea that games like Darkfall and MO aren't successful because they lack sandbox features and overall quality, not because their pvp ruleset.
At least Darkfall & Mortal Online have few things in common:
1. They promised way too much and failed to deliver
2. The combat system of both was quite.... Flawed
3. There was no interesting activities to do besides PvP (Mortal Online had interesting crafting though)
4. Both games had insane amounts of grind, forcing players to macro the skill lines up
5. Neither had any marketing besides the inhumane hypetrains
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
It has been brought up in the discussion. Since Age of Wushu doesn't have a fifteen million players in the West, it doesn't seem like a good example of a AAA OW PvP game. It doesn't prove that the game would satisfy the urge to play an OW PvP game "here".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
It has been brought up in the discussion. Since Age of Wushu doesn't have a fifteen million players in the West, it doesn't seem like a good example of a AAA OW PvP game. It doesn't prove that the game would satisfy the urge to play an OW PvP game "here".
The thread speaks about the whole world. And in fact doesn't matter (at least to me) where the server is located if the language barrier, intolerabe lag or ip block isn't preventing the play.
Someone told posts behind that Age of Wushu (a ow pvp mmo) has 15 million players. If it's true, so is a example of a loud big success of a ow pvp mmo. Why is this ignored in the discussion? Add to this the Lineage and EvE examples.
I think ArcheAge will help settle this question. If AA becomes a succesfull and profitable mmo, so the statemente that a ow ffa pvp mmo cant be suscefull will be proven wrong and instead is its execution and the overall mmo quality itself the responsible by their success or failure.
It has been brought up in the discussion. Since Age of Wushu doesn't have a fifteen million players in the West, it doesn't seem like a good example of a AAA OW PvP game. It doesn't prove that the game would satisfy the urge to play an OW PvP game "here".
The thread speaks about the whole world. And in fact doesn't matter (at least to me) where the server is located if the language barrier, intolerabe lag or ip block isn't preventing the play.
Then this thread serves no point. Go play Age of Wushu and stop whining about the lack of OW/FFA PvP MMORPGs.
**
That was rude. I apologize. Obviously there are enough people in the world to support an OW PvP MMORPG. There are even enough people in the West. Very many of them play WoW on PvP servers.
The devil is in the details though. Look at how many people sign up for PvP MMORPGs in the side of the planet that we play on. Far fewer than in Asia. It doesn't matter if there are enough people in the world, if there aren't enough people in the area in which I live to make developing such a game commercially viable.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Considering that AoW has been localised in English not once but twice (the European and North American versions are different) and the NA version has been up and running for quite some time, I'd say that there is at least some type of market for it (the banner on this site right now is for AoW).
No it will never get 15 million accounts here. It's simply difficult to get into, even when localised.
However, one thing that game does right is that it has a lot of different activities available that are almost all player driven. It isn't an empty world where people can bash each others face in (like many of our PvP mmo's), but a world filled with lots of things that lead to PvP.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
From my years back in Ultima Online beta and getting my 14 year old son and his friends into it showed me that him and his friends loved the PVP aspect of the game. Now back then UO was the PVP game that helped start PVP off. You died you lost everything you had on you. Have a house lose your key, bam house gone. Also running in the forest and I mean you never seen the dude hiding behind the tree and bam bush wacked.
THOSE WERE THE DAYS! :-D
My point being counting myself who you can call a little of a care bear (more into the crafting exploring game) and my son and his friends it was always 1 out of 10 that didn't like PVP (me being the 1). So I always knew PVP world would be the bigger part of the MMO culture.
Which brings us to today! I know a very large group would love the UO PVP world if death meant something. Revenge counted in the game. But there is also a very large group of players today that started with WOW and could never play a real PVP game. I think that is where the problem lies today. But is it really a big problem in today's games? That is the question we need to answer.
My point being counting myself who you can call a little of a care bear (more into the crafting exploring game) and my son and his friends it was always 1 out of 10 that didn't like PVP (me being the 1). So I always knew PVP world would be the bigger part of the MMO culture.
Which brings us to today! I know a very large group would love the UO PVP world if death meant something. Revenge counted in the game. But there is also a very large group of players today that started with WOW and could never play a real PVP game. I think that is where the problem lies today. But is it really a big problem in today's games? That is the question we need to answer.
No it is not a big problem, the problem is your way of looking at it. The people who do not want PvP are perfectly happy and content with NOT paying (in any way including Freemium games) for PvP games (because they do not over a longer period of time). The people who want PVP are obsessed with the task of trying to convert the PVE crowd to PvP, including tools and mechanisms to force them to PVP (probably for their own good or something).
If PVP was this big wonderful thing that everybody wanted, lots of large game companies would do AAA PvP games because it would be good BUSINESS. They are not doing that and the reason is that it is not good BUSINESS as the customers are not there (and ideas to force people to PvP are as bright and acceptable as ideas to force people to buy Ford cars).
My point being counting myself who you can call a little of a care bear (more into the crafting exploring game) and my son and his friends it was always 1 out of 10 that didn't like PVP (me being the 1). So I always knew PVP world would be the bigger part of the MMO culture.
Which brings us to today! I know a very large group would love the UO PVP world if death meant something. Revenge counted in the game. But there is also a very large group of players today that started with WOW and could never play a real PVP game. I think that is where the problem lies today. But is it really a big problem in today's games? That is the question we need to answer.
No it is not a big problem, the problem is your way of looking at it. The people who do not want PvP are perfectly happy and content with NOT paying (in any way including Freemium games) for PvP games (because they do not over a longer period of time). The people who want PVP are obsessed with the task of trying to convert the PVE crowd to PvP, including tools and mechanisms to force them to PVP (probably for their own good or something).
If PVP was this big wonderful thing that everybody wanted, lots of large game companies would do AAA PvP games because it would be good BUSINESS. They are not doing that and the reason is that it is not good BUSINESS as the customers are not there (and ideas to force people to PvP are as bright and acceptable as ideas to force people to buy Ford cars)
Honestly.. That is just bullshit. Noone needs PvE player, or player not interested in PvP in a pvp game. And there is a huge market.. truth is.. there was just no worthy attempt on persistent world pvp since internet exploded.
Noone thought Mobas would explode like they did. Now they are the most played games.. and they are more or less pvp only.
Noone thought a hardcore permadeath game like DayZ could do well.. nevertheless they sold over 2 million within 4 weeks of there prerelease(alpha).. and the Mod before made ArmA(a long forgot game to that point) leading steam charts for month.
Battlefield and other pvp only games do incrideble well.. and are now working on their fifth itteration, and every single one sold on mass.
And there will be at some point a new kind of persistent world pvp game(aka some kind of MMO) with a success noone can imagine. Point is.. there are no well made pvp MMOs out there.. all are just attempts do deliver something, most are very bad made Indy MMOs trying to bring back some kind of pvp from the past(MO and DF as UO/Shadowbane rip-off.. other were never intended as pvp games, like UO, Asherons Call and so on... others tried to copy the BF formula on larger scale, like Planetside.. but not one pvp MMO really got the persistent world MMO as it could be.
Truth is.. pvp games of all kinds are nowadays the most popular and played games, and on top of that do have the longest longevity. (StarCraft, Counter Strike, Team Fortress) And in most cases even a lot cheaper to develop, because you just need to have the basics right.. the players will deliver the fresh content(in most parts) on their own.
The problem is, that most people think about PvP MMOs, of past games, which were in most parts PvE games, with PvP as a afterthough, or a unwanted accident.. but WoW, AsheronsCall or Ultima Online and a lot of others were never intended to be PvP games.
What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers, the good guys and the bad guys. Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world. Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world. Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world. Economy only exists if you make one. No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.
You want epic armor? You need to gather materials on your own and craft it. You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors. If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players. If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded. Just like in the real world.
No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot. Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Another little talked about aspect is just like the players the majority of developers were brought in to build WoW like games. The pedigree is not there to build other types of MMORPGs.
The fact remains that there are not a lot of other AAA games that aren't themepark questhubs. IMO the reasons...
1. Imitation of a WoW. Little to none AAA development in any other type of MMORPG. 2. Culture of themepark in developers. Themepark questhubs is what most developers know after 10 years. 3. This genre is very dogmatic and rarely anyone likes to break conventional wisdom or take risk. Conventional wisdom was that everyone wanted WoW like games because WoW was 16 more popular than other MMORPGs. 4. Cost of entry and quality. Combined those with cost entry to make MMORPGS and extreme niche of indie MMORPGS you have the current situation.
Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.
How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have? Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers, the good guys and the bad guys. Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world. Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world. Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world. Economy only exists if you make one. No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.
You want epic armor? You need to gather materials on your own and craft it. You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors. If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players. If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded. Just like in the real world.
No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot. Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.
Go ahead and do that and you'll have a desolate ghost town MMO that will be shut down within a year or a couple of years with substantial investment.
And in the real world we do have NPCs, they are your gov't entities, order keeping, hotel receptionist, ect ect who all they care about is doing their days work and can give a rats ass about people but fulfill their role.
Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.
How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have? Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.
Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.
What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers, the good guys and the bad guys. Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world. Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world. Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world. Economy only exists if you make one. No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.
You want epic armor? You need to gather materials on your own and craft it. You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors. If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players. If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded. Just like in the real world.
No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot. Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.
Go ahead and do that and you'll have a desolate ghost town MMO that will be shut down within a year or a couple of years with substantial investment.
And in the real world we do have NPCs, they are your gov't entities, order keeping, hotel receptionist, ect ect who all they care about is doing their days work and can give a rats ass about people but fulfill their role.
Worst ideal...ever.
Your telling me that cute receptionist at the hotel down the street is a robot? Damn, I would have never known....
No, I don't think there are enough PvPers to sustain a big budget OW PvP MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough roleplayers to sustain a big budget OW roleplaying MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough crafters to sustain a big budget OW economic/crafting MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough slow-playing, exploring hardcores to sustain a big budget OW exploration/big world (no insta-travel) MMO...
BUT, there ARE enough PvPers, roleplayers, crafters, old-school explorers, storytellers, world-builders and traders to sustain a big budget, OW MMO with features that every one of the groups would like. That's the good news!
The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features. The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP. And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.
Hopefully, we will all start to put aside our differences, compromise on some of our deeply-held aversions, to get the kind of game we want. But this has got to be a quid-pro-quo deal. We can't have open-world PvP unless the gankers are willing to support roleplaying (IC and OOC protocols), item decay, anti-AFK enforcement, long travel and assorted other niche interests. But if the gankers CAN support those systems, we might--we can hope--get the game we all want.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The problem is the maturity of most Pvpers. A lot of that Open World Pvp = Pure ganking. This ganking is in a good amount of the cases just griefing, hitting people who can't fight back. When those people can't get that advantage (if sandbox its likely those who spent more time would have an advantage) they tend to quit the game and leave it in the dust.
Theres not a shortage of players, its just a shortage of people who will stick around, with only those who get that initial hold on power that will likely stick it out as the others simply will quit for not being able to catch up, and those who don't like that "no effort" kill on them to just leave the game.
More people would support Open World PvP if it wasn't a Gank fest focused solely upon killing only when the big advantage is given to them. Even then Its likely to turn into a one sided mess where the other side will just give up to the other with superior numbers and power, an issue we see in games like WoW or Rift where one faction will completely outnumber the other as "Open World Pvpers" seek the winning side without needing any skill.
The whole pretence of MMO PvP is to out level, out gear or out number your opponent. Skill is far down the list and it is purposely designed that way so that people who could never get a kill in a skill based 1v1 PvP game have a home. Its basically the Lion v the Hyena's scenario. There are some great gamers at the elite PvP level but all the rest are just Hyena's doing what Hyena's do.
There's 7 billion people on this blue ball we call Earth. I think there might actually be enough amongst all those bodies who have both the tech and desire.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
It's more like there aren't enough carebears to sustain a big budget OW (or CW actually) carebear mmo.
You want evidence you say? Just name me one MMO that identifies itself as carebearish... and i 'll name you at least 10 that identify themselves as PVP mmos.
Originally posted by Pyuk There's 7 billion people on this blue ball we call Earth. I think there might actually be enough amongst all those bodies who have both the tech and desire.
Most can't even afford a smart phone, not to mention a computer with internet access to play video games.
The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features. The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP. And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.
[...]
You guys just hate PvPers, that's all. The most roleplaying i have ever seen happening in a MMO, was (in ascending order) 1) on Face of Mankind (pure PvP madness) and 2) on Warhammer Online, a game focused on PvP as well.
If you really want to point out a group of players that doesn't respect roleplayers, that would be achievers.
Comments
Actually, many developers seem to be "one hit wonders" leading one to believe that they don't have any more skill than the rest. They could've been at the right place at the right time with the right(-enough) product.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In case of Age of Wushu i wonder how many of those 15M are actualy active western players.
In addition your statement about AA is flawed. This game offers too much other desired mechanics(sailing, crafting, housing, farming, trading) that will attract players not interested in the ffa pvp. A pure pvp-game won't attract as many players.
An entirely PvP focused title is limited.
Assuming you have a fully functioning RvR style system (GW2, ESO), battlegrounds, open world skirmish based PvP, arenas and duels.. it's still really not much of a game.
Beyond those areas of content, you just start scraping the barrel of content. You can get into simpler things like duels, leaderboards and community events but honestly it's just not a model that is enough to sustain.
MMOs are by nature repetitive and can be monotonous at times. We break that up by doing some dungeons, some crafting, some PvP, some chatting with friends, some mob killing, some leveling.. whatever really. When you have a game that has ONE element of that only or has sacrificed on all those other things.
Irrelevant if is western players or not.
The mmo has ffa ow pvp, so it should fail if the statemente "a mmo with ffa ow pvp will not be sucessfull" be correct.
Your observation supports the idea that games like Darkfall and MO aren't successful because they lack sandbox features and overall quality, not because their pvp ruleset.
At least Darkfall & Mortal Online have few things in common:
1. They promised way too much and failed to deliver
2. The combat system of both was quite.... Flawed
3. There was no interesting activities to do besides PvP (Mortal Online had interesting crafting though)
4. Both games had insane amounts of grind, forcing players to macro the skill lines up
5. Neither had any marketing besides the inhumane hypetrains
It has been brought up in the discussion. Since Age of Wushu doesn't have a fifteen million players in the West, it doesn't seem like a good example of a AAA OW PvP game. It doesn't prove that the game would satisfy the urge to play an OW PvP game "here".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The thread speaks about the whole world. And in fact doesn't matter (at least to me) where the server is located if the language barrier, intolerabe lag or ip block isn't preventing the play.
Then this thread serves no point. Go play Age of Wushu and stop whining about the lack of OW/FFA PvP MMORPGs.
**
That was rude. I apologize. Obviously there are enough people in the world to support an OW PvP MMORPG. There are even enough people in the West. Very many of them play WoW on PvP servers.
The devil is in the details though. Look at how many people sign up for PvP MMORPGs in the side of the planet that we play on. Far fewer than in Asia. It doesn't matter if there are enough people in the world, if there aren't enough people in the area in which I live to make developing such a game commercially viable.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Considering that AoW has been localised in English not once but twice (the European and North American versions are different) and the NA version has been up and running for quite some time, I'd say that there is at least some type of market for it (the banner on this site right now is for AoW).
No it will never get 15 million accounts here. It's simply difficult to get into, even when localised.
However, one thing that game does right is that it has a lot of different activities available that are almost all player driven. It isn't an empty world where people can bash each others face in (like many of our PvP mmo's), but a world filled with lots of things that lead to PvP.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
From my years back in Ultima Online beta and getting my 14 year old son and his friends into it showed me that him and his friends loved the PVP aspect of the game. Now back then UO was the PVP game that helped start PVP off. You died you lost everything you had on you. Have a house lose your key, bam house gone. Also running in the forest and I mean you never seen the dude hiding behind the tree and bam bush wacked.
THOSE WERE THE DAYS! :-D
My point being counting myself who you can call a little of a care bear (more into the crafting exploring game) and my son and his friends it was always 1 out of 10 that didn't like PVP (me being the 1). So I always knew PVP world would be the bigger part of the MMO culture.
Which brings us to today! I know a very large group would love the UO PVP world if death meant something. Revenge counted in the game. But there is also a very large group of players today that started with WOW and could never play a real PVP game. I think that is where the problem lies today. But is it really a big problem in today's games? That is the question we need to answer.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
No it is not a big problem, the problem is your way of looking at it. The people who do not want PvP are perfectly happy and content with NOT paying (in any way including Freemium games) for PvP games (because they do not over a longer period of time). The people who want PVP are obsessed with the task of trying to convert the PVE crowd to PvP, including tools and mechanisms to force them to PVP (probably for their own good or something).
If PVP was this big wonderful thing that everybody wanted, lots of large game companies would do AAA PvP games because it would be good BUSINESS. They are not doing that and the reason is that it is not good BUSINESS as the customers are not there (and ideas to force people to PvP are as bright and acceptable as ideas to force people to buy Ford cars).
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
Honestly.. That is just bullshit. Noone needs PvE player, or player not interested in PvP in a pvp game. And there is a huge market.. truth is.. there was just no worthy attempt on persistent world pvp since internet exploded.
Noone thought Mobas would explode like they did. Now they are the most played games.. and they are more or less pvp only.
Noone thought a hardcore permadeath game like DayZ could do well.. nevertheless they sold over 2 million within 4 weeks of there prerelease(alpha).. and the Mod before made ArmA(a long forgot game to that point) leading steam charts for month.
Battlefield and other pvp only games do incrideble well.. and are now working on their fifth itteration, and every single one sold on mass.
And there will be at some point a new kind of persistent world pvp game(aka some kind of MMO) with a success noone can imagine. Point is.. there are no well made pvp MMOs out there.. all are just attempts do deliver something, most are very bad made Indy MMOs trying to bring back some kind of pvp from the past(MO and DF as UO/Shadowbane rip-off.. other were never intended as pvp games, like UO, Asherons Call and so on... others tried to copy the BF formula on larger scale, like Planetside.. but not one pvp MMO really got the persistent world MMO as it could be.
Truth is.. pvp games of all kinds are nowadays the most popular and played games, and on top of that do have the longest longevity. (StarCraft, Counter Strike, Team Fortress) And in most cases even a lot cheaper to develop, because you just need to have the basics right.. the players will deliver the fresh content(in most parts) on their own.
The problem is, that most people think about PvP MMOs, of past games, which were in most parts PvE games, with PvP as a afterthough, or a unwanted accident.. but WoW, AsheronsCall or Ultima Online and a lot of others were never intended to be PvP games.
What they need to do is create a massive open world in which there are no NPCs at all... the players become the inn keepers, the good guys and the bad guys. Everyone is killable by anyone... just as it is in the real world. Anyone can destroy anything, just as it is in the real world. Anyone can build anything, just as it is in the real world. Economy only exists if you make one. No in game currency (i.e. gold), just crafted/harvested consumables.
You want epic armor? You need to gather materials on your own and craft it. You will have to fight for limited resources, defend your plots of land, seize supplies from your neighbors. If you play the game at odd hours, you won't see as many if any players. If you play a peak hours, you may find it very crowded. Just like in the real world.
No more killing of monsters the size of Manhatten for loot. Godzilla doesn't live down the street from you, your neighbor does... and he wields a weed whacker... deal with it.
How many hit games do all the armchair developers on mmorpg.com have? Having 1 hit game isn't looking so bad anymore.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Go ahead and do that and you'll have a desolate ghost town MMO that will be shut down within a year or a couple of years with substantial investment.
And in the real world we do have NPCs, they are your gov't entities, order keeping, hotel receptionist, ect ect who all they care about is doing their days work and can give a rats ass about people but fulfill their role.
Worst ideal...ever.
Why do one have to produce a hit game to criticize games? Most movie critics don't make movies. I don't see why i need to be Joss Wheldon to decide if The Avengers is a good movie for me.
Your telling me that cute receptionist at the hotel down the street is a robot? Damn, I would have never known....
No, I don't think there are enough PvPers to sustain a big budget OW PvP MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough roleplayers to sustain a big budget OW roleplaying MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough crafters to sustain a big budget OW economic/crafting MMO...
...Just like there aren't enough slow-playing, exploring hardcores to sustain a big budget OW exploration/big world (no insta-travel) MMO...
BUT, there ARE enough PvPers, roleplayers, crafters, old-school explorers, storytellers, world-builders and traders to sustain a big budget, OW MMO with features that every one of the groups would like. That's the good news!
The bad news is that the PvPers tend not to respect roleplay, or rules against Macro/AFK play, or things like item decay, or long distances they can't insta-bypass, or building/fluff features. The other factions also tend not to like open-world PvP. And these divisions came to a head in what I dubbed "the great playstyle wars" of 2001-2008, where entire factions of players pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles like PvP, roleplay, and crafting as irrelevant and illegitimate to want in an MMO.
Hopefully, we will all start to put aside our differences, compromise on some of our deeply-held aversions, to get the kind of game we want. But this has got to be a quid-pro-quo deal. We can't have open-world PvP unless the gankers are willing to support roleplaying (IC and OOC protocols), item decay, anti-AFK enforcement, long travel and assorted other niche interests. But if the gankers CAN support those systems, we might--we can hope--get the game we all want.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The problem is the maturity of most Pvpers. A lot of that Open World Pvp = Pure ganking. This ganking is in a good amount of the cases just griefing, hitting people who can't fight back. When those people can't get that advantage (if sandbox its likely those who spent more time would have an advantage) they tend to quit the game and leave it in the dust.
Theres not a shortage of players, its just a shortage of people who will stick around, with only those who get that initial hold on power that will likely stick it out as the others simply will quit for not being able to catch up, and those who don't like that "no effort" kill on them to just leave the game.
More people would support Open World PvP if it wasn't a Gank fest focused solely upon killing only when the big advantage is given to them. Even then Its likely to turn into a one sided mess where the other side will just give up to the other with superior numbers and power, an issue we see in games like WoW or Rift where one faction will completely outnumber the other as "Open World Pvpers" seek the winning side without needing any skill.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
It's more like there aren't enough carebears to sustain a big budget OW (or CW actually) carebear mmo.
You want evidence you say? Just name me one MMO that identifies itself as carebearish... and i 'll name you at least 10 that identify themselves as PVP mmos.
Most can't even afford a smart phone, not to mention a computer with internet access to play video games.
You guys just hate PvPers, that's all. The most roleplaying i have ever seen happening in a MMO, was (in ascending order) 1) on Face of Mankind (pure PvP madness) and 2) on Warhammer Online, a game focused on PvP as well.
If you really want to point out a group of players that doesn't respect roleplayers, that would be achievers.
Sorry but the answer is no.
The worst thing i find about pvp players is that when they lose, they blame the other class for being overpowered.
So you see the threads full of Pally is OP needs a nerf or Fire Mage is OP needs a nerf.
The worst part about that is the devs usually listen to a few whiny players and ruin the class for everybody else.
Which creates animosity and players leave very quickly.