Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The main problem is game design

2»

Comments

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by angzt

    actually, no, that is not the problem.

     

    that is the main feature, the game design. they didnt wanna make another WoW. WoW has been done, why do it again?

    this game works, you dont like it? well, maybe you are not the target audience then, ever concidered that part?

    Think about what you're saying... a WHOLE LOT of people have decided they're NOT the target audience and they've already left.  I suspect a whole lot more are going to leave.  At what point in time does that make the game no longer sustainable?

    If the game doesn't appeal to a whole lot of people of many different playstyles, then the game will not generate enough revenue to be something Zenimax will continue to support over the long term; that's basic economics and basic business, not rocket science.  They've had not just a rocky, but quite frankly a bad launch -- no amount of shils in the forums and bogus paid-for reviews by people like Bill Murphy is going to change that -- and they've lost a lot of customers already.

    So, yes, it is part of the problem.  The idea may be fine, but the implementation wasn't.  They need to win back subscribers, and they can't do that with BS marketing campaigns.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by angzt

     

     maybe you are not the target audience then, ever concidered that part?

    That's possible.  It's also possible he was the target audience and ZOS just failed at earning his business.  That's also something to consider.  My guess would be that ZOS's target audience is people who like MMOs and Elder Scrolls games.  However, after seeing ESO it would seem that the MMO format and Elder Scrolls mix as well as oil and water.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 franklin, NYPosts: 600Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by primalooze

    If it goes FTP i quit.... love what ive seen of ESO so far (VR2), but i quit eq2 when FTP ruined it (played 5+ years)... swtor when it FTP ruined it (2 Years)... tried AOC (1 year at launch and later a few months after FTP) ... and then finally Neverwinter.... the bastard child of FTP when you need to spend £50 a month to even compete end game...full of loosers and griefers.... I vote with my feet. and leave..  i ultimatly hope anybody who wants eso to go FTP fecks off to some other crappy game... enjoys reaching max level within 3 hours then switching game... all the while trolling these forums and complaining like bitches .... as long as they feck of somewhere else.... £10 a month is less than i spend on lunch every day and and an mmo at that price is very good value for money as long as they are commited to bringing out new content.

    I Started playing MMORPG games 20 years ago... played most of them... loved a few.... content is what keeps a game alive... a dev could create a 10/10 game... but if they cant keep new content coming on a regular basis they are screwed and thier game will die. That means expansiones evey 12 months and least 3 big updates a year minimum... or players get bored...bugs are inconsequential to the majority of players... for the record... ive only seen 1 group of botters and seen 3 gold spam messages in my entire time playing ESO...nowhere near as bad as eq2 was at launch.

    Most of the trolls on this forum are either devs for rival games or paid trolls...(we all know this is true)

     

    Haha that fit perfectly 

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeymere
    Originally posted by Alders

    The problem is game design but i don't share your positive outlook about it being fixed.  I don't think it can be fixed, much like i SWTOR couldn't be fixed.  The game was designed with far too much instancing and phasing to be corrected, much like TOR was as well.

    Some players may not be bothered by this, which is absolutely fine, but it drives me bonkers trying to do stuff with other players out in the world.  It completely ruins what MMO's are to me.

    I was wondering about this.  I played all of the betas.  I submited all the tickets about group phasing.  The game released with that still not working.  A month later still the same issues with people phasing in and out of quests and not able to help friends etc.

    I am sure, they have to be able to fix this, right??? Why haven't they yet even during beta and 1 month after launch?

     

    Z.

     

    It's a product of them starting the game 5 years ago.  That's a really long time in MMO years and a lot has changed from a player's perspective.  I have a feeling they thought players would be alright with the "online single player MMO"  formula, much like SWTOR did.  They were wrong.

    Playing with others and grouping should be the first and main focus of any MMO.  That's the entire freaking point of them.  I can put up with bugs, a lack of content, and a dwindling player base.  What i cannot and will not compromise on is the ability to play with whom i want  and when i want.

  • NecropsieNecropsie BursaPosts: 142Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by primalooze

     Most of the trolls on this forum are either devs for rival games or paid trolls...(we all know this is true)

     

    With this logic, you are a paid poster and/or a ESO developer. (We all know this is true)

    Stages of a new mmo: 1) It's just beta. It still has plenty of time before release. 2) It just launched. Give it time. WoW wasn't built in a day. 3) We don't need you anyway. 4) F2P announced. 5)Huge influx of players. 6) Look how much has changed. 7) Cash shop is the only thing developed lately. 8) It has been a long journey and we thank everyone who was part of it. Shutting down in 3 months. (Courtesy of Robokapp.)

  • KinadoKinado lisbonPosts: 198Member

    It's true that the main problem of ESO resides in its design. The way the game was meant to be played and therefore built upon, it just isn't fun. It's too linear for a MMO and specially for an elder scrolls game.

    It's all about questing until your eyes pop out but even with questing the game excels with bugs and phasing desynchs. We are magically phased out of every other faction while outside Cyrodiil forcing us to play in "PVE servers" whether we like it or not.

    For them to turn ESO into a proper MMO the game needs an overhaul.

    They said it was an interesting idea turning all zones to veteran rank 10 once we reached that level, this in addition with letting veteran rank 10 people phase in the zones amongst players of other factions could make the game immensily fun. They need to give an option so people can stick with PVE-only phasing too or else its cry-me-a-river all over again.

    Of course for this to be interesting the game needs dynamic events where NPC's actually do something instead of standing in front of targets without attacking like stupid robots. Dark Anchors should attack villages instead of being isolated events, things like that.

    Sandbox features man, sandbox! Developers have to be OUT OF THEIR MINDS to make themepark MMO's that are so linear and unchallenging in 2014 and expect a profit.

    The only reason ESO might make it in the long run if they really commit to improving the game, is because of the game engine. It runs really smooth and handles a lot. SWTOR failed and keeps failing because its engine can't handle a thing, even today the framerate is very inconsistent with nothing happening around.

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Maybe Naoki Yoshida (FFXIV - ARR) is available to fix this mess...  Zenimax needs to take a cue from Square Enix.
  • MalaboogaMalabooga aadadaPosts: 1,536Member Uncommon

    All that was already known and pointed out in beta (with myriad of other things). And all design decisions.

    Bugs and gltches just add to negative.

    And to the people who repeat ad nauseum "it will be fixed" - when? They ARE running out of time and atm they are preoccupied with basic fixes. WTF does it matter if they "fix" it in a year or two? How many people will actually remain to play (and pay) and just hang around for "fixes" (that may or may not come and without any timeline)? Especially when there is great alternative for free.

  • DatastarDatastar Austin, TXPosts: 195Member Common
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by angzt

    actually, no, that is not the problem.

     

    that is the main feature, the game design. they didnt wanna make another WoW. WoW has been done, why do it again?

    this game works, you dont like it? well, maybe you are not the target audience then, ever concidered that part?

    What is the difference between core vanilla WoW mechanic - level via questing

    and 

    ESO core mechanic -level via questing?

    The core thempark mechanic is the same - level via questing.

    How do majority of players in ESO level - via questing.

    The basic game mechanic is identical.

     

    the difference is in WoW you can "Choose" dungeons, pvp, questing and its all viable in eso only the questing is effective.   Now add about 300-400 hours of it to be complete and you go completely nuts and never want an alt, how many alts did you roll in wow?  Problem isnt mechanics its the execution of said mechanics.

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by d_20

    Originally posted by Beastn
    Every time a eso will fail thread is created a angel gets its wings...

    I don't think you read, but thanks for your contribution. I didn't say it's going to fail. I said it's going to go f2p and I gave my reasons for thinking so.

     

    Going f2p is not failing. That's not what I'm talking about. I am suggesting that ESO will need to make some changes and I believe ZOS will make some changes. I hope this thread will generate some discussion on the types of changes that could be feasible to make ESO work as intended -- with a thriving 3-faction pvp core.

     

    So let's say it does go f2p... You gonna quit? No game I can recall has ever went f2p and completely dropped a pay option. So you can keep your sub and there will be a shit ton of new players. What's the issue?
  • jpaprockijpaprocki Davisville, WVPosts: 269Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by d_20

    Okay, I'm not an expert in game design. I'm just a guy who plays a lot of games. There is a lot about this game that I love. But if we are going to be honest, there are a lot of problems as well. The things I'm going to talk about are, of course, based on my experiences in the game and my observations of my guild's participation in the game.

     

    TLDR: Because of (faulty in my opinion) game design, this game will go ftp within the year. I know others have predicted this. I hate this and I wanted to believe it was not true. My reasoning is below.

     

    1 XP Potion Placeholder for future CS? I got this item as a quest reward. Tonic of Accelerated Time. When I got it, the name sounded like something that might give an xp boost. I couldn't use it. Here is a thread in the official forum. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82790/tonic-of-accelerated-time

    I didn't see why it would be necessary to get through the level 1-50 content, but after reaching VR 1, I can now see that a lot of people would be interested in this type of potion because of the game design making the VR levels much harder to get through.

     

    2 This game needs a lot of people in AvA (Cyrodiil) to be fun in the long-term, but fewer people are participating. This game was designed around three faction pvp in a very large open zone. If it is empty and if people are not participating, the heart of the game is gutted. Questing won't keep people around for long. And leveling alts is not attractive in this game. If people hit a wall grinding VR levels, they will quit.

     

    3 The VR grind is way over-the-top for today's casual gamers. So, people are going to quit after they hit 50 and realize what is in front of them. That means the VR10 (possible exploiters from what I understand) vamps (I know there is going to be "a fix" for the vamps) who are currently farming noobs in Cyrodiil at will, are going to drive away lower level players. It's not fun for them.

    I get that the leveling from VR1-12 might be kind of old school, but if you have a game designed around a system that needs a lot of people (3 faction pvp in Cyrodiil) to be fun, then when you drive away casual gamers, the game will dry up. People won't pay subs to be farmed in Cyrodiil, or to be forced to group to level from VR 6-12. You pretty much need to group if you can to have any fun leveling from VR 1-5, in my opinion. That's bad because it wasn't really necessary at all for levels 1-50 where most of the people in my guild still are and where I assume most casual players still are.

     

    My guild has about 250 members with turn over. New people are coming in, people leave, there is a steady core. They were mainly centered in GW2. Most people in my guild came over to ESO because they wanted to pvp together like we did in GW2 -- That is our main guild activity at least twice a week -- with a core of people who go to WvW every day. They thought this would be possible in ESO. On a typical evening at prime time we have 40 people active for guild events. They were nearly all in ESO after launch. Now, they are moving back to GW2. I can see who is where in Team Speak. We had about 8-10 people in ESO last night.

     

    There are a few of us still grinding away at VRs, grouping up sometimes and having fun, but far fewer people to play with than before. This is normal for games after the first month, I know. But it doesn't bode well for AvA.

     

    I hope I am wrong, but based on these observations (forget about bugs, etc.) this is what I see.

     

    Someone please tell me I'm wrong and that all this will be worked out, ESO will stay sub-based, there won't be xp potions in the cash shop, and AvA will be thriving 6 months from now.

     

     

     

     

     

    Although I don't share your opinions about it being F2P in a year, you do have some valid points.  You have to remember though that this game is designed to please two different crowds; the TES fan and the typical MMO fan.  They have to try and keep both happy.  Some of the things you talk about are a direct result of trying to please both crowds.  They can't push it to far either direction.  This may be there downfall, but only time will tell.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • OziiusOziius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone

    Maybe Naoki Yoshida (FFXIV - ARR) is available to fix this mess...  Zenimax needs to take a cue from Square Enix.

     

    What? Make a shitty game, cancel it, make it slightly less shitty and re-release it? Yeah... That's what I want.
  • ShamorauShamorau melbournePosts: 173Member Uncommon

    I really dont understand why the pvp gankers come to a blatant pve game and then complain about the lack of pvp. pvp for ESO was third on the list of things they needed behind the pve(questing) and crafting. so its not that important. wanna pvp go play a dedicated pvp game. that way you can gank till your hearts content. instead you waste your time complaining about a pve game.

     

    for the parts they need to address, is the spammers, bots and public dungeons. The other night you couldnt go anywhere in Stonefells without running into both especially near jute. i hate going into a dungeon thats already been cleared by the guys 1 minute in front of me. just plain sux. if they do something about that the game is good, solid. 

     

    I do hope that they have enough numbers that this game doesn't go f2p as it keeps trollbait away. complain all you want but you have to pay something for your entertainment.

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by Havekk
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
    Maybe Naoki Yoshida (FFXIV - ARR) is available to fix this mess...  Zenimax needs to take a cue from Square Enix.

     

    What? Make a shitty game, cancel it, make it slightly less shitty and re-release it? Yeah... That's what I want.

    Obviously, you haven't read the latest formal reviews.

    The game's not my cup of tea, but it's apparently very well liked by a lot of people.  And, FWIW, Mr. Yoshida didn't make the original game; he did the remake after Square Enix fired the original development team... which is what ZOS needs to do.

    Here; try this review: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/05/02/final-fantasy-xiv-realm-reborn-review-biggest-turnaround-in-video-game-history/

    That's from FoxNews, no less, not a gaming site like MMORPG.com with paid advertisements pretending to be reviews.  I want to see ESO get a review from FoxNews...

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    The inevitable loud exodus of locusts will occur in the next week as the subs kick in. They will all be justyfing their departure with a wide variety of reasons (as they do after the first 4-6 weeks in every new MMO).

     

    Then we'll be left with the real fans as well as a bunch of people that secretly believe everything on the "planned feature list" will actually be delivered in the next 4 to 6 weeks. That latter group will be posting doom threads for the next month where they predict that "if feature X isn't implemented NAO" the game will be F2P in a month or two and/or they'll cancel their sub. None of them ever internalise the fact that "during the rest of 2014" could be 6 months or longer. Many of these people are already posting about how all the bugs STILL haven't been fixed, as if it's 4 months (not 4 weeks) since launch.

     

    The future of the game hinges on the success of the console launch. If that goes well, it's rainbows and roses and many years of happy gameplay for all in Tamriel. If the uptake on consoles is dissappointing, all bets are off.

    Somehow, I don't think that Zenimax will be willing to have ESO just limping along generating insufficient cash to fund it's ambitous future content plans. Or will they be content to subsidize development and take a long-term approach to success ? A new single-player ES game can't be too far away, and it's arrival will be a renewed marketing boost for ESO.

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon
    At this point, my opinion is that the IP should never have gone to zeni. They are completely overwhelmed and out of their league with this game. I think after the next couple months you will start to see heads roll at Zenimax along with a fairly substantial downsizing of their staff. This of course is assuming the console release doesn't hit it's target and they continue to bleed subs from PC as well. The game will hold on but it's going to take 8-12 months of patching to fix the game and make it long-term viable at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if the game was making a transition to a hybrid F2P model by this time next year with new content available as DLC packs along with season passes like you see on steam.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilized
    At this point, my opinion is that the IP should never have gone to zeni.

    It didn't "go" to them, their parent company owns it.

    It feels like their purpose was to make use of the IP for the mmo.

  • ChicagoCubChicagoCub Chicago, ILPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by Havekk
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
    Maybe Naoki Yoshida (FFXIV - ARR) is available to fix this mess...  Zenimax needs to take a cue from Square Enix.

     

    What? Make a shitty game, cancel it, make it slightly less shitty and re-release it? Yeah... That's what I want.

    Well they've already done the first part.  The question is what are they prepared to do to fix it?

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon
    Rights to the IP went to Zenimax, that's why they were able to make a game with elder scrolls in the name.
  • MeridiasBeaconMeridiasBeacon baltimore, MDPosts: 86Member
    Originally posted by d_20

    Okay, I'm not an expert in game design. I'm just a guy who plays a lot of games. There is a lot about this game that I love. But if we are going to be honest, there are a lot of problems as well. The things I'm going to talk about are, of course, based on my experiences in the game and my observations of my guild's participation in the game.

     

    TLDR: Because of (faulty in my opinion) game design, this game will go ftp within the year. I know others have predicted this. I hate this and I wanted to believe it was not true. My reasoning is below.

     

    1 XP Potion Placeholder for future CS? I got this item as a quest reward. Tonic of Accelerated Time. When I got it, the name sounded like something that might give an xp boost. I couldn't use it. Here is a thread in the official forum. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/82790/tonic-of-accelerated-time

    I didn't see why it would be necessary to get through the level 1-50 content, but after reaching VR 1, I can now see that a lot of people would be interested in this type of potion because of the game design making the VR levels much harder to get through.

     

    2 This game needs a lot of people in AvA (Cyrodiil) to be fun in the long-term, but fewer people are participating. This game was designed around three faction pvp in a very large open zone. If it is empty and if people are not participating, the heart of the game is gutted. Questing won't keep people around for long. And leveling alts is not attractive in this game. If people hit a wall grinding VR levels, they will quit.

     

    3 The VR grind is way over-the-top for today's casual gamers. So, people are going to quit after they hit 50 and realize what is in front of them. That means the VR10 (possible exploiters from what I understand) vamps (I know there is going to be "a fix" for the vamps) who are currently farming noobs in Cyrodiil at will, are going to drive away lower level players. It's not fun for them.

    I get that the leveling from VR1-12 might be kind of old school, but if you have a game designed around a system that needs a lot of people (3 faction pvp in Cyrodiil) to be fun, then when you drive away casual gamers, the game will dry up. People won't pay subs to be farmed in Cyrodiil, or to be forced to group to level from VR 6-12. You pretty much need to group if you can to have any fun leveling from VR 1-5, in my opinion. That's bad because it wasn't really necessary at all for levels 1-50 where most of the people in my guild still are and where I assume most casual players still are.

     

    My guild has about 250 members with turn over. New people are coming in, people leave, there is a steady core. They were mainly centered in GW2. Most people in my guild came over to ESO because they wanted to pvp together like we did in GW2 -- That is our main guild activity at least twice a week -- with a core of people who go to WvW every day. They thought this would be possible in ESO. On a typical evening at prime time we have 40 people active for guild events. They were nearly all in ESO after launch. Now, they are moving back to GW2. I can see who is where in Team Speak. We had about 8-10 people in ESO last night.

     

    There are a few of us still grinding away at VRs, grouping up sometimes and having fun, but far fewer people to play with than before. This is normal for games after the first month, I know. But it doesn't bode well for AvA.

     

    I hope I am wrong, but based on these observations (forget about bugs, etc.) this is what I see.

     

    Someone please tell me I'm wrong and that all this will be worked out, ESO will stay sub-based, there won't be xp potions in the cash shop, and AvA will be thriving 6 months from now.

     

     

     

     

     

    I suggest to wait around 3-6 months. Yesterday I logged to try to run a VR dungeon and while waiting something in the chat called my attention. Seems more players started to advertise their guilds as a "grinding guild" literally. The buzz now is grinding. Seems players are in open world grinding to the death as I couldn't never find a group to run a VR dungeon with my healer. The future of AvA? I don't see any future at least in the Dawnbreaker campaign. Aldmeri Dominion owns that campaign since day 1. The whole Cyrodiil map is colored in yellow except the areas that can't be changed. Anyone that wants something other than getting the skyshards should go to another campaign.

    I think the patch will improve the XP gains. I wish good luck to your guild. I told my guildies I may be back in summer as  am back to Skyrim, hell yes.

     

  • d_20d_20 AmsterdamPosts: 754Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    The inevitable loud exodus of locusts will occur in the next week as the subs kick in. They will all be justyfing their departure with a wide variety of reasons (as they do after the first 4-6 weeks in every new MMO).

     

    Then we'll be left with the real fans as well as a bunch of people that secretly believe everything on the "planned feature list" will actually be delivered in the next 4 to 6 weeks. That latter group will be posting doom threads for the next month where they predict that "if feature X isn't implemented NAO" the game will be F2P in a month or two and/or they'll cancel their sub. None of them ever internalise the fact that "during the rest of 2014" could be 6 months or longer. Many of these people are already posting about how all the bugs STILL haven't been fixed, as if it's 4 months (not 4 weeks) since launch.

     

    The future of the game hinges on the success of the console launch. If that goes well, it's rainbows and roses and many years of happy gameplay for all in Tamriel. If the uptake on consoles is dissappointing, all bets are off.

    Somehow, I don't think that Zenimax will be willing to have ESO just limping along generating insufficient cash to fund it's ambitous future content plans. Or will they be content to subsidize development and take a long-term approach to success ? A new single-player ES game can't be too far away, and it's arrival will be a renewed marketing boost for ESO.

    I can see you've been around these forums for a while. This is a nice condensed overview of what we will probably see.

     

    According to today's mmorpg.com  interview with Paul Sage, most players are still in zones 2 and 3. I think we will hear a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth once they defeat Molag Bal, hit 50 and think they are at endgame. Then they get to find out about VR grinding. Meanwhile, if they want to pvp in Cyrodiil, the remaining "locusts" will be stomping on all the low VRs (especially those who are Vampires, if that problem is not fixed with Vamp OP-ness). 

     

    To add insult to injury, no more xp for exploration and chests. So one VR level is like 10 levels pre-50. People aren't going to like that much. You will hear about it in a month or two, quite loudly.

    image
  • d_20d_20 AmsterdamPosts: 754Member Uncommon

    Was this game intended to be a niche game?

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/8669/Elder-Scrolls-Online-Is-ESO-Dying-or-Just-Carving-a-Niche.html

     

    This game is not living up to it's $200 million development price tag because of poor design. I'm no longer subbed because in spite of the poor design decisions discussed above, some patches seem to break more than they fix. I'm not paying for that.

     

    Maybe Zeni will have this figured out in 6 months to a year and we will see ESO's population grow again up to the levels expected prior to launch. Who knows?

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon
    Fair enough d20, but saying this to all the posters out there, you played, your not subbed now, will you still be coming back for Christmas and telling us why the game was  not for you? :)
  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by d_20According to today's mmorpg.com  interview with Paul Sage, most players are still in zones 2 and 3. I think we will hear a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth once they defeat Molag Bal, hit 50 and think they are at endgame. Then they get to find out about VR grinding.

    What makes you think they hit 50 at all? What if most of the player base never actually reach cap? Does it apply to all games?

    It is easy to toss around theories when you have no data whatsoever...


    People come and go all the time but something as vague does not tell you much and making claims founded on myopatic perception through very own bias isn't very constructive nor smart.

  • AmanaAmana New York, NYPosts: 2,527Moderator Uncommon
    Locking this because it is months old. If you want to discuss the contents of an older thread, link to that older thread in a new one instead of bringing up inactive ones.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

2»
This discussion has been closed.