There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.
Bren
I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.
You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.
The deal with Facebook is still not yet concluded wonder what is going to happen if Zuckerberg pulls out and then they will be stuck with something no other company will touch due to this huge controversy.
Originally posted by kitarad Originally posted by BrenelaelThere is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.Bren
I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.
You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.
His second paragraph is not in fact inaccurate. It's an if/then If tech developed while under Zens auspices migrated to OR at any time; then it is a breach. If not then no breach.
According to greyghost and I think his timeline is correct Carmack slapped together that duct taped ski goggles while with Zenimax. Looks like it was migrated but the way he is working on it it seems to be he had the full sanction and permission of Zenimax to do so. That is why I am so confused. Why did Zen allow him to work in two different companies at the same time ?
It's worth noting that ZeniMax is not claiming that Oculus is violating any VR patents it owns, but rather that the design and development of the Rift headset was substantially aided by Carmack's work, which is owned by ZeniMax. This could make it a murky legal argument. It's not necessarily about the money Oculus has been making -- the company has thus far made about $25.5 million off its Rift developer kits,Recode reports -- but rather could have implications involving future consumer models.
How is that headset development linked to some duct taped ski goggles. That is the claim. That is why Carmack saying "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," is important.
Please remember it is not the VR they are going for it is the design of the headset .The one they will be selling to millions of consumers.
Originally posted by kitarad According to greyghost and I think his timeline is correct Carmack slapped together that duct taped ski goggles while with Zenimax. Looks like it was migrated but the way he is working on it it seems to be he had the full sanction and permission of Zenimax to do so. That is why I am so confused. Why did Zen allow him to work in two different companies at the same time ?
Depends on several factors, were they aware he was? did they know he was effectively working in the same field in a different company? As far as I know there is no law saying one can't work a second job, nor one requiring you to tell your primary employer such(unless contractual obligations require such disclosure) The "drama" comes in when it starts looking like mixing/matching of proprietary tech. of two separate corp. entities without consent.
Originally posted by BrenelaelThere is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.Bren
I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.
You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.
His second paragraph is not in fact inaccurate. It's an if/then If tech developed while under Zens auspices migrated to OR at any time; then it is a breach. If not then no breach.
Exactly... I was not saying it happened either way. I was just stating what the legalities are in cases such as this one. My personal opinion on this case is irrelevant. The facts of the legalities are simply the facts.
There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.
The simple fact is that Zenimax did pay Carmack to research VR tech while he was under contract with their company. Now he is working for another company developing that same technology. Anything he discovered or developed while working for Zenimax belongs to Zenimax. Like it or not that is the law. Anything he developed while under contract by Zenimax that made it's way over to Occulus is a breach of contract and constitutes a theft of technology.
Bren
This! It's really that simple! Come on now. /shrug
Research & Development (R&D) is a HUGE moneypit for Companies!
Otherwise People can just work for a big Company, develop a new Product until it's Close to ready and then leave said Company, start your own and release said product and take 100% profit from it, without spending a dime on R&D!
So if this ends up being the case, then I fully support Zenimax in this! They are in their full right to protect their Research and Development!
Originally posted by kitarad Zenimax knew he was see here The plan was to have Carmack stay on-board at both companies, but after ZeniMax reportedly did not want Carmack working on virtual reality at the company, Carmack resigned from Id Software to become a full-time member of Oculus. As a result of all this unless they settle it Oculus will never see the light of day..../sigh
That article still doesn't answer two fundamental questions: A: did proprietary tech migrate from Zen to OR via Carmack B: if it did, did Zen give consent prior to migration
If he was employed by both companies and they were developing this together it will virtually impossible to prove he did not create the duct taped ski goggles using Zenimax equipment. Luckey sent his prototype and Carmack modified it while working for Zenimax. How is he going to prove otherwise ?
The second question you asked it was the NDA that tipped Zenimax's hand off and their refusal to settle for equity. See they want the whole tech which is probably why they were unable to settle. Zenimax allowed Carmack to work on the prototype because they want the prototype. Only way to get it is to allow Carmack to work in both companies at the same time.
We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.
You know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.
We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.
Trying to find a nice way to say this. It sounds as if Carmack and Luckey were trying as hard to "screw" over Zen as the reverse if they indeed breached a signed contract all parties agreed to before hand. /shrug I don't know
We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.
Trying to find a nice way to say this. It sounds as if Carmack and Luckey were trying as hard to "screw" over Zen as the reverse if they indeed breached a signed contract all parties agreed to before hand. /shrug I don't know
True I know me and my little guy fighting the corporation is getting in the way of my reasoning.
The haters in this thread that spew misinformation is just crazy.
The only people that know the truth are Zenimax and Oculus. None of you know what the contract situation is.
The only truth is this.
If you work for company A and company B... and you do work for B while on the clock for A... then said work belongs to A, unless you have very specific clauses in contracts.
Originally posted by kitarad You know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.
I wouldn't worry about that, with the army of lawyers and money that Facebook has. While this might take long time to settle it's not going to interfere with Rifts development and release.
Originally posted by kitaradYou know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.
I wouldn't worry about that, with the army of lawyers and money that Facebook has. While this might take long time to settle it's not going to interfere with Rifts development and release.
Unless a cease and desist order gets issued until settled
Another thing that is abundantly clear is that people are letting their dislike for ESO and Facebook cloud their judgement over this. The very title of this thread makes that abundantly clear. This is totally unrelated to either as this was going on long before ESO's release or the FB buyout. I'm not saying that Carmack is guilty or innocent of a breach of contract as I'm not privy to that information. I'm only stating that until all the facts are presented in this case it is far to early to make snap judgements either way.
I'm a huge fan of Carmack's past work myself and I've been following the OR with great interest as well but I don't let either of those facts cloud my judgement over this. If anything that Carmack was working on while under contract by Zenimax made it's way over to the Rift then he is guilty of a breach of contract. Zenimax wouldn't be pushing this if they didn't have some kind of legal grounds to stand on otherwise it would be a huge waste of their company's resources. I'll reserve my personal judgement over this until all of the facts are made clear.
Originally posted by kitaradYou know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.
I wouldn't worry about that, with the army of lawyers and money that Facebook has. While this might take long time to settle it's not going to interfere with Rifts development and release.
Unless a cease and desist order gets issued until settled
If Zenimax has a legal right to issue that, I think they would have done that already. I see this thing falling somewhere in the same category as the Apple vs. Samsung, "Shape of the phone" lawsuit.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Not saying you making stuff up, but do you have a source? I can only find stuff on the current case. Granted I only checked the first 3 pages on google
Later that same year, ZeniMax and Oculus started ultimately unsuccessful negotiations for ZeniMax to get compensation or equity stake for the Oculus IP.
That's in the linked article. Lots of times people negotiate to avoid expensive lawsuits it does not necessarily mean Zen has a claim .It just means they negotiated because it was cheaper to get a settlement IMO.
Bloody cheap stunt by Zenimax.
Was there an agreement when he left that he cannot work in the same technology or in competition if there wasn't there is no case.
If Occulus never got sold for 2billion, there would be no lawsuit period.
Anyone who believes differently.... lol
If the Mitsubishi 3000 had not been a hit, Chevy would have never sued over their Corvette engine designer taking the engine to Mits...and then we would still have Mistu 3000's today. No one sues if you are not going to get money.
You mean like the SCO vs IBM lawsuit over unix technology in linux ? SCO sure got its money ....
It sounds like ZOS might have a case here but they are taking a dangerous gamble. They are hoping that whatever small settlement they will probably get out of this will offset the hit their already struggling reputation will take in the process.
Originally posted by kitaradYou know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.
I wouldn't worry about that, with the army of lawyers and money that Facebook has. While this might take long time to settle it's not going to interfere with Rifts development and release.
Unless a cease and desist order gets issued until settled
If Zenimax has a legal right to issue that, I think they would have done that already. I see this thing falling somewhere in the same category as the Apple vs. Samsung, "Shape of the phone" lawsuit.
They only recently filed the core lawsuit. I've not seen anywhere yet whether or not Zen has sent a cease and desist letter. I do know they have not as yet filed a separate suit to a court seeking a cease and desist order. But nothing precludes them from doing so now that the core suit is filed. It's actually pretty common in R&D breach and corporate espionage cases. Nor is there anything precluding the judge in the core case issuing an injunction if he/she feel it's necessary/warranted.
Cool, looks like ZOS may kill Oculus Rift before Facebook can. I really don't care either way, but this is amusing. Hope they at least get some cash out of this if it was truly stolen, which as much as I trust John Carmack it probably was.
ZOS will most likely win this lawsuit, and I hope they do, corporate espionage like this is terrible.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Keyword here is succeeds during his term of employment. Question is how much of Occulus can Zenimax prove was developed while he was working for them.
Since he admitted to using a portion of code owned by Zenimax this can only end one way unless he makes a deal.
He didn't say that.
He admitted to not using a single line of code.
Zeni isn't filing suit over a breach of contract. They're saying OR uses their code. This entire thing has to do with the software running OR, and zenimax's belief that the code belongs to them.
Originally posted by kitaradKeyword here is succeeds during his term of employment. Question is how much of Occulus can Zenimax prove was developed while he was working for them.
Since he admitted to using a portion of code owned by Zenimax this can only end one way unless he makes a deal.
He didn't say that.
He admitted to not using a single line of code.
Zeni isn't filing suit over a breach of contract. They're saying OR uses their code. This entire thing has to do with the software running OR, and zenimax's belief that the code belongs to them.
Carmack keeps saying that its all original code.
Scroll down; I later redacted my statement due to my poor reading comprehension. EDIT And apparently the suit is over the headset anyway nor the software or firmware /EDIT
Comments
I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.
You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.
The deal with Facebook is still not yet concluded wonder what is going to happen if Zuckerberg pulls out and then they will be stuck with something no other company will touch due to this huge controversy.
You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.
His second paragraph is not in fact inaccurate. It's an if/then If tech developed while under Zens auspices migrated to OR at any time; then it is a breach. If not then no breach.
thanks for the info
EQ2 fan sites
Exactly... I was not saying it happened either way. I was just stating what the legalities are in cases such as this one. My personal opinion on this case is irrelevant. The facts of the legalities are simply the facts.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Zenimax knew he was see here
The plan was to have Carmack stay on-board at both companies, but after ZeniMax reportedly did not want Carmack working on virtual reality at the company, Carmack resigned from Id Software to become a full-time member of Oculus.
As a result of all this unless they settle it Oculus will never see the light of day..../sigh
This! It's really that simple! Come on now. /shrug
Research & Development (R&D) is a HUGE moneypit for Companies!
Otherwise People can just work for a big Company, develop a new Product until it's Close to ready and then leave said Company, start your own and release said product and take 100% profit from it, without spending a dime on R&D!
So if this ends up being the case, then I fully support Zenimax in this! They are in their full right to protect their Research and Development!
A: did proprietary tech migrate from Zen to OR via Carmack
B: if it did, did Zen give consent prior to migration
If he was employed by both companies and they were developing this together it will virtually impossible to prove he did not create the duct taped ski goggles using Zenimax equipment. Luckey sent his prototype and Carmack modified it while working for Zenimax. How is he going to prove otherwise ?
The second question you asked it was the NDA that tipped Zenimax's hand off and their refusal to settle for equity. See they want the whole tech which is probably why they were unable to settle. Zenimax allowed Carmack to work on the prototype because they want the prototype. Only way to get it is to allow Carmack to work in both companies at the same time.
We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.
True I know me and my little guy fighting the corporation is getting in the way of my reasoning.
The haters in this thread that spew misinformation is just crazy.
The only people that know the truth are Zenimax and Oculus. None of you know what the contract situation is.
The only truth is this.
If you work for company A and company B... and you do work for B while on the clock for A... then said work belongs to A, unless you have very specific clauses in contracts.
I wouldn't worry about that, with the army of lawyers and money that Facebook has. While this might take long time to settle it's not going to interfere with Rifts development and release.
Another thing that is abundantly clear is that people are letting their dislike for ESO and Facebook cloud their judgement over this. The very title of this thread makes that abundantly clear. This is totally unrelated to either as this was going on long before ESO's release or the FB buyout. I'm not saying that Carmack is guilty or innocent of a breach of contract as I'm not privy to that information. I'm only stating that until all the facts are presented in this case it is far to early to make snap judgements either way.
I'm a huge fan of Carmack's past work myself and I've been following the OR with great interest as well but I don't let either of those facts cloud my judgement over this. If anything that Carmack was working on while under contract by Zenimax made it's way over to the Rift then he is guilty of a breach of contract. Zenimax wouldn't be pushing this if they didn't have some kind of legal grounds to stand on otherwise it would be a huge waste of their company's resources. I'll reserve my personal judgement over this until all of the facts are made clear.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
They paid a guy to develop VR software, he signed an agreement not to take the designs elsewhere and he did and just made billions off it.
Am I wrong for thinking they actually have a case here?
If Zenimax has a legal right to issue that, I think they would have done that already. I see this thing falling somewhere in the same category as the Apple vs. Samsung, "Shape of the phone" lawsuit.
You mean like the SCO vs IBM lawsuit over unix technology in linux ? SCO sure got its money ....
Cool, looks like ZOS may kill Oculus Rift before Facebook can. I really don't care either way, but this is amusing. Hope they at least get some cash out of this if it was truly stolen, which as much as I trust John Carmack it probably was.
ZOS will most likely win this lawsuit, and I hope they do, corporate espionage like this is terrible.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
He didn't say that.
He admitted to not using a single line of code.
Zeni isn't filing suit over a breach of contract. They're saying OR uses their code. This entire thing has to do with the software running OR, and zenimax's belief that the code belongs to them.
Carmack keeps saying that its all original code.
EDIT
And apparently the suit is over the headset anyway nor the software or firmware
/EDIT