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First Elder Scrolls Online and now this?!?!?!?!?! Screw Zenimax

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  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Teala

    That's why this kind of stuff is rotten.   Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person  as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company.     The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift.    If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus?  I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.

    This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is.   Period.

    He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system. 

    Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax. 

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Teala

    That's why this kind of stuff is rotten.   Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person  as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company.     The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift.    If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus?  I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.

    This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is.   Period.

    He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system. 

    Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax. 

    Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies. image

    Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me image

  • I believe John when he says Oculus doesn't use a single line of code he produced while working at Zenimax. But no one here can know the truth other than the parts involved, so we'll just have to wait and see what the courts decide.

  • oubersoubers bazelPosts: 876Member Common
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Thornrage
    Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.

    Chances of this going in Zenimax favor - zero.

    All this will do is get them negative publicity of a greedy company, again something that gamers despise.

    Zenimax needs to decide if they want to be a media company or a patent troll company.

    Sadly with this lawsuit, its clear where their priorities are,

    yeah but they dont care about the gamers Kano........why? yeah your are right, us gamers despise those greedy companies....true....very true....BUT.....gamers also stil throw their money at them without thinking so why should they care what the gamers think.......i would not care if stupid people bought me my bentley.....they never have to face us anyways.

    Gamers should talk with their money.....but "WE" don't.

    ps: stopped buyin from EA after they charged me extra for cars in a freaking RACEGAME.....(dirt 3 anyone?)......that's like buying a keyboard but you need to pay extra for your spacebar......just wrong.

     

    image
  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member

    I was watching an episode of "Mad about You" a 90's TV show. In the episode, Paul invests money into a VR headset without his wife's knowledge and comedy ensues.

    The Idea of VR headsets have been around for a long time. Zenimax doesn't own that idea. However they would own any lines of code that were created while John was working for them.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Webster, MAPosts: 4,813Member
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Teala

    That's why this kind of stuff is rotten.   Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person  as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company.     The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift.    If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus?  I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.

    This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is.   Period.

    He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system. 

    Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax. 

    Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies. image

    Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me image

    You agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. No one is forced to sign anything. When you choose to sign something, you have to deal with the consequences. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with anything considering this has been an ongoing thing for a few years now. 

    Secondly... does everyone here realize that Zenimax Media is the one doing this and not Zenimax Online Studios (Developers of TESO). Zenimax Online Studios is just a subsidy just like Bethesda is. When you say we don't need game companies like Bethesda, id software, and etc. because the parent company is upholding signed agreements I really get confused. 

    He had a choice to retain all rights to everything he did by simply turning down the job and refusing to sign anything. Though, that may have reduced his ability to make the contributions to the Rift Oculus that he has. 

     

    Though I think your post is derived more from your distaste with ESO than anything. For the record I too dislike ESO and saw it's short comings back in the conceptual stages and was further convinced of it's short comings during the alpha and decided to pass on the game entirely. That however has not clouded my judgement. 

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 602Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Teala

    ...

    ..

    ...

    You agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. No one is forced to sign anything...

     What you think is also irrelevant including any rant about signing. It is for the courts to decide who signed what and how that applies to what. I have written programs while under contract and done work as a subcontractor with software belonging to my employer, the client, and myself at various times. The agreements made for ownership are negotiated and not just under some blanket well the guy used to work for us law.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Epicent
    This is ridiculous. Seriously. Rift does good and now they try to cash in? Guess they have to make money some kind of way. http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/01/oculus-rift-technology-was-stolen-company-claims

    So screw Zenimax becuase the guy broke an agreement which he signed himself which gives Zenimax the rights to anything he worked on while an employee of Zenimax? You know this is pretty standard practice for any company. Dont know why you kids try to act like suddenly this one company is greedy and evil for doing it when every company in the world uses the same types of agreements to ensure this type of stuff doesnt happen and that they have a claim to anything created by their employees using their resources.

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz La Puente, CAPosts: 865Member
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Epicent
    This is ridiculous. Seriously. Rift does good and now they try to cash in? Guess they have to make money some kind of way. http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/01/oculus-rift-technology-was-stolen-company-claims

    So screw Zenimax becuase the guy broke an agreement which he signed himself which gives Zenimax the rights to anything he worked on while an employee of Zenimax? You know this is pretty standard practice for any company. Dont know why you kids try to act like suddenly this one company is greedy and evil for doing it when every company in the world uses the same types of agreements to ensure this type of stuff doesnt happen and that they have a claim to anything created by their employees using their resources.

    I believe it's because they are trying to claim things he was working after he worked for Zenimax. They have a right to anything he worked on while with the company, just not work he did after.

    All code he worked on while he was with the company is theirs. But not code he worked on after.

  • CleffyCleffy San Diego, CAPosts: 4,623Member Uncommon

    I think it really depends on their contracts since a lot of things here wont work like it does with other companies because the entities are Zenimax and Carmack.

    Zenimax usually does not pursue litigation unless its in the right to do say as it has done with Fallout Online.  Chances are they are doing this knowing full well they can win. They are also doing this because they bought Id to get Carmack's expertise.

    Carmack is such a high value talent that he probably was able to get a special contract. Usually most companies have you sign an NDA, Non-Compete Agreement, and IP ownership papers. However, because of Carmack's position and Zenimax's relative laxness in these areas; he may have been able to broker leeway in these areas. So it really depends on the individual contracts. Another thing to note, a company that makes you sign a non-compete agreement usually also has to pay you during the non-compete time period. So there is a good chance non-compete does not apply.

  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 943Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by Teala

    That's why this kind of stuff is rotten.   Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person  as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company.     The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift.    If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus?  I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.

    This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is.   Period.

    He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system. 

    Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax. 

    Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies. image

    Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me image

             ENNN wrong. He signed an intellectual rights contract with Zenimax. The contract is enforceable period.

     

     

  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member

    There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.

     

    The simple fact is that Zenimax did pay Carmack to research VR tech while he was under contract with their company. Now he is working for another company developing that same technology. Anything he discovered or developed while working for Zenimax belongs to Zenimax. Like it or not that is the law. Anything he developed while under contract by Zenimax that made it's way over to Occulus is a breach of contract and constitutes a theft of technology.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.

     Bren

    I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.

     

    You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.

     

    The deal with Facebook is still not yet concluded wonder what is going to happen if Zuckerberg pulls out and then they will be stuck with something no other company will touch due to this huge controversy.

    image

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by kitarad
    Originally posted by Brenelael There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.  Bren
    I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.

     

    You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.



    His second paragraph is not in fact inaccurate. It's an if/then If tech developed while under Zens auspices migrated to OR at any time; then it is a breach. If not then no breach.

    image
  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    According to greyghost and I think his timeline is correct Carmack slapped together that duct taped ski goggles while with Zenimax. Looks like it was migrated but the way he is working on it it seems to be he had the full sanction and permission of Zenimax to do so. That is why I am so confused. Why did Zen allow him to work in two different companies at the same time ?

    image

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by kitarad

    The tech that Zenimax is talking about is some computer component duct taped ski goggles.

    This is from the article  http://www.cnet.com/news/oculus-and-facebook-hit-with-legal-challenge-over-rights-to-rift-technology/

    It's worth noting that ZeniMax is not claiming that Oculus is violating any VR patents it owns, but rather that the design and development of the Rift headset was substantially aided by Carmack's work, which is owned by ZeniMax. This could make it a murky legal argument. It's not necessarily about the money Oculus has been making -- the company has thus far made about $25.5 million off its Rift developer kits,Recode reports -- but rather could have implications involving future consumer models.

     

    How is that headset development linked to some duct taped ski goggles. That is the claim. That is why Carmack saying "Oculus uses zero lines of code that I wrote while under contract to Zenimax," is important.

    Please remember it is not the VR they are going for it is the design of the headset .The one they will be selling to millions of consumers.

    thanks for the info

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by kitarad
    According to greyghost and I think his timeline is correct Carmack slapped together that duct taped ski goggles while with Zenimax. Looks like it was migrated but the way he is working on it it seems to be he had the full sanction and permission of Zenimax to do so. That is why I am so confused. Why did Zen allow him to work in two different companies at the same time ?
    Depends on several factors, were they aware he was? did they know he was effectively working in the same field in a different company? As far as I know there is no law saying one can't work a second job, nor one requiring you to tell your primary employer such(unless contractual obligations require such disclosure) The "drama" comes in when it starts looking like mixing/matching of proprietary tech. of two separate corp. entities without consent.

    image
  • BrenelaelBrenelael Warren, MEPosts: 3,996Member
    Originally posted by BMBender

     


    Originally posted by kitarad

    Originally posted by Brenelael There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.  Bren
    I see everyone else is talking through their proverbial arses and then you proceed to give your opinion which is of course is the right opinion.

     

     

    You know what really puzzles me through all this story . Why was Carmack working for two companies at the same time ? What was Zenimax hoping to get out of allowing him to work in two companies ? Is it perhaps a chance to get at the tech that Luckey had which they would have no claim over had they not allowed Carmack to work on it while still working for Zenimax. We have no idea what verbal assurances were given during the development of this tech. I find it all very very shady.


    His second paragraph is not in fact inaccurate. It's an if/then If tech developed while under Zens auspices migrated to OR at any time; then it is a breach. If not then no breach.

     

    Exactly... I was not saying it happened either way. I was just stating what the legalities are in cases such as this one. My personal opinion on this case is irrelevant. The facts of the legalities are simply the facts.

     

    Bren

    while(horse==dead)
    {
    beat();
    }

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon

    Zenimax knew he was see here 

     

    The plan was to have Carmack stay on-board at both companies, but after ZeniMax reportedly did not want Carmack working on virtual reality at the company, Carmack resigned from Id Software to become a full-time member of Oculus.

     

    As a result of all this unless they settle it Oculus will never see the light of day..../sigh

    image

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Brenelael

    There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.

     

    The simple fact is that Zenimax did pay Carmack to research VR tech while he was under contract with their company. Now he is working for another company developing that same technology. Anything he discovered or developed while working for Zenimax belongs to Zenimax. Like it or not that is the law. Anything he developed while under contract by Zenimax that made it's way over to Occulus is a breach of contract and constitutes a theft of technology.

     

    Bren

    This!  It's really that simple!  Come on now. /shrug

    Research & Development (R&D) is a HUGE moneypit for Companies!

    Otherwise People can just work for a big Company, develop a new Product until it's Close to ready and then leave said Company, start your own and release said product and take 100% profit from it, without spending a dime on R&D!

    So if this ends up being the case, then I fully support Zenimax in this! They are in their full right to protect their Research and Development!

     

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by kitarad
    Zenimax knew he was see here  The plan was to have Carmack stay on-board at both companies, but after ZeniMax reportedly did not want Carmack working on virtual reality at the company, Carmack resigned from Id Software to become a full-time member of Oculus. As a result of all this unless they settle it Oculus will never see the light of day..../sigh
    That article still doesn't answer two fundamental questions:
    A: did proprietary tech migrate from Zen to OR via Carmack
    B: if it did, did Zen give consent prior to migration

    image
  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon

    If he was employed by both companies and they were developing this together it will virtually impossible to prove he did not create the duct taped ski goggles using Zenimax equipment. Luckey sent his prototype and Carmack modified it while working for Zenimax. How is he going to prove otherwise ?

     

    The second question you asked it was the NDA that tipped Zenimax's hand off and their refusal to settle for equity. See they want the whole tech which is probably why they were unable to settle. Zenimax allowed Carmack to work on the prototype because they want the prototype. Only way to get it is to allow Carmack to work in both companies at the same time. 

     

    We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.

    image

  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    You know what really saddens me this brilliant tech will now be embroiled in legal action and some other company will come up with an inferior version and we all will be forced to settle for that.

    image

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by kitarad


    We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.


    Trying to find a nice way to say this. It sounds as if Carmack and Luckey were trying as hard to "screw" over Zen as the reverse if they indeed breached a signed contract all parties agreed to before hand. /shrug I don't know

    image
  • kitaradkitarad RomePosts: 1,744Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BMBender

     


    Originally posted by kitarad

     


    We have no insight into the assurances and deals that were made between Luckey and Zenimax representatives but looks to me like both Carmack and Luckey are going to get screwed over.


    Trying to find a nice way to say this. It sounds as if Carmack and Luckey were trying as hard to "screw" over Zen as the reverse if they indeed breached a signed contract all parties agreed to before hand. /shrug I don't know

     

    True I know me and my little guy fighting the corporation is getting in the way of my reasoning.

    image

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