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The reason why I hate Subscription MMOs...

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  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member

     I would think that there has to be a good balance between sub and b2p models.  I dont mind a mostly cosmetic item shop and I would also be fine paying 5$ a month as a sub.  I would even go up to 7$ a month for a decent game with a item shop that is mostly limited to non-game affecting purchases.  At 15$ I simply feel like it becomes over priced and limiting.  If I choose to play more than 1 mmo at once that 15$ becomes 30$ or 45$ pretty fast.  Also, when you have more people in your house playing, I enjoy playing with my wife but she doesnt have much time to dedicate to gaming, thats 30$ for 2 people and one will hardly play.  Then add in the 50$ box fee, 100$ for both of us.  I see that as a high entry fee.

     When a game sells expansions as well, I find it difficult to spend 15$ on a sub fee, especially if expansions are sold often.  I can see a company making profit off of box fees, subs, and an item shop, but with most sub based games it seems as if the profits are high on all 3.  WoW is a good example of having all 3 at the extreme.  Now how does GW2 compete with profit considering its buy to play, with no sub, with an item shop that mostly doesnt effect play.

      I would think that 5-7$ a month would cover server costs and what not while still giving profit.  Having an in game shop thats mostly cosmetic would add into that profit as well.  I would also think that there is a sweet spot for a sub that increases volume of players making up for lost profit which will also create more business for the item shop and box purchases. 

  • MamasGunMamasGun SomewhereIn, FLPosts: 152Member
    Originally posted by tixylix

    My problem with subscriptions is that it charges you the same rate as everyone else no matter how much you play. So if someone plays 24/7, they're paying exactly the same as someone who only manages to get 4 hours a week in.

    I think forced subscriptions have to go and they need to be replaced by optional ones + the F2P model.

    While I understand where you are coming from, I do not agree with you.  Specifically what I colored red.  I don't think anyone, whether it is a casual or a hardcore player, should get any kind of cost reduction on a subscription for a video game.  If you find that you do not get the most out of your money for the subscription you've paid for because you don't have enough time to play, then you really probably shouldn't play any MMO that requires a subscription. And that's on you if you want to- it's your perogative.  I just don't think, "I'm grown, I'm busy, I can't be held to a subscription if I don't play that much 'cos it's too expensive" is really a good enough reason for anybody to receive any kind of price cut, discount, or anything else that is a monetary setback to the product you are purchasing.

    I, personally, prefer Subscriptions.  I, personally, would rather be part of a community that cares enough to pay to be there than to be stuck in a F2P hell where people can make multiple accounts to troll the community, smaller chances to catc hhacks/exploits, and anything else that comes along with F2P that I have personally seen and not wanting anything to do with.

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  • JustARandomPandaJustARandomPanda Tao te ChingPosts: 61Member
    Originally posted by goboygo

    Okay so because super casual guy thinks 50 cents a day is some how a financial burden, the market is flooded with trashy F2P games to keep you busy here and there.

    Even if I only played 15mins a day or 2 hours a week, it would still make more financial sense on a fun per cost basis to play a sub game, verses a F2P where every minute of game play is annoying and tied around the ever constant cash shop mini mall deal of the day spam.

     

     

     

    Well technically speaking I believe $15 a month for the 6 or so hours Tixylix gets to play would amount to $2.50 per hour, not 50 cents. He is someone who would find the value of his MMO(s) more equitable and fair using a Pay-for-what-you-actually-use model instead of subscribing. A similar analogy would be to a gym that advertised "pay only for the hour(s) you actually use our gym facilities"  instead of shoehorning everyone into the one-size-fits-all offering of a yearly contract. The first is fee-per-use. The second is similar to having a lawyer on retainer. You aren't paying for the product..you're reserving the right to access the producer's product whether that access is financially excessive cost-wise to the game producer or not at all that month (in which case the excess cost is shouldered by the customer for that month of non-use, not the publisher). One customer is willing to accept that pay-to-not-use risk. The other is not. But both are actual paying customers though they are willing to pay for the same product but under different conditions. These are two different kinds of mmo-customer bases with 2 different paying-psychologies and needs.

     

    The nice thing about the hybrid business model more and more western mmos are using is that it permits publishers to price discriminate among their actual player base. Compared to someone like me a subscriber is actually one of those "Whales" the MMO publishing industry keeps hoping to stack their player base with. Somehow though I don't see many P2P-lovers seeing themselves as "whales" and that's likely because they see the amount they pay for the product offered as fair and equitable (funny how that actually fits the probable self-reasoning of a F2P "whale" as he's buying from his favorite F2P mmo too but I digress).

     

    The above also shows a lack of familiarity (or maybe just hyperbole?) with many hybrid model western mmos. Asian-owned grinders often do have the whole spam thing. If that bugs you continue to not play games doing this and don't pay. But there are plenty of F2P/B2P western mmos that don't do that at all. Neither TSW nor GW2 spam the playerbases' screens constantly with appeals to "buy our latest cash shop special" while you're busy playing. I typically only find out about it because I'm on those games' mailing lists. That's about it.

     

    But there are people - like me - or the guy with the wife several posts above me - or Tixylix - whom will also pay for a publisher's product so long as that product is offered at a value that that customer finds fair and equitable. If it is not deemed so either the potential customer passes by or the publisher won't offer their product at that price (ie...we're priced out of the market).

     

    To not capture the money of people like me when a publisher's financial reasons don't prevent it is a publisher whom is leaving money on the table they could and would otherwise receive.

    Playing Now: The Secret World, Guild Wars 2, Neverwinter

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  • WolfsheadWolfshead HallsbergPosts: 190Member Uncommon

    OP a subscription fee on mmo is more then just game time a mmo with subscription fee mean basically that everyone have same condition get gear, weapon and see content no one is above anyone everyone and same right and condition get to end game and kill that nasty raid boss.

    Then if someone spend 24 hours in game or 4 hours or 1 hours in game it dont matter for you have same right and condition as one that spend 24 hours in game.

    The problem with F2P is that the ending up to be unfair in end take SWTOR if you are a F2P person you have spend more money in there cash shop get item to make game playable + you cant enter all end game content if dont pay extra so in the end it is easy and cheap to pay there subscription fee to unlock all thing you otherwise need to spend more money to buy from there cash shop. Many F2P mmo do restrict F2P player and also you end up spend more real money on those game.

    So before you judge subscription model you reminder you spend more money on F2P mmo then on subscription mmo and think i end spend more $$$ on SWTOR then i did when i did when a subscribe hell i even got there expansion for free when i subscribe to SWTOR otherwise i need to pay extra to get as F2P player but if you think that is ok for you and you think you have extra money to spend on it fine but not all do have those type of money also patch on F2P mmo sometime take longer then on subscription mmo.

    So subscription is not only how much time you spend in game it have with other thing to.

  • bromancer7bromancer7 New York, NYPosts: 7Member
     

    I'm not going to pick apart all the nonsense from the sub fanbois, cause it's just that, nonsense. It's like you're all stuck in 2006 where all sub games are superior and F2P games sucks (they don't --  in fact most sub games are inferior at this point to some F2P or B2P games), sub games give you everything for one price (they don't, they have cash shops too), and F2P games are pay-to-win (they're not). Oh, and that it's all about not having the money. It's not. Cause y'know, if it's just 50 cents then I'm sure someone here would be more than willing to pay for my WoW sub. I mean, it's just 50 cents a day, right? You have a decent job, right, so clearly you can afford to give a mere 50 cents away to a stranger, right? Or maybe you value that 50 cents a day in some way and aren't willing to just give it away to someone or something unless you feel as though you're actually getting your money's worth. Hmm... And what if you want to play more than one game at a time? What if there are 4 or 5 MMOs you really like? Then those monthly sub fees start adding up pretty quickly and it's sure not just 50 cents a day anymore, and the cost versus time spent playing ratio starts to not look so good anymore.

    But all of the lies, half truths, and inaccurate information aside there is a fairly good analogy here. Let's say I subscribe to Netflix for $8 a month. And I watch 1 movie a week cause that's all the time I have to sit and watch a movie. But then I realize I could get the same movies from Redbox for $1 each, which would cut my cost in half. Why should I spend more than I have to? It's a waste. Even if it's just $4, it's MY $4 and I'll spend it any way I see fit. Cause that extra $4 will buy me a latte, or a sandwich, or after a year a new game. Or maybe I realize there is no good reason to pay $60 a month for cable because nearly all the shows I watch are on broadcast TV and all I have to do is put up an antenna and get them OTA for free? Or pay $75 a month for a mobile plan when I'm almost always in range of a usable wifi network which let's me talk and text for free? Or pay $50 a month for a gym membership when I could buy a bike, some basic equipment, and never pay another membership fee ever again?

    So now instead of just saving $15 a month, I'm saving nearly $150, simply by switching from little-used paid monthly services to free and/or ala carte replacements. I mean, if a gas station offered you unlimited fill ups for $100 a month but you typically drive enough to only use $60 worth would you go for the unlimited option anyway instead of that other station down the street that let's you buy gas by the gallon? I mean, it's only $1.33 extra a day. A mere pittance to you, a working adult with plenty of disposable income, right? Do you think the gas you're getting is somehow better (it's not)? That you're going to get treated better by the station staff or that they'll pump it for you (they won't)? That they're going to put in amenities like a car wash, vacuum, and air pump and not make you pay extra for it (cause they will)? Or are you just going to be a sucker that pays more for something than they have to because it somehow makes them feel special and elitist and look down at all the cheapskates who pay by the gallon?

    So if you like the sub model, if you like renting a game from month to month, hey, that's fine, carry on. Spend your money any way you see fit. But don't delude yourself into thinking you're getting some extreme value for your money, that your subscription-only product is better, or that your regular monthly payments are going to result in more content, better customer service, or more developer attention. Cause I'm sorry, that's horse manure. It may have been the case at one time, but that time is LONG gone.

    The statistics tell you all you need to know. Games that have gone from a sub model to F2P or hybrid see a massive increase in revenue that's used to not only pay developers but to create new content more frequently than they would otherwise. Which is why virtually every MMO out there has abandoned the sub model, will abandon the sub model within the first year or so, or offers a F2P option in addition to the sub model. Because the sub model is a dying dinosaur that was viable when you had 3 games to choose from, but no longer the case when you have 30+.

  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Behind you, ORPosts: 1,522Member Uncommon
    Without reading a word....because you are cheap

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  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon

    after wading through all the verbiage, and i get that you don't like P2P and are heavily into F2P, but the fact remains, P2P games do tend to be better quality etc, than F2P games, if they aren't then they don't stay P2P for very long, if this was not the case then nobody would play P2P games and all games would be increasingly F2P, which they obviously, are not. The other factor which you are seemingly ignoring, is that a lot of the F2P games made are not meant to have any real longevity, they have an extremely high turnover in player numbers, and the only real 'content' added to them is usually in the form of cash shop purchases rather than 'real' content which is something that P2P games do tend to add on a regular basis, after all they don't need to try and get you to spend more, something that a F2P game has to constantly try to get you to do, so P2P games can concentrate on adding more content to keep players playing, which is also one of the reasons why successful P2P games tend to be far superior to even their nearest F2P contenders.

    As for the argument that F2P games aren't P2W, most of them are, its rare that their not, and is entirely a corollary of the cash shop mentality that infests F2P games. But feel free to point out which F2P games are not P2W image

    The future though, of MMO's might well be a hybrid system where a subscription unlocks the 'main game' and F2P is more of a 'trial' with lots of restrictions, that can be unlocked for a fee, SW;TOR is pretty much using this system already, and it works for them. But in order to compete at end game in PVP or to Participate in the OPs etc, you have to either continually buy weekly unlocks, for a $$ fee, or you subscribe, and someone determined to keep as a F2P player and enjoy end game content, unless its just 1 week a month, is likely to spend a lot more than a subscriber for the priviledgeimage

    P2P does represent better VFM imo, because you pay up front, a relatively small fee, for unlimited game play. The developers can count on a revenue stream without resorting to continually create $$ items to tempt players, and can concentrate on the important things, like increasing a games content base, from adventures/dungeons/storylines etc without having to worry about how to make players buy something every week.

     Its also a level playing field for any game with PVP, as any F2P game with a cash shop inevitably has P2W items, just look at Planetside 2, the cash shop there sells things that give a massive advantage in combat, from aircraft weapons, to tank turret upgrades, to submachine guns and pistols etc. that are significantly better than the stock weapons players are issued with. Thats not to say that Planetside 2 is not a fun game, its a huge amount of fun, but if you really want to be successful, you have to buy those weapons.image

    Thats just touching a few reasons why i think P2P games are superior, thats not to say that there aren't P2P games out there that i don't like, there are, but the games out there that i do like, are, or tend to have a P2P option. And based on their current/past performance, their not in any danger of failing anytime soon image

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member

    In a nut shell the main points I dislike about F2P models :-

    1) IF a item is in the game I want to have the chance to get the item

    2) If I find a chest I want the chance to open it

    3) If there is and adventure area I want the ability to explore it

    4) IF there is a class/race I want the ability to play it

    5) I want the right to have access to any and all features the game offers

     

    With a Subscription I get these for the flat agreed price. With a F2P model I will be milked out of a fortune because basically I would be paying not only for my game time but for all those freeloaders out there who want the game for free.  Basically if you want the whole game you will be paying 100s if not 1000 times more for all the content than you would if your paid by subscription.

     

    This gets even worse when your purchases are character based not account based ....

     

     

     

  • JustARandomPandaJustARandomPanda Tao te ChingPosts: 61Member
    Originally posted by Phry

    after wading through all the verbiage, and i get that you don't like P2P and are heavily into F2P, but the fact remains, P2P games do tend to be better quality etc, than F2P games, if they aren't then they don't stay P2P for very long, if this was not the case then nobody would play P2P games and all games would be increasingly F2P, which they obviously, are not.

    I find assertions of P2P's overall superior quality unconvincing. Most people go on to state that if said P2P switches to F2P it shows it didn't have the necessary quality to stay P2P, otherwise people would've stayed and paid, which they're obviously not.

    That's like that No True Scotsman reasoning I mentioned earlier. Just replace "Scotsman" with "quality MMO" and the same logic is there. But notice how the "quality factor" as presented above doesn't argue for other explanations. It also downplays the increasing competitive-ness of the MMO market by ignoring this as a possible factor - something no mmo-investor or publisher would be wise to do.

     

    Ex: Someone loses a job. Or maybe more than a few someones finally just grow bored of the P2P mmo after 1-2 years even though the game's quality hasn't dropped. Maybe a newly launched P2P fits their desires even better than their current one even if they are still happy with the current one. Or maybe new expenses cut into a subbers budget and suddenly it's either Netflix or the mmo but not both. That subbers wife and kids regularly watch Netflix shows with him but he's the only one in the family playing an mmo. Which one do you think he's most likely to cut from his monthly budget? (Hint: the odds aren't looking good it'll be the P2P that stays). 

     

    Or maybe a lot of subscribers decide to only play one P2P at a time. After all...$360-$560 a year isn't pocket change for their P2P entertainment although they'll trumpet to everyone that $180 sure is. Besides, the fact $180 is mere pocket change is proof P2P-lovers are not one of Them...you know...a 'Whale' *cough*cough* 

    Hey, maybe one of these mmorpg.com P2P > F2P guys will volunteer to buy me a year's worth of Wildstar access to prove how affordable P2P is.

     

     

    The other factor which you are seemingly ignoring, is that a lot of the F2P games made are not meant to have any real longevity, they have an extremely high turnover in player numbers,

     

    Subscription MMOs have high turnover too. And P2P-preferring gamers can rightfully point out it's super-easy to unsubscribe. And they do. It's super-easy to do. Hassle-free unsubbing is yours with a single click. Just one click and boom...no more monthly auto-draft of the bank account. Lotsa people on mmorpg announce all the time they've quit subbing to this or that mmo. Which Ramakin over at Gamasutra confirms. He has an entire blog there (and a published white-paper on the topic) explaining why subscription-churn is burning a not-insubstantial percentage of MMO publishers. Subscribers ignore this factor too. So one can't lay that "ignoring that factor" primarily on people with F2P/B2P preferences. BTW - I think increasing product-competition along with overall employment factors are driving a lot of the high churn and burn rate of both F2P and subscription-only MMOs. If developed nations were not seeing stagnating wages along with dismal employment figures maybe both kinds would exhibit less churn.

     

    As for the argument that F2P games aren't P2W, most of them are, its rare that their not, and is entirely a corollary of the cash shop mentality that infests F2P games. But feel free to point out which F2P games are not P2W image

    Well here's one: I don't consider Neverwinter's PvP to be P2W. And I've played Neverwinter's PvP. And won about as often as I lost. But never once have I ever bought any advantage from the cash shop. From what I can see there are no weapons, buffs, potions or anything else that I can buy from the Neverwinter cash shop and then pop into PvP and gain a game-breaking can-of-whoop-ass advantage over my opponents. Rift doesn't either from what I hear. And...Although I concede it's not solely F2P (though it has a cash shop too) TSW's PvP has zero options for buying game-breaking PvP advantages and I play TSW's PvP several nights per week with my BF. My guess is it's probably like that with GW2's PvP as well though I can't say since I've never played any of that game's PvP. I also hear World of Tanks - though it's F2P only like Neverwinter - is not P2W either. I'm sure there are other F2P MMOs that can give good PvP experiences without having game-breaking cashshop advantages for sale. I think game-breaking PvP advantages are due to developer and publisher inexperience still in the F2P market. It doesn't *have* to defacto be that way and I'm sure that in time it will die out among most all (if not actually all) western-dev'd MMOs and probably a good number of Asian ones as well.

     

    The future though, of MMO's might well be a hybrid system where a subscription unlocks the 'main game' and F2P is more of a 'trial' with lots of restrictions, that can be unlocked for a fee, SW;TOR is pretty much using this system already, and it works for them. But in order to compete at end game in PVP or to Participate in the OPs etc, you have to either continually buy weekly unlocks, for a $$ fee, or you subscribe, and someone determined to keep as a F2P player and enjoy end game content, unless its just 1 week a month, is likely to spend a lot more than a subscriber for the priviledgeimage

    The kind of hybrid model you describe is not what GW2 or TSW do and I'm very glad for it. That very attitude by a publisher of "let's create a punishing playing environment for our cash-shop supporters" is why I did not DL and play SWTOR or Turbine's D&D or LotrO games (though I hear Turbine no longer punishes their cash-shop-preferring supporters this way though EA, sadly, still does).

     

    Now do those publishers have the right to price-discriminate among their playerbase in the way you describe? Yep. Sure do. And I won't be playing and paying for their games for that very reason. They've made it clear they'll take my money but only while holding their nose. And I'm sure they'll push some cash shop-supporters of their games into becoming yet more of their brainless-overpaying-sheeple...oops...I mean subscribers (but hey..it's none of my concern when a fool and his money are soon parted).

     

    ***to the board, not Phry***

    The above is the same condescending and elitist tone of "cheapskate, freeloading F2P-players" posts exuding from many mmorpg.com posters - like the ones in this very thread. Most of whom need to read Bromancer7's post in detail.

     

    P2P does represent better VFM imo, because you pay up front, a relatively small fee, for unlimited game play. The developers can count on a revenue stream without resorting to continually create $$ items to tempt players, and can concentrate on the important things, like increasing a games content base, from adventures/dungeons/storylines etc without having to worry about how to make players buy something every week.

    If you find $15 a month the higher value by all means P2P is the way to go.

    Bromancer7 explained why P2P gamers don't get "important" stuff from dev's at a faster rate, better quality, etc than F2P/B2P games. F2P devs are increasing a game's content, new storylines, missions, dungeons, in-game drops or craftable gear, etc too. Really...Who wants to buy from a cash shop when the quality of the ongoing content of a game sucks whether that game is F2P or P2P? No game developer can afford to be cavalier with their content updates (unless your Blizzard I suppose...) and expect to survive in the current MMO marketplace. And if the stuff in the cash shop is cosmetic only then your argument is moot since by definition the items for sale will not be something that's going to have an impact on how the game designers design new content nor the players play the game. Go play Path of Exile which is a cosmetics-only cash-shop game to see that F2P only business model doesn't mean it's a slam-dunk P2P is the superior product category these days.

     Its also a level playing field for any game with PVP, as any F2P game with a cash shop inevitably has P2W items, just look at Planetside 2, the cash shop there sells things that give a massive advantage in combat, from aircraft weapons, to tank turret upgrades, to submachine guns and pistols etc. that are significantly better than the stock weapons players are issued with. Thats not to say that Planetside 2 is not a fun game, its a huge amount of fun, but if you really want to be successful, you have to buy those weapons.image

    Having never played Planetside2 I can't say. World of Tanks doesn't seem to have a playerbase that finds the game unfair even though I'm told they sell tanks in their cash shop. If I understand it correctly "cash-shop only" tanks aren't permitted to face off against non-cash shop tanks in a deliberate effort by the publisher to keep the game level to both payers and non-payers.

     

    Thats just touching a few reasons why i think P2P games are superior, thats not to say that there aren't P2P games out there that i don't like, there are, but the games out there that i do like, are, or tend to have a P2P option. And based on their current/past performance, their not in any danger of failing anytime soon image

    The money made by a publisher should be invisible to the playing process. Supporting a game via cash shop or via subscription should actually be a wash in-game in any MMO.   Advantages due to one payment system over another doesn't need to occur if the publisher implements things right. I think there are hybrid mmos out there right now that achieve exactly this.

     

    I don't see any reason the MMO market has to be either/or. There's room for all of us. :)

     

    p.s..can someone please tell me in a PM how the above poster put those cute smilies in his post? I can't seem to find them.

     

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  • DeddmeatDeddmeat StanwellPosts: 358Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Soooo, I am only supposed to play 1 game? Is that what you guys are saying? You are talking as $15 is nothing but that's only one game. I have so many games which I never get around to playing, and sometimes want to play ANOTHER game? I know it's unthinkable to think of playing another game other than the MMO you are married to.Your comparison to TV is a bit flawed. It's like paying $15 for one channel. Cause for those $15 I can get to play only 1 game. My phone bill is £38 bucks and that includes a phone which would probably cost me £650 if I went out to buy it.Anyways I can buy so many other games which are dirt cheap and offer quite a lot of entertainment and then I can keep playing them forever.$60 upfront and $15 after that is quite a lot. That's $75 for 2 months. MMOs have unnecessary time sinks which make them BORING because they want you to play as long as possible. If they could design something to take 2 hours, they are much better off designing so you do the same content in 10-20 hours.

    Then do a Lifetime Sub to a mmo you like.

    I am subbed to 2 games, have 2 LTS, other games i'll check in on and maybe sub a bit

    The LTS means you don't have to worry about monthly costs anymore, the subs you do pay can be made cheaper by going 3/6 months or better yearly.

    image

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member

    str8 to OP, yes i agree absolutely and thats the reason i believe subscription model is a failed model cause they bring all this stress to do things before your sub ends.. also its not viable if you have a family and responsibilities or you at middle ages without job (in Greece i live half young people are unemployment ..) so 15 per month for a single game is a pain...

    i prefer the b2p or the f2p model well instead of a subscription you can get daily or weekly or even monthly boosters depending your free time and when you dont have enough free time you can just log in to do some daily or just for fun, with the restriction of NO being able to visit the game...

     

    i really dunno how people still accept subscription which if it ends doesnt allow you to play your game, although you have paid before, its stupid ...

    the argument about quality and AAA standards becomes invalid when you try to comparison GW2 and ArcheAge with ESO and Wildstar ..

     

    thats my bad english text, thanx for reading : )

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  • ShaighShaigh Posts: 545Member Uncommon

    If you have one MMO that you can play day after day, week after week a subscription is great. Pay $15 a month and you get everything.

    If you want to hop between MMO's and there are weeks when you don't even bother to login you don't get much value for that subscription and its better with f2p/b2p.

     

    I prefer subscription based MMOs that deliver an experience worthy of $15 a month. Sadly, there aren't many games that can deliver that kind of experience for more than a few months.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by tixylix

    Reading the comments, people keep saying it is a small amount.. it isn't $180 over 12 months and what if I play other MMOs? What if I pay for stuff like Netflix? I have house bills, I have tax, I have my mobile, my car and whatever else pops up.

    What is the first to go? Subscription based MMOs.

    Then don't play them, but geez, stop whining about it.  I make a lot more than $180 a day.  It's honestly not a large expense. If it's not something that you want to pay, don't pay it.

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    Hope: None

  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon
    One of the main reasons subscription MMOs are losing popularity is the rise of gamers who play more than one MMO at a time. I have two MMOs that I play regularly and 3 others that I dabble in. This would not be possible if they each required a subscription. There is no single MMO that would make me want to give up all the others and is unlikely there ever will be another one size fits all MMO that is actually good.
  • scrittyscritty WorcesterPosts: 89Member

    @OP Don't play them then.

    Many MMO's aren't sub based, so don't play the ones that are.

    Like your car. Do you have the absolute cheapest car that does the job for you? The cheapest house that performs the minimum "house like" functions you require?

    If we are talking none essentials, do you always go on the cheapest holiday there is? Do you never go out to the cinema or restaurant, and if you do do you always pick the cheapest?

    No?

    Well that's value decisions for you then. That is you being grown up and making a decision on what to spend your money on.

    Some games are free, and some cost cash. So what?

    Spending money is about value choices. You don't want to or can't afford something? Others can, do, and prefer it.

    For instance, I have never found a a game that began life as a none sub that I liked. GW2 came closest, but I still don't really like it. So guess what. I make the value choice to pay subs for games I prefer.

    You have those exact same opportunities. Many games ask for no sub, so go and knock yourself out on those. Woopee we all win.

    Except you go out of your way to criticize the products others choose to buy and prefer.

    And "Hate" such a strong word for such a completely innocuous topic. Where do you go in life if you "hate" subscription games? Jeepers. Wouldn't want to be around when something real happen near you. I guess no words could express whatever emotion you'd feel about them. Maybe you'd have to invent your own

    Summary: You don't actuallty NEED a game? So don't buy it. Others prefer them, so why not live and let live?

    Grow a pair and stop whining like a spoilt child

  • kakasakikakasaki Lockhart, TXPosts: 1,205Member
    Originally posted by free2play

    Your internet connection likely starts at $45 a month but people don't feel a driven need to be online 20 hrs a day to justify it.

    Cable bills are usually $60 to $100 a month

    Cell phones will run $35 to $200

     

    But I can't handle a $15 a month MMO sub.

     

    I just can't wrap my head around this line of thinking in the current world.

    image

    Well put, and of course, 100% correct.

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • kakasakikakasaki Lockhart, TXPosts: 1,205Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by tixylix

    Sure $15 a month isn't expensive until you look at it being $180 per year and then I see that as ALOT to spend on one game. 

    I at most play for 80 hours spread out throughout a year, that is around 6/7 hours a month. Am I really going to have to spend $180 to be able to play when I want? I have so many other games to play, so much else to do in my life, one MMO isn't all I play. 

     

    So if I have to pay a sub... I just wont bother. 

    The market agrees with you even if some people here don't. It doesn't matter why players don't want to pay subs ( game hoping I'm sure is a big one ) f2p isn't something that's getting smaller or less popular. 

    If you look at the future games being made this is really the dumbest thing people argue about. Nothing really seems to indicate either payment model is going to "die" both types are still being made. The past only shows that mmos that can't hold on to people go free to play. Subs are still viable for some games and f2p is going to be made. This is really like arguing what your favorite type of icecream is.

    Most people agree with this. The reason for the hostility is that the OP makes it sound like somehow devs have to cater to his preference. The reality is that there is more than enough games out there that are f2p. If a game chooses to stick with subs, it is every gamers choice to pay for the sub or not. 

     

    And honestly, if $180 a year us going to break you than maybe you should stay away from any sub game...

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • NephelaiNephelai SydneyPosts: 183Member Uncommon
    One of the benefits of age is you learn not to waste so much time and energy sweating the small stuff. I couldn't even list or cost my incidental expenses let alone spend copious amounts of time / energy debating their value or morality/ideology. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
     

    Seems like you should look at facebook games or somewhere else to get your gaming fix. 6-7 hours a month in any mmo you're not getting much out of it. The genre does not support that casual of play, atleast I wouldn't play an mmo that did.

    What are you talking about? There are tons of F2P MMOs that need zero commitment, and can be enjoyed piecemeal, 15 min at a time.

     

  • GruugGruug Chillicothe, ILPosts: 1,311Member Uncommon

    So, let's say I play some f2p game. I drop $20 during a month for whatever items I want in the game. I play a total of 4 hours that month. Then, you have the guy next to me that plays 30 hours or more in a month. Spends $0 during that month (or any month for that matter). Who is paying for that second person to play the game. Sorry, but I do not feel I have an obligation to pay for someone else's entertainment time. I would rather pay $15 per month and get everything in the game and play the hours I wish to play rather then play limited hours and pay for someone else to play for free.

     

     

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAPosts: 451Member
    Originally posted by MamasGun
    Originally posted by tixylix

    My problem with subscriptions is that it charges you the same rate as everyone else no matter how much you play. So if someone plays 24/7, they're paying exactly the same as someone who only manages to get 4 hours a week in.

    I think forced subscriptions have to go and they need to be replaced by optional ones + the F2P model.

    While I understand where you are coming from, I do not agree with you.  Specifically what I colored red.  I don't think anyone, whether it is a casual or a hardcore player, should get any kind of cost reduction on a subscription for a video game.  If you find that you do not get the most out of your money for the subscription you've paid for because you don't have enough time to play, then you really probably shouldn't play any MMO that requires a subscription. And that's on you if you want to- it's your perogative.  I just don't think, "I'm grown, I'm busy, I can't be held to a subscription if I don't play that much 'cos it's too expensive" is really a good enough reason for anybody to receive any kind of price cut, discount, or anything else that is a monetary setback to the product you are purchasing.

    I, personally, prefer Subscriptions.  I, personally, would rather be part of a community that cares enough to pay to be there than to be stuck in a F2P hell where people can make multiple accounts to troll the community, smaller chances to catc hhacks/exploits, and anything else that comes along with F2P that I have personally seen and not wanting anything to do with.

    What I don't understand is why people seem to think it is okay to buy a game and then turn around and pay a fee just to actually play it.  Exactly what did you buy?  Nothing.  You paid a fee to allow you to pay a fee to play a game for a limited period of time.  And before you pipe in with "the game comes with 30 days free game time"... did the game cost you $15?  No.  If the game was $60, you should be able to play it for 4 months if game time alone was what you were buying.

     

    THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH SUBSCRIPTIONS!

     

    It has nothing to do with how often you play, it has everything to do with the fact that you paid for a game that you don't actually own.  Liken it to the old arcades... you paid a quarter to play Asteroids until you used up all your lives.  That could be 10 seconds or 10 hours.  You didn't buy the game first then start plunking quarters into it.  If you're going to require quarters to play the game, the game should be free.  If the game is not free, you can't charge people money to play it.  

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,588Member Uncommon

    All this nonsense.  If a subscription based game failed, it was the game that failed, not the payment model. @OP. If someone releases, in your opinion, the most epic MMORPG ever made, Completely destroys WoW, and re hooks you into it as if it were your 1st days back in EQ (or what ever game made you fall in love with the genre), you'd pay. We'd all pay......well, most of us probably would.

    The reason why the Sub model is in decline is because there aren't any games worthy of it.

  • VendakuVendaku Halifax, NSPosts: 77Member
    For the record, Subscription based games are usually not that expensive, and a million times better than F2P games these days.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Gruug

    So, let's say I play some f2p game. I drop $20 during a month for whatever items I want in the game. I play a total of 4 hours that month. Then, you have the guy next to me that plays 30 hours or more in a month. Spends $0 during that month (or any month for that matter). Who is paying for that second person to play the game. Sorry, but I do not feel I have an obligation to pay for someone else's entertainment time. I would rather pay $15 per month and get everything in the game and play the hours I wish to play rather then play limited hours and pay for someone else to play for free.

     

     

    paying is optional in F2P. You don't have to pay for the other guy's free play if you don't want to.

    That is the whole point of "free" in f2p, you know.

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by free2play

    Your internet connection likely starts at $45 a month but people don't feel a driven need to be online 20 hrs a day to justify it.

    In my country, you can get optical fiber Internet for 15€ per month...

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

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