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(@ Those against payment model change): What is your argument for ESO NOT changing payment models an

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon

This is a decent civil forum which we can have a good civil debate and discussion.

 

So I want to hear the argument of the "Anti-ESO Payment Model changers"

on

Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?

 

I want to hear both sides of the argument, but I will start with the voices of those who believe ESO should NOT change its current payment model.

Read fine print below....

 

Edit: I believe both sides in this should have a chance to defend their argument, which is why I am asking the "Anti-ESO Payment model changers" to voice their opinion on this.

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Comments

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,261Member Uncommon
    If it went b2p or f2p there will be a cash to gold conversion system, and rl money will be able to influence in game outcomes. I don't want that. That's my argument against.
  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by nttajira

    mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

    and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

    that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

    they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

     

    you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

    if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

    - services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

    - no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

    - REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

    we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

    my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

    they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

    SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

     

    Not to be mean but your post didn't really make any sense.  I don't know if you were drunk when you posted this but...  I really have no idea what your saying.

     

    This is a forum.  In forums discussions happen.  If you don't like the discussion you can not post in that thread.

     

     

    On-topic

    Personally I don't think F2P would work well with this game simply based on the IP, but I do think a B2P would work with paid expansions.  

    I would say they could add a cash shop for cosmetic, but I feel like any cash shop in an Elder Scrolls Title just MURDERS the IP and makes it not feel like a game that shouldn't have used the IP.

    But currently with all the bugs/dupes/bots/hacks this is the least of their worries currently.  

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nttajira

    mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

    and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

    that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

    they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

     

    you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

    if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

    - services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

    - no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

    - REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

    we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

    my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

    they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

    SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

     

    this is a discussion forum.

     

    Why is it wrong to have a discussion.

     

    I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.

    How is that Rude?

     

    I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.

    Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,

     

    i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.

    image

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member

    I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

     

    Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

     

    http://smedsblog.com/2014/02/11/the-sandbox-mmo/  -  Here smedley talks about the content mmorpg and whats required of it.

     

    http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/   - Yoshi-P on what the free to play model would mean versus sub based games.

     

    I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    If it went b2p or f2p there will be a cash to gold conversion system, and rl money will be able to influence in game outcomes. I don't want that. That's my argument against.

    I completely agree.

     

    I think any sort of Cash Shop or RL Money to Gold conversion would destroy this game simply because of the IP used.  To me it would completely take the player out of the ESO world and make it seem like any other fantasy IP.

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

     

    Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

     

     

     

     

    I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

    I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

  • TrivanDKTrivanDK CopenhagenPosts: 10Member Uncommon

    Being an old timer - I have grown up with P2P, so that might influence my answer :)

    I would assume that a P2P model (in a game like ESO) would bring in more money to Zenimax than a F2P model would - it would of course heavely be influenced by the quality of the F2P shop - if it was made like Neverwinters, well then it is road to faliuer.

    The subscription model will bring in a steady flow of money, to most extend even a very accurate forecast on the next few months cash flow - this will give a developer the security to focus 100% on new interesting content - and not worry about what new stuff to sell at the shop - what new pets do we have to create, new emotes or whatever - focus will be on improving the game adding new content

    I would also assume that sticking to the P2P model, will exclude some players, especially young players, since they might not have the money to pay for it - again being an old man, I find that the average 12 years old kid normally aren’t doing anything good for the game - so less immature players is an upside for me (the flip side of this is, if we end up with too few players, the game will die - so it’s a balance)

     

    I would like to go on - but work is calling - so have to get back with more :)

     

    Best

    Trivan

    (no English is not my native language)

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member
    Originally posted by onlinenow25
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

     

    Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

     

    http://smedsblog.com/2014/02/11/the-sandbox-mmo/  -  Here smedley talks about the content mmorpg and whats required of it.

    http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/   - Yoshi-P on what the free to play model would mean versus sub based games.

     

    I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

    I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

    I see nothing wrong with F2P, but some games are just not made for F2P.   ESO is one of those games that F2P would hurt it.    Not to say it shouldn't go  Hybrid.   Hybrid is a great way to go like LOTRO did, because LOTRO only sliced up its content and gave it out as Buy to Play,  was content that was for sub players as well.    Long as a game company develops for the sub player base and then sells that content to Buy to Play,  it would work.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon

     Almost all F2P games that have not been supported by a subscription for several years (ie LOTRO / EQ2 having vast content only because of the several years of subscriptions they had) are dismal pieces of crap. They have insane restriction like you must pay to equip decent gear drops you find or walled off content. They make you jump through hoops like having to log on every day to maintain some progress (heaven forbid you don't log in every 24hrs) or have several different currencies (gold, gems, merchant bars etc etc). In the end the few players that do pay anything are paying so a bunch of cheap ass freeloaders that add nothing to the game van play for free. Development  changes from going all to new content to going to mostly developing new cash shop items that cheapen the game. If you want TESO F2P please go play the F2P game of your choice. There are plenty out currently.( and you won't see me going to their forums asking the game become P2P. Basically with F2P you get what you pay for, Leave TESO to those of us that would rather pay one basic price monthly and have the new content actually be content instead of $25 dollar shiny cash shop horses

      Think B2P is better? Then go play GW2. That game has only proven that with the lack of continued funds you again have cash shop content being king in developments mind, lack of any decent continued content. (living story was poor at best) and limied ability to test or create anything new other then skins (thus the removal of trinity, and horizontal leveling).

      Sorry if I seem overly negative but as pointed out there are games for the F2P, and B2P players, please don't try and drag every game down that that level. I really suspect if F2P and B2P games were that good then we wouldn't be having this many threads asking TESO become one as the OP's would be playing in said games instead of trying to turn TESO into one.

     

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by onlinenow25
    Originally posted by nttajira

    mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,

    and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.

    that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.

    they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.

     

    you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.

    if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.

    - services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )

    - no cash shop ( no the horse not one )

    - REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )

    we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.

    my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??

    they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....

    SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.

     

    Not to be mean but your post didn't really make any sense.  I don't know if you were drunk when you posted this but...  I really have no idea what your saying.

     

    This is a forum.  In forums discussions happen.  If you don't like the discussion you can not post in that thread.

     

     

    On-topic

    Personally I don't think F2P would work well with this game simply based on the IP, but I do think a B2P would work with paid expansions.  

    I would say they could add a cash shop for cosmetic, but I feel like any cash shop in an Elder Scrolls Title just MURDERS the IP and makes it not feel like a game that shouldn't have used the IP.

    But currently with all the bugs/dupes/bots/hacks this is the least of their worries currently.  

     You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.

     Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.

  • AsariashaAsariasha Somewhere inPosts: 218Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by onlinenow25
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

     

    Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

     

     

     

     

    I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

    I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

     

    Not true. Please differentiate between content updates and bugfix / balancing updates. There is a huge difference.

     

    /ontopic

     

    PRO SUBSCRIPTION IN MMORPGS

     

    Quality

     

    A subscription model allows the developer to maintain more than just a skeleton crew meaning that both, the level of quality and quantity of updates exceeds the one of a free-2-play game

     

    Availability of Content

     

    Free-2-Play games must monetize. Players are artificially limited when it comes to experiencing the content. Also things like inventory space are extraordinary limited, directly or indirectly, in order to increase sales of inventory upgrades.

     

    Sick Monetization

     

    Simple updates are sold for big prices. Taking Marvel Heroes as example, because it was mentioned before:

     

    - Certain heroes must be unlocked for cash

    - If you want to have a new look for your toon, you must invest 10 - 50 US-Dollars. That is for a single costume. Of course you can choose the Mega Pack for 199 US-Dollars, but even this one does not include all costumes.

     

    The whole game is optimized to create revenues and we are talking here about big revenues based upon a small percentage of paying players. While the free-2-play players may not experience the game in its full scale, the ones willing to pay quickly invest hundreds of dollars and that is not what I call user friendly.

     

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,497Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     

    Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?

     

    Here's the only reasons why I see them NOT changing the pay model.

    1. Their billing system cannot process real time payments, this means subs are the only way

    2. They are having growing subscriptions every month, again no need to change

    3. They have no in-house business intelligence/analytics team to run a micro-transaction based game shop - you need to keep a real time pulse on player spending trends and player browsing trends in an online store - without this data you're driving blind, and will have major issues in monetizing players

    Those would be my reasons to NOT change payment model.

  • winterwinter El Paso, TXPosts: 2,276Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by onlinenow25
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    I'm glad you asked this.  I will give you the most scientific answer to date.   Content...

     

    Content is the reason a game should have a sub based model.  It has been proven in the past that development teams have greater size of update content when they all have to work on content for a game instead of for a cash shop to earn its money.   Final Fantasy's director Yoshi talked about this and so has SOE's ceo Smedley.

     

     

     

     

    I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content.  People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.

    I have a game that points to the opposite.  Regardless if you like it or not Marvel Heroes adds more to the game in their weekly patches than some companies add in years.

     humm tried Marvel hero's and cant say I found much there. Really it seemed more a ARPG then a MMO to me, and not as good as any of the diablos IMO. Truely I haven't kept up on Marvel heros but last I heard the only thing I heard them really adding was some new heros and skins all of which were cash shop content.

  • prowessprowess st louis, MOPosts: 164Member

    The core technology that this game is built on is extremely easy to exploit..  a cracked client can discover resources from extreme distances and teleport to them to gather.  It is also possible to spoof your stamina so that you never have to stop sprinting or tumbling.  It's also possible to discover enemy player locations, regardless of line of sight or stealth mechanics.

     

    The client can be manipulated in so many ways that it is impossible for us to know all of them at this point in the game.

     

    If the game was free to play, it would be flooded with 100x more bots and cheaters...

     

    I am suspicious that the game was intentionally created with such vulnerabilities to invite cheaters that they can ban, knowing that they will increase their revenue by buying new accounts..  They will always buy new accounts because the game is immensely easy to exploit and therefore extremely profitable on the black market.

     

    Legit players with wives and jobs will buy the game for their love of The Elder Scrolls, they will buy black market goods and gold because they don't have the time to devote to gathering the immense resources that are required to be successful which will keep the bots in business..  And zenimax will ban the bots who will buy even more accounts, keeping them in business.

    image
    I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  • askdabossaskdaboss LondonPosts: 631Member

    Same old topic. I still haven't seen any proponent of P2P provide any "valid" argument. Most of the arguments are:

    - Hypothetical problems generated by the B2P/F2P models (found in some poor implementations of these models, admittedly)

    - Hypothetical qualities of P2P games that we haven't seen in years in any P2P game

     

    Indeed while I can point you to great and successful implementations of B2P and F2P models as evidence of the success of these models...

    What you will see is that nobody will be able to point to great and successful implementation of pure P2P model (that more oever offer significant difference with a B2P or F2P model).

     

    People's ideal vision of a P2P game (the P2P graal) simply isn't anywhere to be found and so my conclusion is that the model must/should be dead.

  • askdabossaskdaboss LondonPosts: 631Member
    Originally posted by winter

     You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.

     Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.

    GW2 is B2P.

    Please name a P2P game that adds more content than GW2 then.

  • prowesssprowesss St. Louis, MOPosts: 69Member
    How is my argument for p2p not valid?

    image
    I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  • jesteralwaysjesteralways ChittagongPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    It is not only ESO but also every other subscription only mmorpg should change model to b2p with optional subscription. buying a game then being unable to play until i pay more is not really a good deal for me and i can say it is not a good deal for many players.  

    i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
    Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon

    Don't know but maybe I am a rich snob. 15$ a months doesn't really mean much to me. Considering how much time I spend in an MMO it is a ridiculous low amount of money anyway. If I wouldn't play an MMO during that time I would spend much more money on other things.

    So, if you can't afford 15$/month for a hobby as time consuming as an MMO all I can say is: Better spend that time improving your financial situation.

    This "I want it all and I want it for free" attitude is nonsense. We live in aworld dominated by capitalism. Money makes the world go around.

    I am not even going into details why F2P sucks for any individual dedicated MMO player who can afford this low amount of money. They have been named hundreds of times.

    If an MMO could offer both, F2P and P2P, sure why not. But please on seperate servers and the content created must not be adjusted to support the F2P model. Of course this is not possible and will not happen.

    Flame me as long as you want, but that's my oppinion.  ;)

     

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon

    I would like to respond to this but I would first like to know if the OP is playing this game.

    I feel as though a lot of the things that I might say could only be understood by a person who has been in there and so....

    Are you playing ESO Moe?

    image
  • StarIStarI waka wakaPosts: 924Member Uncommon

    That's an easy one.

     

    I am far from being rich but 0,43 EUR/day (13/month) I consider as close as it gets to free.

    The f2p that some like so blindly is much less free in reality.

    Either you pay in form of having a gimped character blocked from a lot of content OR if you do decide to cash in it is far too easy (due to human nature which marketing is trying to exploit) ending up paying more than 0,43 EUR/day and possibly still be limited in some way.

    Plus it's easier to just not resub and vote with your wallet in case iyou're not happy with development and/or service.

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,754Member Uncommon

    MMOexposed is mounting a campaign against ESO about this, here is his other thread where he asks the same question: 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6298489#6298489

    Many players now only want F2P MMOs, they hate the idea they cannot play any game they want. He is not alone in doing these sort of threads, I am sure we will have more.

  • otacuotacu BolzanoPosts: 547Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    This is a decent civil forum which we can have a good civil debate and discussion.

     

    So I want to hear the argument of the "Anti-ESO Payment Model changers"

    on

    Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?

     

    I want to hear both sides of the argument, but I will start with the voices of those who believe ESO should NOT change its current payment model.

    Read fine print below....

     

    Edit: I believe both sides in this should have a chance to defend their argument, which is why I am asking the "Anti-ESO Payment model changers" to voice their opinion on this.

    It's quite simple

     

    Because it has paywalls like a F2P yet it tries to charge a monthly sub.

  • KinadoKinado lisbonPosts: 198Member

    I like how so very few people are against the 15$ dollar price tag. Its either B2P, sub 15$ or F2P. What about lowering that sub fee a little bit?

    Let's imagine ESO without all the bugs.

    ESO is worth the box price, it has a lot of content even though its not an Elder Scrolls game at heart and it fails as a MMO aswell. It has an identity problem, looks confused. At this moment, the game is not worth the 15$ a month, its not even worth a subscription. Why? Because the game forces you to quest and questing is the only way to level up. That's it, no other alternatives besides power leveling with groups of mobs.

    Plus, XP at level veteran ranks has been nerfed and serve as a softgate to keep you there a LONG time while zenimax prepares its future content. Questing remains the only way to reach max level. Is this worth a monthly sub?

    The game will indeed have some content injected to it soon enough, it may justify the sub fee sometime in the future. But why 15$ a month? Why not 7$?

    Not to mention the game will come out on consoles which require a sub fee to play games online.

    I support a monthly fee if the game is worth it. I support cash shops if they only offer services as change character name,race or gender. Change servers. Buy XP boosts. Nothing that interferes with the game itself, no pay2win or pay2lookgood.

    Monthly fees don't have to be 15$ a month for a game to be lucrative. That's just putting the same old price in hope people will take the bite as usual. At least give players an alternative way to play the game as Wildstar done with its CREDD system.

    All facts point out, taking the state of the game into consideration, that Zenimax is greedy and wants more than its offering to its customers.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    Because f2p is not free. And I'm tired of paying more than $15 per month for less features so that high school kids don't have to ask mommy for game money.

    And yes, I do have to spend money, because someone has to, games are not free. If we all took the attitude of "just play it for free" then the game shuts down.
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