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sludgebeardsludgebeard Tampa, FLPosts: 532Member Uncommon

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  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon

    I'm not really surprised it didn't pan out well for them post-KS.

    Asking people to pay a monthly membership to get access to a site, to participate in the development of a game was just a bad idea, IMO. Sure, it's nice to feel like you're "part" of something, but then really... what were people getting? 

    That could have just as well been a public forum section. What was it, really? A section of the forums where people discuss and debate ideas for the game and give feedback on what they think. Err.. people do that all the time, every day, on any given MMO's forums. For free. It's only special because now, suddenly, they've paid money for the privilege? Sorry, but to me that just seemed to be them making money off of making people feel "special", doing something any one of them could and would have been doing anyway. 

    It also took a lot of the wind out of my sails when they started talking about going for more and more outside investors, especially as it became obvious the KS wasn't working out. Wasn't the whole idea behind the game about making a MMO that couldn't be made if investors or publishers were involved? Isn't the problem with investors that they're all focused on following the "WoW model" to try and maximize the return on their investment? Isn't that supposed to be the opposite of what they were trying to do with Pantheon? And then they seek out those exact people to try and get it made anyway???

    I'm really trying to not go into bash mode here, but it's difficult. The only thing I'm left thinking when I consider their every step in this process, from the KS on, is "what the hell are they thinking?"

    I still think that, having failed the KS, they should have just gone back to the drawing board, considered the KS ordeal a learning experience. I think they should have just put their heads together, did some homework on how the successful KS campaigns have been run, assembled a more impressive, complete and detailed presentation, with more than just screenshots of early dungeon work and concept art. I think they have to completely revisit the reward tiers and goals, and not include things people consider core, "day one" content, as "stretch goals". 

    Their idea of asking people to re-pledge with them, and pay a subscription fee to get "special access" to "special forums" on their website (which was only really fleshed out toward the end of the KS campaign as well... specifically for that reason) just did not sit well with me. I know it didn't sit well with many others, either, considering how much less money they raised post-KS.

    They seriously need to go back to the drawing board and re-think this entire thing from the start. I don't know what they think they're doing, or what they think they're going to do, but so far it hasn't been working.

     

  • MargraveMargrave Knoxville, TNPosts: 634Member Uncommon
    I'm sorry but at this point when I see the name Brad McQuaid I drop interest at once. I don't agree with his 'vision' at all. In fact, that 'vision' ran me away from EQ as soon as there were viable alternatives.
  • kridakkridak orangeville, ONPosts: 10Member Uncommon

    Some of us actually want a challenging game....there are none currently.

     

    If this company can give us one i thank them.

  • st3v3b0st3v3b0 Gainesville, FLPosts: 147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    I'm not really surprised it didn't pan out well for them post-KS.

    Asking people to pay a monthly membership to get access to a site, to participate in the development of a game was just a bad idea, IMO. Sure, it's nice to feel like you're "part" of something, but then really... what were people getting?  

    Tell that to all of the monthly subscribers of Star Citizen (SC).  The problem with most of these other people trying to copycat SC is they have nothing to show except theory.  Most people do not trust theory (like myself), but if the company can show they are REALLY developing the game and not just release lore and concept art then they have a chance to be successful.  Brad and Pantheon did not learn from their failed KickStarter as they claimed they did.  If they really learned from it they would not have been so hasty to create a dumb down site to collect money from with (again) no real content to show why people should invest.

    In a nutshell.. Games need to be further along in the process before trying to get money from people.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by st3v3b0
    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    I'm not really surprised it didn't pan out well for them post-KS.

    Asking people to pay a monthly membership to get access to a site, to participate in the development of a game was just a bad idea, IMO. Sure, it's nice to feel like you're "part" of something, but then really... what were people getting?  

    Tell that to all of the monthly subscribers of Star Citizen (SC).  The problem with most of these other people trying to copycat SC is they have nothing to show except theory.  Most people do not trust theory (like myself), but if the company can show they are REALLY developing the game and not just release lore and concept art then they have a chance to be successful.  Brad and Pantheon did not learn from their failed KickStarter as they claimed they did.  If they really learned from it they would not have been so hasty to create a dumb down site to collect money from with (again) no real content to show why people should invest.

    In a nutshell.. Games need to be further along in the process before trying to get money from people.

    Fair point... I'll qualify my statement, then...

    For SC, while I still think it's kinda cheesy to request money from people to join a message forum community, at least it's being done with a product that has successfully funded, several times over. It's set up in support of a product that has clearly shown results, and that came out of the gate strong with lots to show.

    Pantheon limped out the door with its campaign, continued to limp along throughout it, and then even farther after the campaign ended - until now they've finally had to halt progress. The forum membership seemed to be more to soften and augment the blow of the failed KS campaign than to augment it.

     

    I still maintain, if the VR guys take some time, do some studying and research, follow the successful campaigns, see how they're set up and run, see how their reward tiers are structured, get tons more content ready and then re-present it all with a new KS campaign, they might well succeed next time. Probably not to SC levels, but at least enough to meet their initial goals.

     

    Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a game like this happen. Absolutely. I'm not knocking the game, the concept, the vision.. any of it. I'm just really disappointed in how they've managed it. They needed to knock it out of the park, and they just didn't. They seemed to rush into it thinking just a cool sounding concept and the phrase "Brad McQuaid, original creator of EQ1" would be enough. It clearly wasn't.

     

  • DakeruDakeru Posts: 1,656Member Uncommon

    I'm not really following this game but another indie project.

    For a year now we only got posts along the lines of "things are looking good - we will soon be back on track"

    After a year of this shit no one believed it anymore so the head dev wiped the forum.

     

    Well there is progress again now but during that one year a single honest post would have been refreshing.

    I have an entitlement delusion - because I have this strange idea that my 50$ should have the same value as anyone else's 50$
    "Your account is not entitled to the same value as a new account. Just saying you are entitled to the same as someone else because you said so is exactly what expresses your entitlement issues."

  • kilunkilun Apopka, FLPosts: 709Member Common
    Originally posted by kridak

    Some of us actually want a challenging game....there are none currently.

     

    If this company can give us one i thank them.

    There are many challenging games, you just have to think of them.  Are you the best PoE tournament guy/gal?  Pretty sure 1 hour timed events are pretty challenging. 

    There are all kinds of challenging games out their that require patience and skill.  If your talking about crappy user interfaces, crappy games, and fighting all kinds of non-mobs then that is a different story.

    Not to mention if a game isn't challenging to you and your friends, try more fun non-optimal builds.  That can always give a challenge.  A game is what you make of it, not what the developers hand you sometimes.

    www.ozumgames.com

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    I've been telling people for months here that any project that he's heading up will fail.  He got lucky when the industry was young, but it's obvious he doesn't have the vision or connections to make anything happen.  I just feel bad for the people who waste their money on ventures like this.

    I really think that his biggest problem is in assuming that a vocal minority opinion somehow translates to wider appeal.  It's easy to talk to people who share your views and ideas, and feel like there's this really huge untapped potential, when the reality is usually very far off.

    And that's fine, because even niche genres deserve their games.  His problem is in trying to setup a project that was way too large in scope, compared to the potential funding available (ie: the vocal minority that share his opinions can only fund him so far).  Pantheon is a game that could have worked out if he started small, maybe taking the bottom-up approach to world building rather than the top-down approach.

    Another person with similar issues is Curt Schilling, where he probably got a false sense of security with his game studio, based on years of playing MMO's and thinking "I could make one of these" and having his circle of friends saying "Hell  yeah, you should do it!"

    You make me like charity

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    The problem is that this guy has no business running a company.  Some people have the ability to lead others, and he clearly does not.  Read up on all the troubles Vanguard had and you wonder why anyone would give him a single dime.

     

    The ideas of the game are fine, but get someone who knows how to execute plans in a timely fashion.

  • JimmyYOJimmyYO Columbus, OHPosts: 520Member
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    The problem is that this guy has no business running a company.  Some people have the ability to lead others, and he clearly does not.  Read up on all the troubles Vanguard had and you wonder why anyone would give him a single dime.

     

    The ideas of the game are fine, but get someone who knows how to execute plans in a timely fashion.

    Agreed.

  • sludgebeardsludgebeard Tampa, FLPosts: 532Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JimmyYO
    Originally posted by koboldfodder

    The problem is that this guy has no business running a company.  Some people have the ability to lead others, and he clearly does not.  Read up on all the troubles Vanguard had and you wonder why anyone would give him a single dime.

     

    The ideas of the game are fine, but get someone who knows how to execute plans in a timely fashion.

    Agreed.

    Kobold hit the nail on the head. 

     

    At the same time I almost cant fault Brad for his thinking of trying to be 100% in control of his vision because we saw what happpened to EQ after they tore his vision apart.

     

    Then again I can fault him for not realizing his own shortcomings in marketing and business choices because he inadvertently is putting other people's careers in danger by not coming to terms with his own.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Look on the plus side. Most successful subscription MMO. They got more subs pre-development than any game in history!

    image
  • SephrosSephros Somewhere, CAPosts: 396Member Uncommon
    People were paying a monthly subscription for forum access??

    Error: No Keyboard Detected!
    Press F1 to continue......

  • Castekin1000Castekin1000 EdinbrughPosts: 36Member
     

    Post Deleted....

  • RobsolfRobsolf Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 4,249Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Castekin1000
    Originally posted by Sephros
    People were paying a monthly subscription for forum access??

     What amazes me is that Brad and co have somehow managed to raise 160K+ from there monthly subscription based forum.  Now that they have admitted that no game is being made and the money will not be going towards game development instead of giving the money back they have stated that they need to use the $161,605 to maintain the website....uh huimage

     So in translation the money he scammed out of his foolish fans, he has pocketed and done a runner just like he did in Vanguard.  What a con artist.

    Yep, that definitely takes some serious stones.

    It's too bad.  Kickstarter and similar concepts are great for innovation, and stuff like this going on gonna shine a bad light on all of it.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robsolf
    Originally posted by Castekin1000
    Originally posted by Sephros
    People were paying a monthly subscription for forum access??

     What amazes me is that Brad and co have somehow managed to raise 160K+ from there monthly subscription based forum.  Now that they have admitted that no game is being made and the money will not be going towards game development instead of giving the money back they have stated that they need to use the $161,605 to maintain the website....uh huimage

     So in translation the money he scammed out of his foolish fans, he has pocketed and done a runner just like he did in Vanguard.  What a con artist.

    Yep, that definitely takes some serious stones.

    It's too bad.  Kickstarter and similar concepts are great for innovation, and stuff like this going on gonna shine a bad light on all of it.

    Well, no..

    Sephros's depiction of it isn't accurate. It's actually rather libelous.

    The money they received via forum memberships and post-KS pledges went toward paying the team members so they could continue working on the game full-time, without having to worry so much about "day jobs" to pay the bills. Not many of their KS backers re-pledged. Consequently, they didn't get enough money to continue, and so they have to go back to doing the "day job" thing, while they seek outside investors to get funding so they can continue development again.

    What they explained is that the money being paid for the forum access now is going to go toward maintaining the website's upkeep (hosting, etc), but will not go toward the game's development because they don't have enough to do that.

    It's disturbing how eager people are to villify McQuaid and the VR people. I get it... people don't like or trust Brad because of Vanguard. Fine. But to misrepresent a situation - which they have themselves already openly discussed and explained is just wrong. Especially considering all the facts are readily available with a simple google search or visit to the official site... where it's right on their front page.

    I suppose some feel they're better served just making stuff up as they go, but there's no excuse for it. As the saying goes: In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.

  • Castekin1000Castekin1000 EdinbrughPosts: 36Member

     

    Post Deleted...

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Castekin1000
    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    The money they received via forum memberships and post-KS pledges went toward paying the team members so they could continue working on the game full-time,

    In other words to pay the back wages Brad owed to people.  They must have known after there failed Kickstarter they would not be able to fund the project.

    Wow... Well this certainly sets the tone for the rest of your post, now doesn't it...

    No one, including Brad, were getting paid for their time/effort up to and throughout the KS campaign. They were all doing it voluntarily, pro-bono, in order to get the project going, with the intent of having a successful kickstarter so they could begin work on it in earnest.  They all knew what the plan was. They all knew what was at stake. They all knew there was a chance they wouldn't be compensated for any of their time or effort. They all made the decision - as grown, responsible adults - to go forward and do it on those terms.

    They also explained the situation a number of times, in interviews, live streams, etc.

    Did you bother to do any actual research on this? Or are you just making stuff up as you go along, based on what sounds good to you?

     

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    so they have to go back to doing the "day job" thing, while they seek outside investors to get funding so they can continue development again.

    What day jobs they were all unemployed.  Do you think these guys have great careers going and decided to resign to work on Brads kickstarter .

    Well that answers my last question. You haven't done any research, and you are just making stuff up as you go.

    They'd mentioned that if/when the campaign wasn't successful, that they wouldn't be able to work on it full-time, as they would have to spend their time doing other things in order to bring in money and pay the bills, while they sought funding through other avenues - some of which they were already pursuing. Notice I used the term "day-job" in quotes? In other words - they would have to use their time earning a living doing non-Pantheon-related stuff.

    Not that difficult to comprehend. Well, except for someone who's deliberately not trying to.

     

     

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    What they explained is that the money being paid for the forum access now is going to go toward maintaining the website's upkeep (hosting, etc),

    Yes of course it will cost thousands and thousands to pay for hosting a website huh.image

     Okay, so you obviously don't read at all. That would explain your previous remarks.

    I'll explain it again. Please read it carefully this time, and try to comprehend what I'm saying...

    The money they'd brought in from the post-KS re-pledges - here's the important part, so pay attention -  went toward paying them as they worked on it post-KS campaign. Those funds are gone, as they went toward paying the team members while working on the project full-time. The only funds they have coming in now are whatever subscription fees they're receiving, and those are - per their own say-so - going toward keeping the website going.

    Again... It's not a complicated thing to grasp... unless you're deliberately not trying to.

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    people don't like or trust Brad because of Vanguard. Fine. But to misrepresent a situation - which they have themselves already openly discussed

    No people do not trust brad because he has mismanaged the kickstater just like he mismanaged Vanguard.  That and he is an Opiate addict.

    First, I agree.. The KS was poorly handled. I've said so myself. However, it's not that "Brad mismanaged it". They all mismanaged the Kickstarter. They were all part of that campaign. They were all doing interviews, presentations. They all were contributing materials and info for the KS updates. Brad wasn't doing everything in a bubble. They were all working on it as a team. I shoudln't have to explain any of this to you. It should be self-evident - if you were actually even following the campaign in the first place - and with each response you give, it's increasingly clear to me you weren't. Or, you were and have absolutely no problem flat out lying about it.

    Do you have the same disdain for every KS that doesn't succeed? Or is this one special, because Brad's involved?

    Next... Vanguard was partially his fault. He has admitted as much. However, it was not entirely his fault and a good portion of it was out of his hands. Decisions were made that were out of his control and he could do nothing but go along with them. Again, he's since come clean about that whole mess as well. And of course, you didn't bother to pay any attention to that either, because it's easier to remain willfully ignorant and keep bashing on someone about a situation you clearly know nothing about.

    Finally... Can you prove he's an opiate addict? That's kind of a serious accusation to throw around, especially if you can't back it up. I know it's a common claim tossed around the internet, started by someone formerly working on VG. I know it's readily embraced as "fact" by everyone who's decided Brad McQuaid touched them inappropriately...

    However, wanting to believe something is true  doesn't actually make it so. There's this thing called "the burden of proof" and the onus is on those making the claim.

    You're making the claim here. So where's your proof? Were you there? Pictures? Videos? Or is "well, someone said it in an interview, so it must be true" all you really have to go on?

     

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    It's disturbing how eager people are to villify McQuaid

    You know what I find disturbing....

    Is that people like McQuaid are quite happy to blow other peoples money, if he wants to make a new game in the future let him put his own money in to fund it first.  Lets see how eager he is to waste his own money.

    He's not blowing anyone else's money. People willingly and knowingly contributed to the KS. They knew the risks and.. hey... they weren't even charged since the KS didn't succeed. Those who pledged after the KS did so full knowing they might not see anything for it. So, he didn't "blow anyone's money". He used it for exactly what they were intending to... and were shown the proof of those efforts on the website.

    Tang if you really want to throw your money away, don`t throw at  con-man like Brad, give to a charity like cancer research or something where might actually do some good.

    I do donate to charities, since you mention it. However, don't worry about me or how I choose to spend or invest my money. I don't consider Brad McQuaid a con-man. But then again, I don't harbor this irrational hatred towards him that you and others like you do. Unlike you and others like you, I realize that there's always more than one side to any situation. I also realize that everything that went wrong with Vanguard was not 100% Brad McQuaid. There were many people - even above Brad - making decisions. The consequences of those decisions - along with Brad's over-reaching on VG's design - is what did that game in. That you, and people like you, insist on putting 100% of the situation on him - as though he was acting alone - just speaks volumes to your utter dishonesty about the situation.

    It might be easier to just blame a single person and decide "well, they're the face of the project, so I guess it's all their fault". But it's also naive and intellectually lazy.

    But hey.. whatever helps you sleep at night.

     

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kridak

    Some of us actually want a challenging game....there are none currently.

     

    If this company can give us one i thank them.

    Yes, but Brad's idea of a challenge is fighting WITH the game, not IN the game.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member
    Doesn't Brad have anyone in the media to back him up with some advertisments or connections that could get the funding?   Just shocking that the creator of EQ would not have enough support for anything.
  • ZarriyaZarriya Long Island, NYPosts: 288Member Uncommon

    It is a process. He is currently recording a demo to present to investors. Yesterday he wrote "4. Received a number of good leads for potential investors -- reaching out to them to get them what they need."  

    source: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/837/quick-sit-rep

     

  • NirrtixNirrtix Friendswood, TXPosts: 173Member
    Originally posted by Zarriya

    It is a process. He is currently recording a demo to present to investors. Yesterday he wrote "4. Received a number of good leads for potential investors -- reaching out to them to get them what they need."  

    source: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/837/quick-sit-rep

     

    Brad made a Rough Draft Prototype. He is reaching out for investors. I do not know oh his leads status, but I do believe fora prototype as an investor myself I believe it looked better than the Shroud of the Avatar BETA.

    Nirrtix
    ALPHAs:
    -Pantheon
    -Shroud of the Avatar
    -Camelot Unchained
    BETAs:
    -World of Warcraft
    -City of Heroes
    -Star Wars Galaxies
    -Saga of Ryzom
    -Homeworld
    -Starcraft II
    -Warcraft III
    -Hearthstone
    -Star Wars The Old Republic
    -Vanguard Saga of Heroes

  • jons000jons000 Silver Spring, MDPosts: 13Member
    Originally posted by Nirrtix
    Originally posted by Zarriya

    It is a process. He is currently recording a demo to present to investors. Yesterday he wrote "4. Received a number of good leads for potential investors -- reaching out to them to get them what they need."  

    source: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/837/quick-sit-rep

     

    Brad made a Rough Draft Prototype. He is reaching out for investors. I do not know oh his leads status, but I do believe fora prototype as an investor myself I believe it looked better than the Shroud of the Avatar BETA.

    I wouldn't say Brad made the prototype.  It's more of a case of a team made the prototype, kind of like how Brad didn't make EverQuest, a team made EverQuest.  Can people stop attributing the work of multiple people to this one guy?  All Brad did single handedly was steal money from the crowd funding under the guise of a "pay advance" to the tune of $50000.  I don't see how any of the community is O.K. with that...  Personal problems or not, you don't take a third of the funds for your startup and then shutter the project.  His team has fallen apart and people like you, Nirrtix, still think Brad is the bestest and will deliver you to nostalgia heaven! He won't, but he will gladly keep taking your money.. To keep up the $200 a year site of course.  What a crock.  

  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    Scam this or that....

     

    I don´t think for a second that Brad or anyone else at the team are out to per see scam anyone. But as they say the road the the nether is paved with good intentions. They might not have the skills/organization to pull the project off and for the end user it will not really matter if their intent was good or nefarious.

     

    But i honestly do not think they are out to scam people.

  • tyrancytyrancy Red Deer, ABPosts: 26Member
    Originally posted by tawess

    Scam this or that....

     

    I don´t think for a second that Brad or anyone else at the team are out to per see scam anyone. But as they say the road the the nether is paved with good intentions. They might not have the skills/organization to pull the project off and for the end user it will not really matter if their intent was good or nefarious.

     

    But i honestly do not think they are out to scam people.

    It's been pretty well stated there is no one else there. It is All Brad. The team walked, they were never employees to begin with. Brad is the Only person under VRI, clearly stated as well. VRI got money, as a corp, to make a game. Brad took 45K from that corp for personal use that was not part of making the game. Sounds nefarious to me.

    Keep moving.

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