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Themepark pret-a-porter brainwash

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  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Meowhead
    ...but the whole 'I believe what I believe because I think I'm right, and evidence is boring' thing sums up pretty well why all your arguments can't be taken seriously.

    It is called a logical assumption. And the good thing is, it doesn't need any evidence to be right :) I use it in opposition of popular assumptions.

    Many people here write about market sentiments, and devs decisions for the games without any evidence, but you don't blame them for that.

    Common opinion: Why we have so many dress up games, themeparks, games with limited PvP, trade, interaction, MMOs for solo players and etc. - cause market wants it - any evidence? No, but it is obvious. Or: Devs make marketing polls - any evidence? No, but it is obvious. And etc. 

    So I make logical assumptions, but from my point of view.

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  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by Fenrir767
    You do realize that in Sandbox games custom gear is the bread and butter of crafters and colours so yeah it's the same thing your argument is not valid go play LOTRO and SWTOR and tell me who actually wears raid gear, just about no one they use separate cosmetic sets for the look nothing to do with dress up this thread is useless and you have been proven wrong give it up and can a mod please shut this thread!

    Maybe you need to try more games, LOTRO and SWTOR is very limited experience in MMORPGs.

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  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Apparently the past 10 years of WoW's dominance is not evidence. You keep on using the word 'logic' but I don't think it means what you think it means.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Waitsfield, VTPosts: 595Member
    Rift and TSW are two more with cosmetic features to go over the best gear in the game how about this name me at least 5 theme parks were the raid gear is the best looking, best stats without any cosmetic customizations to create a personalized look and where I need to play dress up.... If you can do that then your point won't be ridiculously unsubstantiated.
  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by ikcin

    So I make logical assumptions, but from my point of view.

    The problem is that you're ignoring actual evidence, and also making up your own history (Like 'fashion was not developed until the 18th century'), all based off of nothing more than your gut feeling.

    You can live in a world that is completely disconnected from everybody else, historical evidence, and using your own definitions and ignoring everybody else's experiences while saying yours hold absolute sway...

    ... but that's solipsism and means that basically this whole conversation consists of you in your own disconnected universe saying why it's right, and everybody else staring at you and wondering what's wrong with you. :(

  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Waitsfield, VTPosts: 595Member
    +1 to that post!
  • CreatorzimCreatorzim Perris, CAPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Creatorzim
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Creatorzim
    Originally posted by ikcin
    and you do? 

    No I don't, but tell me what you can do in GW2 or ESO after the end of the personal story? Go in dungeons to get better gear, kill mobs to get better gear... buy better gear? And why do you need a better gear?

    Or you can go in WvWvW or Cyrodiil and PvP in endless war for capital town, which means 24/7 pointless zerg. 

    Why do you need gear in any game then? You just get better gear to PVP. Why get better ships in Eve if all you are going to do is PVP, why get better gear in WoW if all you are going to do is raid, Why get better gear in the countless hundreds of other games Themepark or Sandbox if all you are going to do is just get better?

    PvP is for win. To beat opponents, to take their gear, castles and wives :) PvP is like classic games, chess for example, you play it to win. But PvP in ESO is not for win, it is pointless. At the other side raids are for better gear, they are some kind of dress up too. Anyway I'm not against dress up games in general, I don't like dress up games disguised as MMORPGs. You call them themeparks, but Lineage 2 is a themepark too, and it is not a dress up game.

    Lineage you get gear as well. 

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  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by Creatorzim

    PvP is for win. To beat opponents, to take their gear, castles and wives :) PvP is like classic games, chess for example, you play it to win. But PvP in ESO is not for win, it is pointless. At the other side raids are for better gear, they are some kind of dress up too. Anyway I'm not against dress up games in general, I don't like dress up games disguised as MMORPGs. You call them themeparks, but Lineage 2 is a themepark too, and it is not a dress up game.

    Lineage you get gear as well. 

    I still want to know what sort of chess he's playing where the winner takes their clothes and wife after it.

    I'm not sure that's following normal tournament rules, and I think somebody is taking advantage of other people's ignorance of the rules. :(

  • CreatorzimCreatorzim Perris, CAPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Meowhead
    ...but the whole 'I believe what I believe because I think I'm right, and evidence is boring' thing sums up pretty well why all your arguments can't be taken seriously.

    It is called a logical assumption. And the good thing is, it doesn't need any evidence to be right :) I use it in opposition of popular assumptions.

    Many people here write about market sentiments, and devs decisions for the games without any evidence, but you don't blame them for that.

    Common opinion: Why we have so many dress up games, themeparks, games with limited PvP, trade, interaction, MMOs for solo players and etc. - cause market wants it - any evidence? No, but it is obvious. Or: Devs make marketing polls - any evidence? No, but it is obvious. And etc. 

    So I make logical assumptions, but from my point of view.

    Wouldnt WoW be the only game anyone should play? PvP and raiding means nothing in other games you are just wasting your time but if you are good enough you get paid to play WoW.

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  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon
    No Trade items is where I draw the line. I will never again play a MMO where items are not tradable between players.
  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by ikcin

    So I make logical assumptions, but from my point of view.

    The problem is that you're ignoring actual evidence, and also making up your own history (Like 'fashion was not developed until the 18th century'), all based off of nothing more than your gut feeling.

    You can live in a world that is completely disconnected from everybody else, historical evidence, and using your own definitions and ignoring everybody else's experiences while saying yours hold absolute sway...

    ... but that's solipsism and means that basically this whole conversation consists of you in your own disconnected universe saying why it's right, and everybody else staring at you and wondering what's wrong with you. :(

    And where are your actual evidences? Show me evidence that fashion /if you know what is this/ is invented before Maria Antoinette. You have no evidences too, just your logic.

    But +7 for chess :)

    image

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by Novusod
    No Trade items is where I draw the line. I will never again play a MMO where items are not tradable between players.

    Agree, with no trade the economy doesnt work. And without working economy there is no way to have good MMORPG.

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  • tawesstawess LkpgPosts: 2,536Member Uncommon

    17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about...

     

    I am also curious where the themepark thing fits in to it all....

     

    But that is just me.

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by tawess

    17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about... 

    A 34 year old Bulgarian man is very angry because other people enjoy dressing up their avatars in online games. 

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    Originally posted by tawess

    17 pages in and i still have no clue what the original argument was for/about... 

    A 34 year old Bulgarian man is very angry because other people enjoy dressing up their avatars in online games. 

    Or maybe some people enjoy it too much :) I'm sad, cause publishers sell me dress up games instead of MMORPGs. I really don't care what you do in front of your monitor... and please don't tell me.

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  • coorsguyscoorsguys Sacramento, CAPosts: 272Member
    So there really is no way to reply to this poster who has been brainwashed by the sandbox crew without him reporting you.  So I'd say he is wrong, the sandbox crowd is a very small % of the mmorpg that's why there are not too many of them left standing.  Majority enjoy the current way, maybe you should find a new hobby maybe join a nudest colony there you wouldn't have to worry about what people wear.   
  • Fenrir767Fenrir767 Waitsfield, VTPosts: 595Member
    He ignores anyone that asks him to prove his point still waiting for 5 theme parks where raid gear is the best looking with the best stats and no customization options for your look to personalize your avatar still no reply till he can do that his point is mute.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by ikcin
    I'm not using the word brainwash in negative term. It is happen all the time in modern society, every advertising campaign is at least try of brainwashing customers. The negative impact in MMOs for me is, that devs improve dress up elements at expense of other features, transforming dress up in the main goal of gaming.

     

    That's not how advertising actually works.

     

    "Dress up" is not the main goal of gaming (that I am aware of).

     

    Cosmetic features are popular, but they always have been, whether as developer features or mods.

     

    Other factors have had a much larger impact on gaming.  For instance, the rapid increase in cost associated with graphics engines and developing the assets for those grahics engines.Relatively speaking, much more game play is going to be sacrified to improve graphics than to add other game play elements because the cost for graphics has risen so much more than other elements of game development.

     

    It might be helpful if you gave specific examples of how games have gone from being about game play to being about the cosmetic features.  A "before" and "after" so people had something concrete to talk about.

    Differences among Gw1 and GW2 are very good example. In fact both use the same engine, with some improvements in GW2. 

     

     

    Neither GW1 nor GW2 are all about the fashion.  Both are very much about the PvP, which requires the gear.  Players have the option to change the appearance of their gear, but they are not going to trade worse stats for a better looking item and then compete in the game's main game play.

     

    Two things are required for your theory to be true.  One, the games need to have a fashion element.  Two, the games need to be primarily about that fashion element, with extra points for trading a previous focus, such as PvP for a the new focus of fashion.

     

    Unless I'm mistaken, you have yet to show a case where this has happened.

     

    **

     

    Perhaps you have gone too far with hyperbole?

     

    GW2 is about PvP!? Dude... One simple hint - there is no 1vs1 PvP in GW2. Second - there is no guild wars. It is not FFA PvP game. There is one big PvE world - which is GW2 in fact. Some mindless RvRvR zerg in which you even don't know the names of your opponents, and they are speechless like mobs. And there are Mists - some Moba style PvP, which is totally out of the entire game. So yeah, we have dress up game, mindless zerg, and some Moba.

    And about the theory, it sounds cool, is it right or not we will see. But it sounds cool cause you can find its happening in almost every new MMORPG. And your armor is not fancy like mine :)

     

    Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

     

    This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up".

     

    Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash".

     

    Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

    This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

    Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

    Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

     

    You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

    And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

    This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

    Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

    Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

     

    You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

    And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

     

    Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

     

    It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CreatorzimCreatorzim Perris, CAPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

    This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

    Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

    Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

     

    You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

    And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

     

    Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

     

    It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

     

    Wow has 1v1 pvp and has probably way more players doing it than there are Lineage players. 

    image

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Creatorzim
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Well, there's your problem.  You've taken the concept of PvP, and limited it to FFA PvP and  1v1 at that.  The reason you don't see any games that are about that style of PvP is because there have never been any games about that style of PvP.  The idea shouldn't be limited to PvP though.  A formerly raid based PvE game would have to have dropped the idea of raids or gearing up for raids in favor of dressing up characters for raids.  The best looking gear would be more desirable than the better performing gear.

    This is either a troll, or you're just wrong.  Games where it's possible to "dress up" don't prove any of your points.  There are no games that have dropped their primary game play mechanics (PvP or PvE) in favor of playing "dress up".  To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a 1v1 PvP MMORPG.  I'm not aware of any FFA PvP MMORPG that has dropped the PvP aspects of the game in favor of playing "dress up". 

    Oh, wait.  I get it now.  This is just another "games used to be worlds" thread.  Every old game allowed players to skill up, not requiring gear, and every game had FFA PvP and that's how you could tell they were worlds.  Right.  FFA PvP isn't a common game mechanic and gear matters, so that's how we can tell everything is a "pret-a-porter brainwash". 

    Do I get a cookie or an internets or something?

     

    You are WRONG :) Sry. FFA with 1vs1 PvP, let me see... Lineage 2! And half of the eastern MMOs. Maybe you play too much western MMOs. But it is not about PvP. Give me trade, politics, economics, give me something but not dressing up. Pls.

    And sry but I don't like aesthetic of nudes colonies. I'm a fashion man, just not in MMORPGs :)

     

    Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.

     

    It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it?

     

    Wow has 1v1 pvp and has probably way more players doing it than there are Lineage players. 

     

    WoW's central game play does not revolve around 1v1 PvP game play.  It exists, but it can be said to exist in any game that has a dueling capability and the option to flag for PvP.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Fair enough.  I'm not knowledgeable about all MMORPGs, everywhere.  If Lineage 2 is a 1v1 PvP game, then they exist.  So, point for you on 1v1 PvP MMORPGs.
    It may not look like it, but we're making some progress here.  If you could modify a game to make it not about fashion, how would you do it?  Take GW2 for instance.  How would you remove the "fashion" elements of the game?  Would all the gear look the same?  Would players no longer have any visual indicators as to the relative power levels of other players?  How would you do it? 

    You want not only criticism, but a solution. I'm not very sure for solutions... but OK. We don't need to remove fashion elements from GW2, but to make them a matter of choice. If we merge the game in one entity, with FFA PvP, tournaments, and 1vs1 PvP, integrated politics /not just pointless events/ with election of players, p2p trade, GW2 will be still a themepark game, but not a dress up game. And smarter raids will help a lot too :) /epic raids in GW2 are epic dull/ So you don't need to remove dress up at all, you need also other features and goals, along with dress up. 

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  • PatrickYPatrickY Vancouver, WAPosts: 1Member

    There's a lot of really weird stuff that's been said in this thread, but the idea that fashion didn't exist until Marie Antoinette just absolutely takes the cake. What... did she rise up from the sea like the Birth of Venus, hair immaculately coiffed in the world's first bouffant, bringing the gift of petticoats and corsets to all?

     

     

  • CreatorzimCreatorzim Perris, CAPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by PatrickY

    There's a lot of really weird stuff that's been said in this thread, but the idea that fashion didn't exist until Marie Antoinette just absolutely takes the cake. What... did she rise up from the sea like the Birth of Venus, hair immaculately coiffed in the world's first bouffant, bringing the gift of petticoats and corsets to all?

     

     

    Ya purple dye was discovered in the 400 BC....Used to show wealth...A little before the 1700 AD I would say lol. Not a new concept.

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This discussion has been closed.