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VZBV - warning letter to ESO

2

Comments

  • Joejc7135Joejc7135 Spring Hill, FLPosts: 209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

     

     Such an association is needed when it comes to a lawsuit or do you think you will succeed as a single consumer ? Your so called free thinking people are getting ripped off or cheated like everyone else. I dont see how such an association is a bad thing.

    Fair enough, I was of the same mind until I read about Corporatism and the way our system works. Regulatory agencies are largely controlled by the same industrys they are supposedly regulating. It's a huge reason why corporations have such power here in the US. Don't mistake me saying federal regulatory agencies are bad with the idea I tihnk there shouldn't be regulation. Regulation can be handled by the market, as it is in many countries. In many cases government regulation actually makes problems worse as the punishment is usually a fine and not the market alternative of going out of business. Personally I think losing your livlihood is a much scarier consequence then a fine.

     

    The idea of federal regulation is nice, like the idea of world peace. It's not what really goes on and it's no practical due to human nature.

  • duiLucidduiLucid marietta, GAPosts: 46Member

    First 30 days free.

    Card Authorization.

    Bug happened that accidentally fully charged people.

    People were refunded.

    Neck beards kept neck bearding.

    Ah, I love online gaming....

  • duiLucidduiLucid marietta, GAPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

     

     Such an association is needed when it comes to a lawsuit or do you think you will succeed as a single consumer ? Your so called free thinking people are getting ripped off or cheated like everyone else. I dont see how such an association is a bad thing.

     

    ...we aren't getting cheated... it's a sub game, like most worth while MMORPG's... that was clear from day one to anyone with a functioning brain stem.

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by duiLucid

    First 30 days free.

    Card Authorization.

    Bug happened that accidentally fully charged people.

    People were refunded.

    Neck beards kept neck bearding.

    Ah, I love online gaming....

    This pretty much sums up the whole ordeal quite nicely, if a little bit passive aggressive lol.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • bobfishbobfish SouthamptonPosts: 1,688Member
    Originally posted by Battlerock
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

     

     Such an association is needed when it comes to a lawsuit or do you think you will succeed as a single consumer ? Your so called free thinking people are getting ripped off or cheated like everyone else. I dont see how such an association is a bad thing.

     

    I would love it if American government stepped in and started regulating video game business models - but first we need to identify gaming as an addiction that can be medically treated, then we can start suing the big bad gaming companies, then and THEN they might straighten up, fall in line and quit trying to nickle and dime people through exploiting addictions much like Casinos gambling.

    The nickle n dime method is a perfectly valid business model that pre-dates video games, the issue is that in video games, the game is usually designed to steer you towards making a payment, pretending it is necessary to play the game when in reality it is optional. It isn't the business model that needs regulating, it is how they communicate it to the consumer.

     

    I also think it would be an interesting debate in the Senate about gaming addiction, I could imagine you'll have entertainment companies on one side saying it isn't addictive and pharmaceutical companies on the other side saying it is so they can peddle more drugs to combat it :)

  • LonzoLonzo GoettingenPosts: 235Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azzras
    Maybe it would be easier if all future games created in America don't release in EU?

    Devs can't ignore the german speaking market, it is the second biggest in the world.

    image
  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member
    Originally posted by duiLucid
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

     

     Such an association is needed when it comes to a lawsuit or do you think you will succeed as a single consumer ? Your so called free thinking people are getting ripped off or cheated like everyone else. I dont see how such an association is a bad thing.

     

    ...we aren't getting cheated... it's a sub game, like most worth while MMORPG's... that was clear from day one to anyone with a functioning brain stem.

     

    I was talking about such an association and consumers in general and not about the ESO case.

    And when it comes to your "funcitoning brain stem", just read the official customer support forums there is huge thread about people having issues with the ESO subscription practice. There is also an already  closed thread on these forums here. Personally I dont have issues and enjoy the game, but if so many people complain and some even write to a consumer protection association which starts an adhortatory letter, there has to be an issue.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Originally posted by Azzras
    Maybe it would be easier if all future games created in America don't release in EU?

    Devs can't ignore the german speaking market, it is the second biggest in the world.

    And Germans are pretty nice people, I like them in my games.

  • VrikaVrika FinlandPosts: 2,593Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

    From European viewpoint: VZBV complained that ESO's marketing information isn't accurate enough and/or clear enough.

    I'm used to seeing information as requirement for free thinking people to make their decisions, and I think it defies logic how some (mostly Americans) seem to see demands of accurate and complete information as a threat to their freedom to decide.

    EDIT: No personal insult meant. It's not just about ESO, but also about how people reacted when I tried to warn about Square Enix scamming people by omitting information about FF XIV's sub fee. As Finn I think some actions by companies are downright criminal, whereas Americans seem to think that people should just search the information themselves if it's not provided by companies /EDIT

  • Colt47Colt47 Naperville, ILPosts: 310Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    Originally posted by Azzras
    Maybe it would be easier if all future games created in America don't release in EU?

    Devs can't ignore the german speaking market, it is the second biggest in the world.

    And Germans are pretty nice people, I like them in my games.

    The irony of the situation is that as an American I can say that the German consumers wouldn't be missing very much if the US game companies DID stop publishing there.  At least the ones that are getting the infraction issues.

  • ckeeton999ckeeton999 valley center, CAPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by duiLucid
    Originally posted by spizz
    Originally posted by Joejc7135
    Oh boy...what would free thinking people capable of making their own decisions do without federal regulation agencys...Personally as an American it's embarrassing and insulting that a single cent of taxpayer money is spent on things like this. I don't know about the Germans.

     

     Such an association is needed when it comes to a lawsuit or do you think you will succeed as a single consumer ? Your so called free thinking people are getting ripped off or cheated like everyone else. I dont see how such an association is a bad thing.

     

    ...we aren't getting cheated... it's a sub game, like most worth while MMORPG's... that was clear from day one to anyone with a functioning brain stem.

     

    I was talking about such an association and consumers in general and not about the ESO case.

    And when it comes to your "funcitoning brain stem", just read the official customer support forums there is huge thread about people having issues with the ESO subscription practice. There is also an already  closed thread on these forums here. Personally I dont have issues and enjoy the game, but if so many people complain and some even write to a consumer protection association which starts an adhortatory letter, there has to be an issue.t

    the only issue is stupid people not knowing what an authorization charge is and bitching over $15

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,583Member Uncommon
    One thing it is not always the charging company but your funding companies rules on authorizations and reaccuring payments. Many banks where money is from you actual account not a credit account hold the money for a time on authorizations.
  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member

    They should also go ahead and do this for every single p2p mmo out there

    As every single one do this aswell

     

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
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  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by dinams

    They should also go ahead and do this for every single p2p mmo out there

    As every single one do this aswell

     

    Thank the gods it is getting to be a mercifully short list these days :).

    image
  • jonrd463jonrd463 Tacoma, WAPosts: 598Member
    I'm not that worried about the free month kerfluffle, since I piss away $15 practically every day like its chump change. I realize students and others on fixed incomes see it differently, so I can understand the concern. My problem with the game is the visibility of the login name with every character. Until ZOS fixes that huge problem, I'll be holding off on pissing my $15, along with the $60 box price, away in their direction.

    "You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous

  • ohioastroohioastro Columbus, OHPosts: 439Member Uncommon
    And then there are people like me, who think that the microtransaction / wallet check model for games has crippled the entire MMO genre and that it leads to incredibly destructive incentives for game publishers.  So I'm pulling for games like ESO to succeed because I'd like to see options available where the designers aren't pouring all of their resources into trying to convince me to buy things.
  • GravehillGravehill pickering, ONPosts: 95Member
    lol they sent a cease & desist letter...that literally doesn't mean anything. I think you guys are going a bit overboard with the implications of this - nothing has actually happened yet. The same lawyers that designed the TOS will most likely put this to rest pretty fast. Zenimax has a lot of money.
  • delta9delta9 PlymouthPosts: 343Member Common
    Originally posted by spizz

    Somone who is offering free 30 day gaming time is not allowed to hide a subscription and to force customer for payment and payment infos beforehand.  " 

     

    the fact you get 30 days free, highly indicates after those 30 days you have to pay more - if it was f2p it would say free to play - if its 30 days free then you pay more, if a customer doesnt understand that, they have no hope

    the article says "hidden subscription" err wtf anyone who thinks ESO has a hidden subscription is just dumb

     

    i was not forced to pay any extra money after i bought the game, and giving payment info to a subscription based game is to me no issue, if it is a issue to people to give payment info to a pay to play game then they should go play a f2p instead

     

    some people just like to cause trouble and hope to get noticed, fame or money out of it

     

    totally ridiculous and i hope zenimax just ignore this madness

     

    I think that site is like a German version of UKs Watchdog - basically no power and where plenty of what they state is a issue is either made up, skewed or just plain wrong

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by spizz

    The german Federal Association for Consumer Protection (VZBV) did admonish ESO due to their subscription practice and the whole case is currently on their front page.

    "The hint about the free 30 day gaming time before the purchase is misleading. Consumer which do the purchase agreement are in the believe to use the free 30 day gaming time at start of the game. Therfore ESO got encouraged to stop promotion in this form and to give a cease and desist declaration enforced by penalty until the 24th of April 2014.

    Somone who is offering free 30 day gaming time is not allowed to hide a subscription and to force customer for payment and payment infos beforehand.  "

     

    http://www.surfer-haben-rechte.de/cps/rde/xchg/digitalrechte/hs.xsl/75_3092.htm (just google translate it)

     

    Every single MMO I have ever played before that had a subscription required that I put my CC info in prior to being able to play.  I don't see what all the fuss is about. I checked my account and I have received 30 days free time with my purchase and I have not had to pay any subscription fee yet.  So yeah, why does anyone care about this?

    Steam: Neph

  • BinafusBinafus Eastland, TXPosts: 220Member Common

    ESO TOS says you have to cancel 30 days before your sub runs out, so for those of you who wanted your free 30 days you will end up paying for a month if they do not change their policy.

    I never put my information in because I refuse to pay more money to get my FREE 30 days that came with the game.

    I wish I would have canceled my pre order but thought I would go ahead and play for 30 days just to mess around in the game but can no even do that.

    Those of you who keep defending this crap quit being such fanboys.

     

     

  • eric_w66eric_w66 North Richland Hills, TXPosts: 1,006Member Uncommon

    I work in the credit card payments industry and what ESO does is very standard.

    Problem in Europe, is even with the vast regulatory bodies they have, they are behind in some facets of payment processing, even when they are ahead in things like EMV (Chip & PIN). Most European banks do not allow "AVS" (Address Verification) checks. These AVS checks are zero amount authorizations which are meant to check if the card is valid.

    BTW, except in some corner cases, merchants are not allowed to charge your card ahead of the "delivery of goods". Shipment of the boxed copies of this game are an example: They cannot charge you for the full amount of the box when you preorder, only when it leaves their hands can they charge (some companies might charge you $5 or so for the "beta key" access etc). Same thing with subscriptions. While they can make you enter in valid payment information when you sign up, they cannot actually hit your card with the sub fee until you actually start your sub period. There are some exceptions to this, but in general, that's the rules.

  • MyriaMyria Lowell, MAPosts: 570Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dinams

    They should also go ahead and do this for every single p2p mmo out there

    As every single one do this aswell

     

    Except... They don't.

     

    Just bought FFXIV ARR a few weeks ago, playing my free month without entering any CC data just fine.

     

    Even if "Everyone does it" was a valid legal defense (hint: It isn't), everyone doesn't do it. In fact it hasn't been the norm for quite a long time (probably in part because of the laws being cited here), if it ever really was, and certainly fuck ups on the level of Zeni's (Thread about this on their customer service forum is 77 pages and still growing, but I'm sure those are all "haters", right?) certainly haven't been.

  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by dinams

    They should also go ahead and do this for every single p2p mmo out there

    As every single one do this aswell

     

    Except... They don't.

     

    Just bought FFXIV ARR a few weeks ago, playing my free month without entering any CC data just fine.

     

    Even if "Everyone does it" was a valid legal defense (hint: It isn't), everyone doesn't do it. In fact it hasn't been the norm for quite a long time (probably in part because of the laws being cited here), if it ever really was, and certainly fuck ups on the level of Zeni's (Thread about this on their customer service forum is 77 pages and still growing, but I'm sure those are all "haters", right?) certainly haven't been.

    Hey! Stop that "Making sense" nonsense right now! We don't take kindly to that kinda talk around here!

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  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Originally posted by Myria
    Originally posted by dinams

    They should also go ahead and do this for every single p2p mmo out there

    As every single one do this aswell

     

    Except... They don't.

     

    Just bought FFXIV ARR a few weeks ago, playing my free month without entering any CC data just fine.

     

    Even if "Everyone does it" was a valid legal defense (hint: It isn't), everyone doesn't do it. In fact it hasn't been the norm for quite a long time (probably in part because of the laws being cited here), if it ever really was, and certainly fuck ups on the level of Zeni's (Thread about this on their customer service forum is 77 pages and still growing, but I'm sure those are all "haters", right?) certainly haven't been.

    Hey! Stop that "Making sense" nonsense right now! We don't take kindly to that kinda talk around here!

    It only makes sense if we actually wanna get another thread locked "by going there yet again".,..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member

    The case is even published in the leading and biggest news magazine "Spiegel" aswell on other online news.

    The issue is probably that you get forced buying a subscription to get your 30 days,  which can be only canceled within 30 days.

    I was searching a bit about more cases and this association did succeed with a decleration to cease and desist/lawsiut even against google, facebook, apple, VALVE, Blizzard Entertainment, Myspace, and a lot more ...

    Ther reputation got probably some damage already with this.

     

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This discussion has been closed.