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So, I tried ESO AvA yesterday

MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member Uncommon

Normally I love PvP - That is why I buy MMOs.

 

I tried Cyrodiil yesterday, and my jaw dropped. However, I actually find it quite hard, in big crowded areas, to actually target your enemies (Nightblade with bow). Am I doing something wrong?

 

Maybe you just need to get used to this style. I have no problems at all in PvE, but in a crowded area between allies and foes, it is actually pretty hard to know if you hit or miss if you are ranged.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

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Comments

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Was the same for most I think. Once your eyes adjust you will be surprised at how crisp target selection can be.
  • MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member Uncommon

    It also does feel pretty slow to shoot with your bow, recharge on sending an arrow is huge.

     

    But how do you learn the target system? It feels different in PvP than in PvE... It is easy to see which mob you shoot at, but when theres a crowd of people it can be hard to see if you are hitting a friend or foe.

    Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
    MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
    KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Use tab to highlight the one you want.
  • bobfishbobfish SouthamptonPosts: 1,688Member
    As above, use tab to target the one you want to help track it in crowds, you still need to aim at it, but should make things a little easier. As for bow attacks being slow, you can fire off light attacks by just pressing the button or hold to charge up a heavy attack. It is one of the faster weapons though.
  • MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member Uncommon
    Ah thanks I did not know about the tabbing, will try that when I get home from work :)

    Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
    MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
    KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  • MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member Uncommon
    Well that reply wasn't necessary now was it?

    Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
    MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
    KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  • movindudemovindude santa barbara, CAPosts: 122Member
          Game is Bad? I have a hard time going to bed before 2am with this game. Its a blast and been a long time since I really liked a game this much. EQ1 was a long time ago. ESO keeps  getting more crowded every day. you can tell by the crowds inside the banks.
  • orionblackorionblack Wichita Falls, TXPosts: 474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by movindude
          Game is Bad? I have a hard time going to bed before 2am with this game. Its a blast and been a long time since I really liked a game this much. EQ1 was a long time ago. ESO keeps  getting more crowded every day. you can tell by the crowds inside the banks.

    Heh..I thought it felt a bit more crowded, thought it wa just me.

  • SmoeySmoey CambridgePosts: 572Member Uncommon
    When you're defending a keep against a massive attack force that is when PvP shines if you have the right raid leaders. Flank FLANK!

    (\ /) ?
    ( . .)
    c('')('')

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,659Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by orionblack
    Originally posted by movindude
          Game is Bad? I have a hard time going to bed before 2am with this game. Its a blast and been a long time since I really liked a game this much. EQ1 was a long time ago. ESO keeps  getting more crowded every day. you can tell by the crowds inside the banks.

    Heh..I thought it felt a bit more crowded, thought it wa just me.

    Been noticing this too. Im working on alts to keep pace with my brother (less time to play than me) as well as try out different builds and seems like each time I go back through an area I already cleared on a previous character there are more people around than before.

    For example the Storm Atronach portion of the quest chain in Mistral. My 1st time going through the mines to get to the end I was solo the entire way. 2nd character I wound up coming across a few other people. Did it for the 3rd time today and could hardly find anything to fight and devices kept getting deactivated before I could get to them because there were a bunch of people around.

  • SmarnyPeteSmarnyPete Dallas, TXPosts: 69Member

    It takes a few RvR sessions to get adjusted to tab targeting and how to stick on that target and watching your health. You'll get used to it. Zerging is fun, but once you get into that 5-8 man with voice app hit and run group while 2-3 large groups are fighting Cyrodill really shines.

    When zerging and not sure if you'll get heals I would suggest bring some health potions to pop when you see your health going south. Unless you have guildies in the zerg with you don't plan on getting a rez. Soul gems cost money and most save them for buddies and guildies.

  • venatsvenats Norristown, PAPosts: 106Member

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.

    And GW2's psuedo RvR was really poorly designed and had a ton of flaws for long term fun. TESO seems to have avoided most of those design mistakes.

     

    If you want to do GvG, all you have to do is agree to meet someplace and fight it out.

  • venatsvenats Norristown, PAPosts: 106Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.

    And GW2's psuedo RvR was really poorly designed and had a ton of flaws for long term fun. TESO seems to have avoided most of those design mistakes.

     

    If you want to do GvG, all you have to do is agree to meet someplace and fight it out.

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.

    Whatever the flaws and merits of GW2's WvW were, they at least knew how to make and put hotspot objectives for small groups on the map and make them quintisential to the gameplay. There is no supply game to be had in ESO and that, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the design. The flaws that ultimately cut down WvW for many are all just as prevalent here.

    For GvGing, we'll definitely not be playing this game. The big name EU, and probably NA too, guilds for GvG are still in GW2 and that's probably where we're going to be keeping to our GvGing, the game is free so nothing really stops us. The combat mechanics in ESO are just too shallow as well as unresponsive for organized, competitive deathmatches.

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by venats
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.<--SNIP-->

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.<--SNIP-->

    Agree 100%.  AvA was supposedly designed by the guys who did RvR for DAOC... but it sure doesn't look like it.  AvA in TESO is uninspired at best.  Zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... rinse and repeat.

    Not for me...

    I tried a lower populated campaign with one of my alts and it was a continual "Where is everyone?"  <--crickets-->

    They need to eliminate 80% of the available campaigns and then reduce the size of the zone to about half of what it is.

  • ohioastroohioastro Columbus, OHPosts: 439Member Uncommon

    A MMO design is always under revision, and I can easily see adjustments emphasizing more small scale action.  "Cut the map size in half" is not a serious design suggestion.  The scale itself is the draw for a lot of folks, including me.

     

    I'd also not put a lot of weight on campaign organization and populations in the first couple of weeks after a game release.  It'll take time for the organized teams to work out how they want to approach things; and I seriously doubt that any one online poster speaks for all of them.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
    Originally posted by venats
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.<--SNIP-->

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.<--SNIP-->

    Agree 100%.  AvA was supposedly designed by the guys who did RvR for DAOC... but it sure doesn't look like it.  AvA in TESO is uninspired at best.  Zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... rinse and repeat.

    Not for me...

    It was made by ONE of the founders of Mythic, and it shows, because it is exactly like most RvR was in DAoC. If you are just slamming your face into the zerg and dying over and over again then you're the problem, that never happened to me. And the distances between fights might actually be slightly too small. As it is already if you try to sneak somewhere ffar away from the front lines, it only takes a few minutes for the enemy to redirect towards you.

    But seriously, too big? Is 30-60 seconds between fights that big a deal? There NEEDS to be distance between keeps, and it NEEDS to be hard to get around quickly, or fights would be a perpetual stalemate.

     

  • venatsvenats Norristown, PAPosts: 106Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone
    Originally posted by venats
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.<--SNIP-->

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.<--SNIP-->

    Agree 100%.  AvA was supposedly designed by the guys who did RvR for DAOC... but it sure doesn't look like it.  AvA in TESO is uninspired at best.  Zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... rinse and repeat.

    Not for me...

    It was made by ONE of the founders of Mythic, and it shows, because it is exactly like most RvR was in DAoC. If you are just slamming your face into the zerg and dying over and over again then you're the problem, that never happened to me. And the distances between fights might actually be slightly too small. As it is already if you try to sneak somewhere ffar away from the front lines, it only takes a few minutes for the enemy to redirect towards you.

    But seriously, too big? Is 30-60 seconds between fights that big a deal? There NEEDS to be distance between keeps, and it NEEDS to be hard to get around quickly, or fights would be a perpetual stalemate.

    This is Firor, man responsible for the death of DAoC that was ToA.

    I wouldn't put any weight behind his name as being a "good" thing. I get very bad vibes from Craglorn that irk back to the days of ToA's release.

  • Yoda_CloneYoda_Clone Harker Heights, TXPosts: 219Member
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    <--SNIP-->

    But seriously, too big? Is 30-60 seconds between fights that big a deal? There NEEDS to be distance between keeps, and it NEEDS to be hard to get around quickly, or fights would be a perpetual stalemate.

     

    30-60 seconds between fights?

    Who are you trying to kid?

    10-15 secs IN a fight before dying, then 5+ minutes running back from the nearest "graveyard" unless you have tons of soul stones... which I'm not going to waste in a poorly designed PvP system.

  • DEAD.lineDEAD.line LisbonPosts: 424Member
    Originally posted by venats
     

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.

    Whatever the flaws and merits of GW2's WvW were, they at least knew how to make and put hotspot objectives for small groups on the map and make them quintisential to the gameplay. There is no supply game to be had in ESO and that, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the design. The flaws that ultimately cut down WvW for many are all just as prevalent here.

    For GvGing, we'll definitely not be playing this game. The big name EU, and probably NA too, guilds for GvG are still in GW2 and that's probably where we're going to be keeping to our GvGing, the game is free so nothing really stops us. The combat mechanics in ESO are just too shallow as well as unresponsive for organized, competitive deathmatches.

    Clap Slow animated GIF

    Venats, once again you speak my mind. And if you really were part of the PTS, that only reinforces my fears.

    As to the part about supplies, i too feel that's what ESO needs to somehow get right and it might break the zergs up.

    Regarding GW2, i feel the problem is that, while there are supply camps, there's to few compared to keeps/towers. But if you're enjoying, no problem. I'll keep watching Cyrodiil to see how it goes.

  • DragimDragim Boring, KSPosts: 867Member

    I mostly quit doing AvA until I get a horse.

    It is bad enough to have to run forever to get to the fight, but without a horse, it is even worse!

    (Not to mention as soon as I get there, sometimes I die within the first 5 minutes, lol)

    But beyond the run time (And buggy forward camps which REALLY suck, not only can you not spawn at them sometimes, (no one can) but you spent 7,500 pvp points to buy it!......but yea beyond that, I think AvA rocks.

    I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.

  • raslirasli boston, MAPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by venats

    For GvGing, we'll definitely not be playing this game. The big name EU, and probably NA too, guilds for GvG are still in GW2 and that's probably where we're going to be keeping to our GvGing, the game is free so nothing really stops us. The combat mechanics in ESO are just too shallow as well as unresponsive for organized, competitive deathmatches.

     

    Can you elaborate a bit on why you think the combat mechanics in ESO are too shallow for exciting GvGs?

  • ManasongManasong CuritibaPosts: 208Member

    Originally posted by venats

    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.

    And GW2's psuedo RvR was really poorly designed and had a ton of flaws for long term fun. TESO seems to have avoided most of those design mistakes.

     

    If you want to do GvG, all you have to do is agree to meet someplace and fight it out.

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.

    Whatever the flaws and merits of GW2's WvW were, they at least knew how to make and put hotspot objectives for small groups on the map and make them quintisential to the gameplay. There is no supply game to be had in ESO and that, in my opinion, is a major flaw in the design. The flaws that ultimately cut down WvW for many are all just as prevalent here.

    For GvGing, we'll definitely not be playing this game. The big name EU, and probably NA too, guilds for GvG are still in GW2 and that's probably where we're going to be keeping to our GvGing, the game is free so nothing really stops us. The combat mechanics in ESO are just too shallow as well as unresponsive for organized, competitive deathmatches.

    There are objectives for small groups of people both on GW2 and ESO, but they are different and require lot's of coordination, having small groups roaming wasn't that important in GW2, they help, but oftenly don't make much of an impact, they serve more for attriction wars, when you need to slowly drain the supplies of your enemies. It's still too early to see how effective small group in AvA are if there's little organization going on.

    Supply game = the more people you have the more siege you can put = it's better to have a lot of people at the same spot.

    No supply game = small groups can put considerable amounts of siege, you don't need the whole map with you like in gw2 = no real need to have 50 people at the same spot since the siege cap is 20.

    Although I agree that the no supply mechanic feels really weird, but I will wait and see how it evolves.

    How are GW2 mechanics less shallow? Zerg everything, stand at the same spot and spam water fields, spam stability and just clash on each other and try to survive, I loved GW2 zerg fighting, it was a challenge and really fun, but I can see little deviation form the standard hammer train meta, ESO has a better chance on making a more deep meta, but they need to fix unresponsive combat first.

    People from GW2 might not come, but I heard on this forum of a DC alliance from people coming from eve or darkfall, so it's not like noone is interested in AvA.

    Originally posted by Yoda_Clone

    Originally posted by venats
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by venats

    RvR is fantastic for the sieges and huge zerg fights if you can stand getting killed instantly from unknown things.

    But its honestly boring if you are intent on doing anything other than sieging. Certain other side activities that my and other guilds developed will probably be carried on elsewhere as they just don't work here very well. The mechanics are a bit too shallow for GvGs as we've grown used to them, and the roaming can be a prolonged cross-country exercise routine with no returns.

    We'll see how it goes after we get bored of sieging, probably the same way GW2 went.

    If you only think the zerg fights are worthwhile then I don't think you've fully embraced whats available. Small ambushes, taking tiny objectives, RvR dungeons, roaming 8 man fights. Thats the lifeblood of RvR if you don't want to siege, and its where a lot of the fun comes from.<--SNIP-->

     

    I know what's available. I've been playing this game since PTS. Fact of the matter is that the game lacks pivotal hotspots and most objectives are a stone's throw from towers/keeps inevitably pulling you into less-than-small-scale engagements as entire zergs warp in out of nowhere before you can even flip a resource node to cut off the transit network. You're talking to me like some sort of infomercial and thinking I have no idea what I am doing.

    The majority of fun small encounters, right now, occur either entirely at random (which is nice, but too infrequent) as you walk or at PvE hotspots like shards or quest hubs, but these are very limited time offers that will quickly go the way of map completion and jumping puzzles did in WvW for GW2. They are encounter hot spots only while relevant in early game or if some event makes them relevant by force later. There is nothing wrong with the focus being on large scale combat in ESO, that's what many of us bought it for, but that's also all there really is to it that shines.<--SNIP-->

    Agree 100%.  AvA was supposedly designed by the guys who did RvR for DAOC... but it sure doesn't look like it.  AvA in TESO is uninspired at best.  Zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... die from some opponent you never even see... respawn a mile away... run back to the fight... zerg... rinse and repeat.

    Not for me...

    I tried a lower populated campaign with one of my alts and it was a continual "Where is everyone?"  <--crickets-->

    They need to eliminate 80% of the available campaigns and then reduce the size of the zone to about half of what it is.

    You are doing something wrong obviously, I always know what killed me. Example: I got caught out of position; I wasn't paying attention and a dragonknight pulled me into the enemy zerg while I had no stamina to dodge away; I stood still while people poured down oil on me; I didn't retreat when we were losing the battle; My teammates didn't CC the guy that was chasing me; I got bursted down by the three sorceres on the wall picking people off; I didn't pay attention to the enemy flank incoming. This game is made so you have to be extra careful on who you engage and how, death is quick and unforgiving, also low levels die twice (or more) as fast as a fully geared lvl50, I saw a lvl50 engage 3 guys and manage to hold off until reinforcements arrived.

    You decrease the size of the map and it makes easier for a single zerg to cover the entire map, like gw2.

  • venatsvenats Norristown, PAPosts: 106Member

    There are objectives for small groups of people both on GW2 and ESO, but they are different and require lot's of coordination, having small groups roaming wasn't that important in GW2, they help, but oftenly don't make much of an impact, they serve more for attriction wars, when you need to slowly drain the supplies of your enemies. It's still too early to see how effective small group in AvA are if there's little organization going on.

    Supply game = the more people you have the more siege you can put = it's better to have a lot of people at the same spot.

    No supply game = small groups can put considerable amounts of siege, you don't need the whole map with you like in gw2 = no real need to have 50 people at the same spot since the siege cap is 20.

    Although I agree that the no supply mechanic feels really weird, but I will wait and see how it evolves.

    How are GW2 mechanics less shallow? Zerg everything, stand at the same spot and spam water fields, spam stability and just clash on each other and try to survive, I loved GW2 zerg fighting, it was a challenge and really fun, but I can see little deviation form the standard hammer train meta, ESO has a better chance on making a more deep meta, but they need to fix unresponsive combat first.

    People from GW2 might not come, but I heard on this forum of a DC alliance from people coming from eve or darkfall, so it's not like noone is interested in AvA.

    ESOs "small" objectives are all within spitting distance of a tower or a keep. Yes, they require coordination between groups to take down such that you shut down the transit network but, ultimately, it requires a sizable force to do this and subsequently that sizable force has to converge to take the keep. In the interim, you cannot do much of anything as a small force to usher in delays. You cannot:

    1. Drain supplies.
    2. Kill supply carries to prevent the growth of supplies and upgrades.
    3. Deal supply damage.
    Even encroaching on a depot, farm, or mine will usually have you hammered by a reactionary force because its so close to a structure of interest. This is particularly true with keeps where people are spawning unless you've managed to shut off the network. More, because of the way that currently bugged-out spawn camps work, your enemies can have temporary transit networks pre-set in their own keeps and towers, making an attempt to shut down and fight off these people border on the lines of irrelevance. The more organized forces become, the more difficult "ninja" tactics become. The "meatiness" of the walls and gates in ESO is also very detrimental to small forces.
     
    Bottom line: the system is too automatic and pre-baked warping capabilities are detrimental.
     
    The rest of what you said is missing the forest for the trees. Supply game does mean more people, more siege. The same is true in ESO: more people, more siege, more siege being used. Siege that is, mind you, completely free and instantly replaceable, preventing smaller forces from ever denying larger forces supply or the ability to build siege. They need simply  place it, the more people they have the more siege they will place and use concurrently, and once that cap is reached, the more people they have able to guard that siege while it does its thing. Counter siege/sieging becomes an endeavour in total pointlessness and renders scouts helpless to do more than call for help when an enemy arrives. The supply game allows small groups to completely ruin supply chains or siege deployments, you can do neither here and small groups' value, as even the developers of this game have said, boils down to becoming gank squads. Both systems are #s win, the issue here is that ESO has a flawed design on supply and siege aspects. GW2 had a flawed design in map sizes and objective allocations.
     
    Both games have a siege cap, GW2 is actually considerably smaller than 20 for a given area.
     
    I didn't say no one was interested in AvA. I was talking about GvG. GvG =/= AvA. It is a subset of activities that some people like to partake in. Aside from the horrible unresponsiveness + bugginess of the combat, the other issues are simply about the fact that the skills lack any sense of depth, originality, or variety. You described zerg-meta, I was talking about GvG. Two different things. Maybe ESO will surprise me in the future but probably not.
     
    ESO already has a meta, they are called DKs.
     
    TL;DR: Everything in this game is designed for BIG battles. That's what it was selling and that's what it sold. I am not cross about this because this is why I bought the game. I am not blind to realize, though, that the game is very crippled for anything less than that because of a number of factors that were designed such that the BIG battles were all the more EPIC in scope. Will it pay off in the long run? I don't know. It honestly has a slew of other issues to cover before that even becomes a relevant question.
     
    You need not wonder if a man bleeding out on the sidewalk has food for dinner.
  • MardyMardy hollywood, CAPosts: 2,213Member

    GvG can work, as a single roaming gank group can be more effective in this game than say...GW2 where you are limited to 5 target aoe's and cc.  This is why GvG will never work in GW2 unless Anet changes their targeting limits.  In GW2 at the moment, the larger the blob, the more coverage you have in all timezones, the more chances you'll have at winning.  There is nothing else that matters.  

     

    Here however, due to the size of the map, I can see smaller groups being more effective.  Already smaller groups are able to split off away from the zerg to take supply camps & start on keeps.  Here is where size matters, because there's nowhere in any of GW2's boardlands that a blob can't get to before a reinforced tower/keep is taken down.  Where as here, if you cut off the teleport spots by taking supply bases, you can effectively take something before the zerg gets to you.  So size of the map does play a part in how PvP works in this game.

     

    All Zenimax needs to do now is to add in some objective oriented goals for small groups to target.  It's doable, as they've got mass scale PvP down already.

    EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO

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