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A Game of Trolls - Season I @dungeons

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Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,544Member Uncommon

    I've never ran into this issue because I run all dungeons with my guild - we share chest loot.

    There is another issue though

    This is a bigger problem:

    Group dungeons are WAY too easy (up until level 40)

    We've done every factions dungeon without a single death (I am not joking)

    And this is with us not knowing any tactics - just going in there and running them.

    Heck even in FF14ARR there were at least tricky boss fights from 1-40.

     

     

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Flaws? In a MMO? Somebody kidnap a member of Zenimax staff, that has to stop!
  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Flaws? In a MMO? Somebody kidnap a member of Zenimax staff, that has to stop!

    More like a complete oversight. But then again that is what closed beta testing is for so certainly someone wasn't doing their job properly.

    This ain't a flaw bud.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon

    The chest looting worries me, more than once we've almost wiped because people run off and loot chests when others are fighting.  Also when i was looting a chest, and said I was, the others ran off to the boss without me, the healer.

     

    But the majority of wipes occured because people were trying to kite bosses and not standing in the big glowy circle of healing that I put down.  They probably thought it was an aoe.

     

    They need to change it to bright blue or something to make it distinct, since it looks kinda gold/red.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    This is the height of amateur hour.  Anyone who has ever ran a dungeon in an MMO would know why a system like this is bad.
  • sldropsldrop NYC, NYPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by Braindome

    I haven't been a fan of this game cause it seemed boring, this seems fun, then again I can't stand min/max'ers.

    Whining about the things this guy whines about is proof why a game like Ultima Online or Camelot will never be made again. Everyone has become entitled whiners, this guy annoys me to my very core and even though I know i'm in the minority I have no problem saying that this guy and his mentality are part of the overall problem and why MMO's are "boring".

    Risk and reward are probably not in this guys vocabulary, he wants everything and he wants it now, simple as that.

    I think the whole thing just went over your head because this video had nothing to do with 'i want it all and i want it now'.

    I like how you jump on OP but had nothing to say about the guy who instead of helping his team was  just running to chests and looting stuff. 

    You sir blow my mind.

    I think he got it pretty right though. The guy in the video started by talking about how there's no certainty of loot from bosses, wants certainty of loot via sharing chests and thinks that giving one person the ability to remove anyone he wants instantly from a dungeon is worth it just so he can get his fair share of chests. He was an idiot, and Brain is right to call him out as such.

    Certainty of loot means every boss drops loot and then you need or greed. He isn't talking about certanity in loot as in ' make boss drop an item which i need'.

    You guys are mis interpreting what he is saying. All he wants is need and greed loots to be added and make sure that just not one person go around looting chests while rest of the team is fighting.

    I understand what he's saying pretty well. He has a problem with someone trolling in one way and thinks the solution is giving party leader the power to troll on a much grander scale. No fucking thank you.

    What?

    how is it trolling for kicking somebody not helping? did u not see the video? the guy wasnt even fighting mob or helping at all...all he did is running around looting chest...

    are u saying u wont kick him? IF he was in your group?

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon

    I don't think it's that cut and dry. I mean on one hand, people are always complaining that everything is given to gamers on a silver platter these days. ESO isn't doing that and people immediately start to complain about it. 

     

    I don't think that loot tables need to change at all. I also don't think that the structure needs to change. I would much rather see some sort of innovation to handle this sort of behavior. Why not implement a reputation system that would make it more difficult for these types of people to find a group? People can rate their experience with that player and that might be a -5 to +5 rating. Then you can at least see whether or not these people are the type that you'd like to run a dungeon with. It takes more time to vett group members, but how the hell does anyone expect an actual AAA sandbox game to EVER be made if each time that a dev deviates from strict themepark standards, everyone screams and yells like it's the end of the world? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but these are aspects that people want (supposedly). 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • sketocafesketocafe StoupaPosts: 801Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sldrop
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by Braindome

    I haven't been a fan of this game cause it seemed boring, this seems fun, then again I can't stand min/max'ers.

    Whining about the things this guy whines about is proof why a game like Ultima Online or Camelot will never be made again. Everyone has become entitled whiners, this guy annoys me to my very core and even though I know i'm in the minority I have no problem saying that this guy and his mentality are part of the overall problem and why MMO's are "boring".

    Risk and reward are probably not in this guys vocabulary, he wants everything and he wants it now, simple as that.

    I think the whole thing just went over your head because this video had nothing to do with 'i want it all and i want it now'.

    I like how you jump on OP but had nothing to say about the guy who instead of helping his team was  just running to chests and looting stuff. 

    You sir blow my mind.

    I think he got it pretty right though. The guy in the video started by talking about how there's no certainty of loot from bosses, wants certainty of loot via sharing chests and thinks that giving one person the ability to remove anyone he wants instantly from a dungeon is worth it just so he can get his fair share of chests. He was an idiot, and Brain is right to call him out as such.

    Certainty of loot means every boss drops loot and then you need or greed. He isn't talking about certanity in loot as in ' make boss drop an item which i need'.

    You guys are mis interpreting what he is saying. All he wants is need and greed loots to be added and make sure that just not one person go around looting chests while rest of the team is fighting.

    I understand what he's saying pretty well. He has a problem with someone trolling in one way and thinks the solution is giving party leader the power to troll on a much grander scale. No fucking thank you.

    What?

    how is it trolling for kicking somebody not helping? did u not see the video? the guy wasnt even fighting mob or helping at all...all he did is running around looting chest...

    are u saying u wont kick him? IF he was in your group?

    Who said it was trolling to kick someone not helping? I said it would allow more trolling if the party leader can just remove you from a dungeon. I'm saying that, if I was able to kick him, then any party leader can kick any party member out of dungeon at any time for any reason. I'd rather deal with idiots looting chests than deal with party leaders being able to boot me out of a dungeon because they're trolls.

  • DeVoDeVoDeVoDeVo Outhere, NCPosts: 94Member Uncommon

    How can this be?  I was told that P2P kept the immature and riff-raff out.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,295Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sldrop
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    Originally posted by Braindome

    I haven't been a fan of this game cause it seemed boring, this seems fun, then again I can't stand min/max'ers.

    Whining about the things this guy whines about is proof why a game like Ultima Online or Camelot will never be made again. Everyone has become entitled whiners, this guy annoys me to my very core and even though I know i'm in the minority I have no problem saying that this guy and his mentality are part of the overall problem and why MMO's are "boring".

    Risk and reward are probably not in this guys vocabulary, he wants everything and he wants it now, simple as that.

    I think the whole thing just went over your head because this video had nothing to do with 'i want it all and i want it now'.

    I like how you jump on OP but had nothing to say about the guy who instead of helping his team was  just running to chests and looting stuff. 

    You sir blow my mind.

    I think he got it pretty right though. The guy in the video started by talking about how there's no certainty of loot from bosses, wants certainty of loot via sharing chests and thinks that giving one person the ability to remove anyone he wants instantly from a dungeon is worth it just so he can get his fair share of chests. He was an idiot, and Brain is right to call him out as such.

    Certainty of loot means every boss drops loot and then you need or greed. He isn't talking about certanity in loot as in ' make boss drop an item which i need'.

    You guys are mis interpreting what he is saying. All he wants is need and greed loots to be added and make sure that just not one person go around looting chests while rest of the team is fighting.

    I understand what he's saying pretty well. He has a problem with someone trolling in one way and thinks the solution is giving party leader the power to troll on a much grander scale. No fucking thank you.

    What?

    how is it trolling for kicking somebody not helping? did u not see the video? the guy wasnt even fighting mob or helping at all...all he did is running around looting chest...

    are u saying u wont kick him? IF he was in your group?

    Of course he should be able to be kicked out, most games i've played have had this feature, simply because there are those kinds of people playing, and they do spoil things for others, usually through greed etc. being able to initiate a kick vote is practically a necessity these days, also have to add, that most people who are kicked out of a group for that kind of behaviour, usually end up on ignore lists so that they can never get into a group with them again, its a useful tool for getting rid of 'tools' not a bad thing imo, and the only people who usually complain about these kinds of in game features, are usually the worst offenders. image

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    The funny part here is how the youtube guy and all the commentors think it would be a good thing if kicking a party member booted them out of the instance. You think the looting guy was trolling? Give a party leader the ability to instantly remove anyone from the instance and then you'll see some trolling. No fucking thank you.

    This! They just need to fix it With Need / Greed and problem is solved!

    What I agree with tho, is that it's baffling it got out of Beta like this and made it launch! /sigh

  • AroukosAroukos AthensPosts: 571Member
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I've never ran into this issue because I run all dungeons with my guild - we share chest loot.

    There is another issue though

    This is a bigger problem:

    Group dungeons are WAY too easy (up until level 40)

    We've done every factions dungeon without a single death (I am not joking)

    And this is with us not knowing any tactics - just going in there and running them.

    Heck even in FF14ARR there were at least tricky boss fights from 1-40.

     

     

     

     

    Haven't experienced my self a dungeon, but this is something i have seen many ppl complaining for.

  • DerrosDerros Posts: 1,077Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    I don't think it's that cut and dry. I mean on one hand, people are always complaining that everything is given to gamers on a silver platter these days. ESO isn't doing that and people immediately start to complain about it. 

     

    I don't think that loot tables need to change at all. I also don't think that the structure needs to change. I would much rather see some sort of innovation to handle this sort of behavior. Why not implement a reputation system that would make it more difficult for these types of people to find a group? People can rate their experience with that player and that might be a -5 to +5 rating. Then you can at least see whether or not these people are the type that you'd like to run a dungeon with. It takes more time to vett group members, but how the hell does anyone expect an actual AAA sandbox game to EVER be made if each time that a dev deviates from strict themepark standards, everyone screams and yells like it's the end of the world? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but these are aspects that people want (supposedly). 

    The problem you run into there would be ratings trolls.  People who would give everyone a -5, and then most people wont even rate anyone, like what I saw in FF14, most people would leave without giving any commendations.  That kind of system would be very abused.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Derros
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    I don't think it's that cut and dry. I mean on one hand, people are always complaining that everything is given to gamers on a silver platter these days. ESO isn't doing that and people immediately start to complain about it. 

     

    I don't think that loot tables need to change at all. I also don't think that the structure needs to change. I would much rather see some sort of innovation to handle this sort of behavior. Why not implement a reputation system that would make it more difficult for these types of people to find a group? People can rate their experience with that player and that might be a -5 to +5 rating. Then you can at least see whether or not these people are the type that you'd like to run a dungeon with. It takes more time to vett group members, but how the hell does anyone expect an actual AAA sandbox game to EVER be made if each time that a dev deviates from strict themepark standards, everyone screams and yells like it's the end of the world? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but these are aspects that people want (supposedly). 

    The problem you run into there would be ratings trolls.  People who would give everyone a -5, and then most people wont even rate anyone, like what I saw in FF14, most people would leave without giving any commendations.  That kind of system would be very abused.

    Agreed, but if this is something that is, for instance, forced on Kick, then it is more difficult to game the results. I mean if the guy was nice and under-geared then maybe give them a +5 still. If they were a raging a-hole or ninja then just go -5. TBH I haven't played FF14 yet, so idk about that, outside the limited time I put into a beta weekend. I'll play it at some point, just not sure whether that'll be on PC or PS4. 

     

    I'm just saying that it seems like people are wanting a themepark solution to a sandbox situation. 

     

    Also, re: loot. I believe that there is a hefty amount of focus being placed on crafting in the game. I'm still muddling through crafting, myself, but I think that cranking loot tables in dungeons wide open may simply remove the focus on crafting that they really wanted to promote.  

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    It is INCONCEIVABLE to me, how a MMO launching 2014 can be so BLANTATLY ignoring everything we learned about MMOs in the last 10 years! Zenimax acts as if their MMO was the first MMo ever made! Do we learn nothing!

    This is just so laughable. They launch a MMO in 2014 with zero loot roll mechanics! Where kicked players stay in the dungeon and it even prevents the group from bringing in another person? It is so unbelievably amateurish to neglect such basic stuff in a MMO like loot roll mechanics and group handling. Not to speak of the sheer absurdity that chests vanish, once they are taken. Whoever introduced that to ESO needs to be banished from EVER making a MMO again! That's just hilariously wrong!

    And bossses often drop just white trash? WTF? What incentive are you having, if a difficult boss just drops trash?

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • NeherunNeherun St. MichelPosts: 278Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    It is INCONCEIVABLE to me, how a MMO launching 2014 can be so BLANTATLY ignoring everything we learned about MMOs in the last 10 years! Zenimax acts as if their MMO was the first MMo ever made! Do we learn nothing!

    This is just so laughable. They launch a MMO in 2014 with zero loot roll mechanics! Where kicked players stay in the dungeon and it even prevents the group from bringing in another person? It is so unbelievably amateurish to neglect such basic stuff in a MMO like loot roll mechanics and group handling. Not to speak of the sheer absurdity that chests vanish, once they are taken. Whoever introduced that to ESO needs to be banished from EVER making a MMO again! That's just hilariously wrong!

    And bossses often drop just white trash? WTF? What incentive are you having, if a difficult boss just drops trash?

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

    Worlds first Molag Bal kill! 

    - What did he drop? WHAT DID HE DROP!

    Uhm... Guys, we've got two white swords, 126 gold and fishing bait.

     

    Also, chest stealing was never a problem, the problem was that developers removed the feature to bash someones brains in when they started stealing your chests contents!

     

    image

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neherun
    Originally posted by Elikal

    It is INCONCEIVABLE *snip*

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

    Worlds first Molag Bal kill! 

    - What did he drop? WHAT DID HE DROP!

    Uhm... Guys, we've got two white swords, 126 gold and fishing bait.

     

    Also, chest stealing was never a problem, the problem was that developers removed the feature to bash someones brains in when they started stealing your chests contents!

     

    Ouch. That surely pains. Sigh. Talking about risk and reward eh? Risk: world biggest baddie. Reward: fishing bait. Whoa.

    Sorry, ZOS are just horrible amateurs in the MMO field. You just can't do that to people, if you send them against THE world boss and then this.

    That's horrible.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • SolarRainSolarRain EastleighPosts: 32Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    It is INCONCEIVABLE to me, how a MMO launching 2014 can be so BLANTATLY ignoring everything we learned about MMOs in the last 10 years! Zenimax acts as if their MMO was the first MMo ever made! Do we learn nothing!

    This is just so laughable. They launch a MMO in 2014 with zero loot roll mechanics! Where kicked players stay in the dungeon and it even prevents the group from bringing in another person? It is so unbelievably amateurish to neglect such basic stuff in a MMO like loot roll mechanics and group handling. Not to speak of the sheer absurdity that chests vanish, once they are taken. Whoever introduced that to ESO needs to be banished from EVER making a MMO again! That's just hilariously wrong!

    And bossses often drop just white trash? WTF? What incentive are you having, if a difficult boss just drops trash?

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

     This.

     

    My answer to this problem would be that once the chests are unlocked by someone, each person can open it and take their own loot. Or, just get rid of chests completely and put the best loot on bosses etc where it fucking should be in the first place.

     

    I still can't for the lift of me believe this game doesn't even have a need/greed system. 

  • alexhpy98721alexhpy98721 bucharestPosts: 250Member

    Wow.... and then in another thread there are people saying this will be the best mmo hehe.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Huh, that's really awful.
  • BinafusBinafus Eastland, TXPosts: 220Member

    Everyone open their own chest, need greed settings, roll settings, name plates, a way to identify who is in your party, a better UI. 

     

    All these things were brought up in Aplhas and Betas and they said NO.

     

    People begged for these settings to be turned on and off in your own preferences they said NO.

     

    You will play our game our way or you can get people to MOD the game we will have no settings that were requested just buy our game sub to it and shut up.

     

    I paid 80 bucks for this game, who is the fool now?

     

  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,285Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal

    It is INCONCEIVABLE to me, how a MMO launching 2014 can be so BLANTATLY ignoring everything we learned about MMOs in the last 10 years! Zenimax acts as if their MMO was the first MMo ever made! Do we learn nothing!

    This is just so laughable. They launch a MMO in 2014 with zero loot roll mechanics! Where kicked players stay in the dungeon and it even prevents the group from bringing in another person? It is so unbelievably amateurish to neglect such basic stuff in a MMO like loot roll mechanics and group handling. Not to speak of the sheer absurdity that chests vanish, once they are taken. Whoever introduced that to ESO needs to be banished from EVER making a MMO again! That's just hilariously wrong!

    And bossses often drop just white trash? WTF? What incentive are you having, if a difficult boss just drops trash?

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

    hahaha so true

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Skuall
    Originally posted by Elikal

    It is INCONCEIVABLE to me, how a MMO launching 2014 can be so BLANTATLY ignoring everything we learned about MMOs in the last 10 years! Zenimax acts as if their MMO was the first MMo ever made! Do we learn nothing!

    This is just so laughable. They launch a MMO in 2014 with zero loot roll mechanics! Where kicked players stay in the dungeon and it even prevents the group from bringing in another person? It is so unbelievably amateurish to neglect such basic stuff in a MMO like loot roll mechanics and group handling. Not to speak of the sheer absurdity that chests vanish, once they are taken. Whoever introduced that to ESO needs to be banished from EVER making a MMO again! That's just hilariously wrong!

    And bossses often drop just white trash? WTF? What incentive are you having, if a difficult boss just drops trash?

    WHAT THE FUCK?

     

    I still don't understand how such a system could get through any QA. ZoS developed the game in complete ignorance of every experience with previous MMOs. Chest and loot stealing... good riddance. We left behind that anti-social shit in the MMO dark ages! That certainly was NOT a feature from the past that needed ressurrection.

    hahaha so true

    Likely one of the many things they pushed off for release. I too feel it was a bad choice.

     

    But if people here haven't suggested this through official channels to ZOS then stop wasting your time here.

    You stay sassy!

  • KuanshuKuanshu Des Moines, IAPosts: 272Member

    Beta test isn't over folks...its going to be months before many issues are adequately addressed

    I remember playing Asheron's Call when it released; I was the head of a decent sized allegiance and we were in a mid level dungeon killing some tough mobs...chests were always highly sought after in asheron's call. Well to make a long story short there was this very low level chest camper/stealer who was using a broadband connection back in the day when most had dialup...needless to say he had no problem beating everyone when the chest relocked and chest loot respawned. I was called to see what the issue was and I noticed that this guy was low level and he had no business being there. So I told everyone to back off and wait for the mobs to respawn...needless to say they did and he was flattened and since he was low level his corpse was lootable in a short period....I made sure everyone shared in the spoils

    Moral of this story is; There is always a way to handle griefers...keep your wits about you at all times

    Imagine no banks; no safe trading; mob trains, kill stealers, loot ninjas in raids, etc...dealt will all of it and simply said this is the nature of MMORPGs

    Exploiters and Griefers exist and for good reasons; So they can shed light on what needs to be fixed, tweaked, modified. They could fix it so you can kick out problem players and then you could find yourself in a group where you get voted out right before the last boss and miss out on some really good loot cuz they want to invite a friend or fellow guildie.

    Careful what ask for cuz you may get exactly that...

    I can already see how the developers pushed out ESO a bit quickly because of timing and marketing strategy in relation to other big name MMORPGs being released in the near future...yet they did it in a sensible and reasonable manner by limiting group size to 4 people initially so they can tweak it over time.

    The main things you can't fix easily like engine, graphics, and lore

    All I can say is treat this as an extended beta test and provide feedback through the proper channels at all times so someday you and your friends can enjoy playing together in the evolution of something you helped create.

     

  • AroukosAroukos AthensPosts: 571Member
    Originally posted by Kuanshu

    Beta test isn't over folks...its going to be months before many issues are adequately addressed

    I remember playing Asheron's Call when it released; I was the head of a decent sized allegiance and we were in a mid level dungeon killing some tough mobs...chests were always highly sought after in asheron's call. Well to make a long story short there was this very low level chest camper/stealer who was using a broadband connection back in the day when most had dialup...needless to say he had no problem beating everyone when the chest relocked and chest loot respawned. I was called to see what the issue was and I noticed that this guy was low level and he had no business being there. So I told everyone to back off and wait for the mobs to respawn...needless to say they did and he was flattened and since he was low level his corpse was lootable in a short period....I made sure everyone shared in the spoils

    Moral of this story is; There is always a way to handle griefers...keep your wits about you at all times

    Imagine no banks; no safe trading; mob trains, kill stealers, loot ninjas in raids, etc...dealt will all of it and simply said this is the nature of MMORPGs

    Exploiters and Griefers exist and for good reasons; So they can shed light on what needs to be fixed, tweaked, modified. They could fix it so you can kick out problem players and then you could find yourself in a group where you get voted out right before the last boss and miss out on some really good loot cuz they want to invite a friend or fellow guildie.

    Careful what ask for cuz you may get exactly that...

    I can already see how the developers pushed out ESO a bit quickly because of timing and marketing strategy in relation to other big name MMORPGs being released in the near future...yet they did it in a sensible and reasonable manner by limiting group size to 4 people initially so they can tweak it over time.

    The main things you can't fix easily like engine, graphics, and lore

    All I can say is treat this as an extended beta test and provide feedback through the proper channels at all times so someday you and your friends can enjoy playing together in the evolution of something you helped create.

     

     

    And we must pay a sub for beta? C'mon...

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