Originally posted by Notimeforbs I agree with him on most of this. One thing he said is for sure - there should have been 4 or 5 EVE Online inspired MMO's by now.
Devs are not very interested in MMOs that takes forever to get to even 500k players.
Plus it has terrible pve, and the market for FFA pvp is not big.
Exploration, incursions, sleepers, hell even level 5 missions.
FFA PVP = you can attack anyone, anywhere, without consequences, EVE is not that way either due to mechanics (high-sec and to a degree low sec) or player interactions ( last time I checked a region of 0.0 space was nominally patrolled and secured against gankers, this being under CVA whom maintain KOS lists for know gankers/gank orientated corps and at least when I was in their space had some pretty good anti-gank security in the form of player organized intel channels and groups of PVP experienced people whom would form up and hunt hostiles down, was it perfect? Hells no but it was nominally safer than open 0.0, both close to empire and deep).
Despite i play and like some theme park mmo's, i m going to agree with this video. I m an EvE player also and i wish i could see more of this in other games, but unfortunately there isn't much luck about this. At least in the near future...
Originally posted by Aroukos Despite i play and like some theme park mmo's, i m going to agree with this video. I m an EvE player also and i wish i could see more of this in other games, but unfortunately there isn't much luck about this. At least in the near future...
Perpetuum Online has gone B2P and is launching on steam in 2-3 weeks so you may have one coming relatively soon if the population spikes and stabilizes high enough to get the ball rolling (which it should in the absence of sub).
As a person more interested in sandbox style mmorpg's I say YES to this!
While themepark mmorpg's have their own merits and are good I really wish there were more sandbox games. There is darkfall and... maybe some other sandbox mmorpg's but they are not nearly represented as well as themeparks.
The cause of this isn't important (yes it is WoW duh) but it's bothering a lot of players. It's annoying as hell to see so many ppl here flaming about this opinion even though it's ever more strongly expressed on these forums.
Originally posted by Shoko_Lied Originally posted by ArglebargleOriginally posted by ace5572Originally posted by vanderghastTo sum up the video:Just another sandbox whiner claiming wow ruined everything.While wow sure dumbed down the genre, games like SWG weren't anything special either as they had no content and no point. Would it be so hard for someone to make a sandbox themepark that had quests etc and also allowed freedom?
SWG had no content and no point? I don't think you know what a sandbox is.He forgot to add terribly broken at release. You like what you like, but SWG had tremendous problems and issues, regardless. I looked into playing it then, but had friends on the dev team who warned me away from it. Broken at release... Sorta like how Blizzard had to give a sh*t ton of people an extra free month because they weren't able to play the first month? Oh and how about the thousands of players who fell to their deaths while traveling via flight path. Yeah... WoW had an incredibly ugly release.
You might as well point out WoW's broken release if you're going to point out SWG's when referencing releases.
SWG is one in my top 5 video games of all time. But to say SWG and WoW were similarly broken at launch is a sad joke. There were entire game systems that were not only broken at launch, but in fact remained broken til it got shut down and turned into NGE.
I beta tested that game and up until a week before launch, you were unable to delete items out of your inventory. You know what that meant? Nobody got to test and crafting past grinding items til your inventory was full. Which meant approx 99.9% of crafting went live with zero beta testing. And it was completely fucked. Most of the people who loved swg loved it because they made the best of a broken game. And we stuck around so long because we kept thinking about how amazing this game could be. And thats why the backlash was so fierce when NGE hit because people wanted to see all that stuff fixed, not removed.
Read the forum archives, its mostly people wanting their shit fixed, for years.
So yeah WoW had a rough first couple months because of congestion and random bugs. But that game worked. In fact, that was a huge selling point when people were leaving SWG for WoW. It worked. It had content.
I dont think WoW killed the sandbox, I think sandbox mmos did a pretty good job of killing themselves off. And I think thats what the industry needed at the time. Stop making mmos that do everything poorly. Make an mmo that does a few things well and then slowly add another feature that works well and so on. That is finally what we are seeing today. Combat, questing, pvp, raids, dungeons are solid in most mmos. Now we are seeing housing making a comeback and baby steps towards territory control. We are now seeing crafting becoming more and more important.
I am confident that in the next ten years, we will be back to a feature list as rich as AC, SWG, and UO, but this time around it will all actually work and have relevance.
Its the direction the genre has been heading. Slowly but surely kicking and screaming back to the sandbox but with more refined tools. Of course thats not going to be fast enough for some people and they make dumbshit whiny ass youtube videos about the good ol days.
Disagree. WoW didn't ruin everything and EVE is really boring. SWG is also really boring but less boring than EVE. Sandboxes become just as dull and repetitive as theme parks. Loot farming is NOT fun and becomes less fun the longer you must do it and the reason why one loot farms is to... loot farm better. When a MMORPG ( Pronounced Moar-pig, why the heck would you add -er to the end?) starts feeling like a job you pay for, stop playing. Hold on honey I gotta check the harvesters! Just a couple of dailies!
Emergent game play may be good some times but more often than not it becomes a euphemism for organized griefing. Just like "clever use of game mechanics" means exploiting. Didn't that conflict in EVE end with a member of one faction disbanded their own guild and then joining the other side? Hardly a realistic way to fight a war.
He was right in one aspect, MMORPGs have not lived up to their potential, but that is because the industry is focused on making video games rather than a trying to bring a table top RPG experience to the video game genre. The MMORPG is supposed o be the eternal Dungeon Master, ready to play anytime day or night, 24/7, for soloists, small groups and large raids. When MMORPGs become that , then the promise will have been kept. Until then , it's Donkey Kong.
I played SWG at launch it was more broken than WoW ever was features were broken in game with no intention of ever being fixed.....
No mounts and it could take about an hour to walk to certain areas of the map and if you were here in the early 2000s this board was very different SWG was the most hated on game. While it was a triumph of Sandbox features it was a complete failure of execution the game was more like a job than playing a Star Wars game at launch....
People get flamed here for talking about Sandboxes because most say that's how we should all enjoy playing, this is the issue in the industry go back to the old days. That's where you get the hate.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 I played SWG at launch it was more broken than WoW ever was features were broken in game with no intention of ever being fixed.....
No mounts and it could take about an hour to walk to certain areas of the map and if you were here in the early 2000s this board was very different SWG was the most hated on game. While it was a triumph of Sandbox features it was a complete failure of execution the game was more like a job than playing a Star Wars game at launch....
I think a lot of the fond memories we have of SWG is due to the amazing social interaction that game had. There has never been anything like it since. Just the fact that everything of significance had to be gained from other players, or mastering your class tree required you to "learn" from another player. The totally player-run and player dependant economy, with items that would eventually break (permanent durability loss). Things like this just made the community more tightknit than other games
I think this is variation of how the UO old school players feel about permanent death. Because those players experienced the thrill, the drama, the anguish of permanent character death, they long for this returning feature hoping that if a game brought this back, it would bring back some of that old excitement they felt then.
For me personally, Star Wars Galaxies was much more than a game. As a game it was a failure. Broken classes, no actual designated content besides randomly generated mission portals, poor use of star wars licens (little actual star wars music). The PvP was a joke, some combat classes had half their skills not even working. It really was insane how off the rails this game was in terms of these things.
But at the same time, it's exactly why this game was so amazing, because all the other things about it brought it up to become more than the sum of it's parts. Just the fact that the combat focus only counted for around 1/3 of the actual classes, it felt like the majority of the people were playing different games entirely. Playing as a Creature Handler was vastly different than playing as a Chef. You could play the game for years and then restart and become a Bio-Engineer and it literally felt like a new game because the game was so many things.
Of course we also have heavily rose-tinted glasses. Their self-sabotage started with the holocron grind. They literally enforced afk grinding on themselves 4 months after launch. This was a massive community killer right away. Looking back at it, SWG was a mess long before NGE.
WoW did not ruin everything, it created a brand, a template which became the only way to make MMOs. FPS's have a more varied template than MMO's do, that shows you how hidebound the MMO format is.
Comments
true
Everyone tries to be a michael jordan.
The problem is that in order to be MJ you gotta be MJ him self.
nough said
Exploration, incursions, sleepers, hell even level 5 missions.
FFA PVP = you can attack anyone, anywhere, without consequences, EVE is not that way either due to mechanics (high-sec and to a degree low sec) or player interactions ( last time I checked a region of 0.0 space was nominally patrolled and secured against gankers, this being under CVA whom maintain KOS lists for know gankers/gank orientated corps and at least when I was in their space had some pretty good anti-gank security in the form of player organized intel channels and groups of PVP experienced people whom would form up and hunt hostiles down, was it perfect? Hells no but it was nominally safer than open 0.0, both close to empire and deep).
Perpetuum Online has gone B2P and is launching on steam in 2-3 weeks so you may have one coming relatively soon if the population spikes and stabilizes high enough to get the ball rolling (which it should in the absence of sub).
As a person more interested in sandbox style mmorpg's I say YES to this!
While themepark mmorpg's have their own merits and are good I really wish there were more sandbox games. There is darkfall and... maybe some other sandbox mmorpg's but they are not nearly represented as well as themeparks.
The cause of this isn't important (yes it is WoW duh) but it's bothering a lot of players. It's annoying as hell to see so many ppl here flaming about this opinion even though it's ever more strongly expressed on these forums.
He forgot to add terribly broken at release. You like what you like, but SWG had tremendous problems and issues, regardless. I looked into playing it then, but had friends on the dev team who warned me away from it.
Broken at release... Sorta like how Blizzard had to give a sh*t ton of people an extra free month because they weren't able to play the first month? Oh and how about the thousands of players who fell to their deaths while traveling via flight path. Yeah... WoW had an incredibly ugly release.
You might as well point out WoW's broken release if you're going to point out SWG's when referencing releases.
SWG is one in my top 5 video games of all time. But to say SWG and WoW were similarly broken at launch is a sad joke. There were entire game systems that were not only broken at launch, but in fact remained broken til it got shut down and turned into NGE.
I beta tested that game and up until a week before launch, you were unable to delete items out of your inventory. You know what that meant? Nobody got to test and crafting past grinding items til your inventory was full. Which meant approx 99.9% of crafting went live with zero beta testing. And it was completely fucked. Most of the people who loved swg loved it because they made the best of a broken game. And we stuck around so long because we kept thinking about how amazing this game could be. And thats why the backlash was so fierce when NGE hit because people wanted to see all that stuff fixed, not removed.
Read the forum archives, its mostly people wanting their shit fixed, for years.
So yeah WoW had a rough first couple months because of congestion and random bugs. But that game worked. In fact, that was a huge selling point when people were leaving SWG for WoW. It worked. It had content.
I dont think WoW killed the sandbox, I think sandbox mmos did a pretty good job of killing themselves off. And I think thats what the industry needed at the time. Stop making mmos that do everything poorly. Make an mmo that does a few things well and then slowly add another feature that works well and so on. That is finally what we are seeing today. Combat, questing, pvp, raids, dungeons are solid in most mmos. Now we are seeing housing making a comeback and baby steps towards territory control. We are now seeing crafting becoming more and more important.
I am confident that in the next ten years, we will be back to a feature list as rich as AC, SWG, and UO, but this time around it will all actually work and have relevance.
Its the direction the genre has been heading. Slowly but surely kicking and screaming back to the sandbox but with more refined tools. Of course thats not going to be fast enough for some people and they make dumbshit whiny ass youtube videos about the good ol days.
Hey Plinkett called he wants his schtick back!
Disagree. WoW didn't ruin everything and EVE is really boring. SWG is also really boring but less boring than EVE. Sandboxes become just as dull and repetitive as theme parks. Loot farming is NOT fun and becomes less fun the longer you must do it and the reason why one loot farms is to... loot farm better. When a MMORPG ( Pronounced Moar-pig, why the heck would you add -er to the end?) starts feeling like a job you pay for, stop playing. Hold on honey I gotta check the harvesters! Just a couple of dailies!
Emergent game play may be good some times but more often than not it becomes a euphemism for organized griefing. Just like "clever use of game mechanics" means exploiting. Didn't that conflict in EVE end with a member of one faction disbanded their own guild and then joining the other side? Hardly a realistic way to fight a war.
He was right in one aspect, MMORPGs have not lived up to their potential, but that is because the industry is focused on making video games rather than a trying to bring a table top RPG experience to the video game genre. The MMORPG is supposed o be the eternal Dungeon Master, ready to play anytime day or night, 24/7, for soloists, small groups and large raids. When MMORPGs become that , then the promise will have been kept. Until then , it's Donkey Kong.
No mounts and it could take about an hour to walk to certain areas of the map and if you were here in the early 2000s this board was very different SWG was the most hated on game. While it was a triumph of Sandbox features it was a complete failure of execution the game was more like a job than playing a Star Wars game at launch....
I think a lot of the fond memories we have of SWG is due to the amazing social interaction that game had. There has never been anything like it since. Just the fact that everything of significance had to be gained from other players, or mastering your class tree required you to "learn" from another player. The totally player-run and player dependant economy, with items that would eventually break (permanent durability loss). Things like this just made the community more tightknit than other games
I think this is variation of how the UO old school players feel about permanent death. Because those players experienced the thrill, the drama, the anguish of permanent character death, they long for this returning feature hoping that if a game brought this back, it would bring back some of that old excitement they felt then.
For me personally, Star Wars Galaxies was much more than a game. As a game it was a failure. Broken classes, no actual designated content besides randomly generated mission portals, poor use of star wars licens (little actual star wars music). The PvP was a joke, some combat classes had half their skills not even working. It really was insane how off the rails this game was in terms of these things.
But at the same time, it's exactly why this game was so amazing, because all the other things about it brought it up to become more than the sum of it's parts. Just the fact that the combat focus only counted for around 1/3 of the actual classes, it felt like the majority of the people were playing different games entirely. Playing as a Creature Handler was vastly different than playing as a Chef. You could play the game for years and then restart and become a Bio-Engineer and it literally felt like a new game because the game was so many things.
Of course we also have heavily rose-tinted glasses. Their self-sabotage started with the holocron grind. They literally enforced afk grinding on themselves 4 months after launch. This was a massive community killer right away. Looking back at it, SWG was a mess long before NGE.
Thanks for the summary.
(And as much as I am not a fan of WoW - thats a stupid theory)