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Why the hate for quests?

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,010Member Uncommon

    I enjoy questing, but tying character progression to questing is an idea that is so 2004 and I'm tired of it.

    Edit: Also, most quest based games try to "tell me a story", I don't want them to, I prefer to live in a world where the players and especially I get to make most of the stories. (see EVE)

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Lol prime example ^^ kill this/that quests are fun if you are into the story and can immerse/role play. Otherwise it is a pointless activity- flocking through the pages of the book as fast as you can and only looking at the page numbers.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,284Member Uncommon

    What I just learned is that Questing in PvE only worlds is what I hate. Simple questing in PvE only worlds, I will not do.  

     

    Questing in ESO's Cyrodiil is pretty damn epic. I can do it all day. The combination fairly tough MOBS, players, and long runs for bad play makes this questing very enjoyable, even for this quest HATER.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    Sounds like you dont in fact hate quests, you hate poorly implemented quests.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • LisaFlexy22LisaFlexy22 mesa, AZPosts: 430Member
    ESO and TSW are games that make questing fun as hell in my opinion.  TSW is and probably will always be the standard for mmo questing IMO.  Other games it's just a boring grind with nothing interesting about it at all.
  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,558Member Uncommon

    The problem is that MMO's the last ten years have been really subpar open world loot wise as well.  So saying skip the quests in WoW on through ESO (not to mention huge penalties on exp for no questing) and mob grind is not really feasible.  Not to mention the devs create these games to be run down linear corridors.  There is no far off land to run to in order to grind a monster that actually drops something unique and worthwhile.  It's a combination of poor universal loot, poor/lazy world design and heavy reliance on questing that all ties together to make mob grinding not a feasible thing to do in these linear quest hub themeparks.

     

    This desperate need to be told a story makes absolutely no sense to me as well...but that's off topic.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,869Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    The problem is that MMO's the last ten years have been really subpar open world loot wise as well.  So saying skip the quests in WoW on through ESO (not to mention huge penalties on exp for no questing) and mob grind is not really feasible.  Not to mention the devs create these games to be run down linear corridors.  There is no far off land to run to in order to grind a monster that actually drops something unique and worthwhile.  It's a combination of poor universal loot, poor/lazy world design and heavy reliance on questing that all ties together to make mob grinding not a feasible thing to do in these linear quest hub themeparks.

     

    This desperate need to be told a story makes absolutely no sense to me as well...but that's off topic.

    This

     

    I ignore quest hubs, always have.

    6 years later my original LotRO char is level 84.

     

    LotRO does it because they want to sell you the next expansion but look at sandbox games like SWG and you see people bought the expansions anyway. Everyone had Mustafar and everyone bitched, even back then at the cho-cho train direction Kashyyyk and Mustafar had taken so this isn't a 'new' complaint.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    The problem is that MMO's the last ten years have been really subpar open world loot wise as well.  So saying skip the quests in WoW on through ESO (not to mention huge penalties on exp for no questing) and mob grind is not really feasible.  Not to mention the devs create these games to be run down linear corridors.  There is no far off land to run to in order to grind a monster that actually drops something unique and worthwhile.  It's a combination of poor universal loot, poor/lazy world design and heavy reliance on questing that all ties together to make mob grinding not a feasible thing to do in these linear quest hub themeparks.

     

    This desperate need to be told a story makes absolutely no sense to me as well...but that's off topic.

    I pretty much agree with that. Outside GW2, the open world experience in MMO's is almost irrelevant. There is no real reason to be out there. None. You can get more XP, better gear in dungeons and raids, especially when you hit your level cap. The only real reason to go out in the open world is to gather stuff for crafting and some games have automated that. So you have beautifully crafted areas, with some interesting mobs and lore, all empty because there is no real reason to go to these areas. WoW is the worse example of that. Some level 90 players have never gone outside Goldshire...

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by evilastro
    Because they are no longer optional adventures, they are the primary delivery of xp. They are now being shoved down our throats and delivered in such a quantity that the quality and novelty suffers.
    I like how you put that :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,609Member Uncommon

    Nothing wrong with quests. Voice and cinematic presentation has made questing more palatable but the paragraph of text is still fine. Of course, most are too lazy to actually read them but wont admit it.


    As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
    Ok ....how?


    GW2s dynamic event system was a good alternative in theory but the implementation in GW2 is so poor that it might hinder the progress of dynamic event driven MMOs in the future.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?
    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.
    Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

    Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,841Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.
    Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

     

    Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

    Quests should be so much more than just a little story and lore that is boring to most people.  Considering how many quests are in MMOs now there is only so much you can take without wanting to click through them.  In older games you focused more on making your own story and lore while playing the game.  Now you just follow some developers boring idea of a story 1000 times over.  None of the quests actually challenge you in any way.  They are all about killing.  Yes quests don't have to involve going from point a to point b and killing always. 

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
    Ok ....how?

     

    Maybe build up a strong guild and become lord of castle after castle siege .

    Or one assassin and a warrior win again 7 man party in open PVP battle base on they skill .

    First magician who search highest level .

    Kill over 300 players in a single castle siege battle .

    First time take down sleeping dragon , i think that's nice story .

    Or lord British assassination lol , it may call a bug but that kind of story don't have in any quest .

     

    There are many personal story too , but it not well crafted as nowadays quests , still hard to forget them.

     

    You know like how 2 sword crash give birth for sparks , personal stories are the spark create base on that concept .

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,841Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iixviiiix
    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
    Ok ....how?

     

    Maybe build up a strong guild and become lord of castle after castle siege .

    Or one assassin and a warrior win again 7 man party in open PVP battle base on they skill .

    First magician who search highest level .

    Kill over 300 players in a single castle siege battle .

    First time take down sleeping dragon , i think that's nice story .

    Or lord British assassination lol , it may call a bug but that kind of story don't have in any quest .

     

    There are many personal story too , but it not well crafted as nowadays quests , still hard to forget them.

     

    You know like how 2 sword crash give birth for sparks , personal stories are the spark create base on that concept .

    I can tell you the difference between a story that just happens in game vs a story written by the devs.  The story that just happens as you are playing the game can be shared with other people.  The story written by the devs is happening almost exactly the same for everyone.  There is nothing worth sharing here.  It is just going through what everyone else is going through.

    An example might be making a long trip across the country to another town.  Some gnolls attacked you (aggroed) and you were dying quickly.  You cast your cleric temporary invincibility spell and jumped off the ledge to land safely at the bottom.  From there you proceeded to run to the zone.  Fate has been cheated once more!  Thank the gods!

    Another might be I was on a journey to one of the foulest dungeons in the land (non instanced) to get an item of great power.  As I explored the dungeon I realized it was deep an confusing (like a labyrinth).  I soon became lost and feared something nasty might be around the next corner (respawn on top of me/agro :)).  I fear the necromancer's in this place as they are foul creatures.  The last encounter I had with them didn't go well.  They cast some sort of nasty fear spell upon me and then snared/dot me with some kind of disease spell.  As luck would have it another person was camping for said item as well!  I shouted to them in the dungeon and we were able to meet up.  From there we were able to camp and defeat the foul creatures that dropped the item I so coveted.  Then we slowly worked our way out of the windy and twisted maze until sunlight once again touched our faces.

    You might not be thinking something like this in your head, but as you go and do things in the game and things happen that is a story just like in life when you go around and do things that is a story.  You don't make the story before hand.  It just happens as you go.

  • SomeHumanSomeHuman Austin, TXPosts: 350Member Uncommon
    Interesting thread.  I feel quests are not so much fun because of a few elements.  
    • Hand-holding: Walk to glowing spot on map or similar.  Don't read the dialogue.  Don't go to the town and figure out the hints or the directions by reading signs or looking at buildings or asking NPC's.  Just walk over to that glowing dot.
    • Glowing dot over quest-givers: Same as first bullet.
    • Objectives are two easily obtained: This not only affects the challenge and success felt by a single player, but it demotes group-play to a lower level of need.
    • Come back when you are level fifteen for this quest.  When I would adventure out with the eight guys in my tabletop group, we'd only realize we weren't strong enough when we got weak and ran away with our tails between our legs. On a really poorly decided venture, we'd return with a mate's body; worse, no body at times.
    I agree with what some have said about the player's making the story.  I have more solid memories of running around with my DarkFall brothers on missions or sieges that we gave ourselves.  And sometimes riding away on our warpigs with our tales between our legs being chased by an army of players.  Looking back at my list, I see a theme of quests not being elusive enough and creating enough risk to be enjoyed.

    Gaming since 1985; Online gaming since 1995; No End in Sight! My YouTube Channel:

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 836Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by iixviiiix
    Originally posted by Xiaoki


    As an alternative to questing most people respond "MMOs are supposed to be about making your own story".
    Ok ....how?

       ................................

      ...............

    You might not be thinking something like this in your head, but as you go and do things in the game and things happen that is a story just like in life when you go around and do things that is a story.  You don't make the story before hand.  It just happens as you go.

    That's how so call "your own story" created .

    Sadly nowadays game cut a lots element needed to make that kind of stories ... instanced

    The gears don't meet with other so that kind of story are no more.

     

    I believe that kind of stories are what hook players to the old old MMORPG , make them log in everyday though the games are brainless grind most time and don't have much active like nowadays MMORPGs.

    It work like "drug" .

    Maybe who come from that old day are want that "drug" too much that they can't satisfying with lighter drug like instances quests and dungeons .

     

    lol , more you research , more sinister true MMORPGs are .

  • jdizzle2k13jdizzle2k13 Exmore, VAPosts: 251Member Uncommon


    In all honesty, I don't care for quests.

    With that being said, if there is a tangible reward for doing quests (more money/better gear/better looking gear/map completion/whatever) I don't mind doing some, but I don't like doing the same ones over and over, so if I level a different character, I will try to go to different level appropriate areas than the first character.

    My most preferred method of leveling is through dungeons, pvp, or both, whichever is more fun for me in the particular game.

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  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.
    Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.

     

    Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)

    C'mon.  You're romanticizing quests quite a bit there.  "Go kill 10 deer" is a pretty standard quest and it does nothing to "get to know the world".

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,045Member Uncommon

    I don't really hate the quests in themselves but I do hate an overfull questlog. Quests just feels so grindy and unimportant when you can collect a zillion and do later.

    Large quests that you only can have a very limited of at a time is still fun and so is dynamic quests that just starts when you are around but the old EQ quest (Ok, Meridian 59 had them first) just seems boring to me nowadays.

    Another problem is that long questlines with many small steps tend to split up the population, I can't do them with my friends since we all are on different ones.

    I think that quests should be revamped so they feel more like the epic things we read about in books (throw the ring in mount Doom, defeat the dark one in the last battle, take back your throne with your 3 dragons) and not so much about cleaning the stables or killing of pests.

    Fewer but greater quests would be more fun for me at least.

    And frankly have quests been around as long as there been MMOs and while they do have improved I think there is a lot more that can be better, many people have just tired of killing 10 rats and similar.

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,986Member Uncommon

    I don't hate quests. I hate quests very devs are not even trying and just copy paste the old format.

    I love questing in ESO and TSW. So it is not the quests which are the problem but how they are presented.

  • GormogonGormogon Waukegan, ILPosts: 188Member Uncommon

    I might hate individual quests, but I love questing.

     

    I think in some ways we've seen some horrible practices proliferate, like overreliance on hubs and the elimination of context for objectives (see WildStar).  On the other hand, TSW has expanded the possibilities for what can make fun quests beyond just killing W, picking up N of X and delivering it to Y, or bringing this package/letter to Z.  Playing through MoP recently, even WoW I think has gotten pretty good at wrapping objectives in narrative (something I think WoW has usually been better at than games that tried to imitate its questing style anyway).  The questing in Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds in Pandaria is IMO among the best WoW has ever offered, insofar as the objectives themselves are buried beneath the feeling that you're there to help the characters you interact with.  GW2's dynamic events are mostly just repeatable quests without the ! and ?, but they can also be good at offering spontaneity and a chain of events that get you involved in what is happening rather than just completing objectives. 

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?

    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.

    Why is it strange? Quests are dressed up excused to kill stuff .. and the dressing up give the illusion of purpose and makes it more fun.

    All the SP games do that much better. MMO should learn from that. If you look at a game like Tomb Raider, there are essentially two types of gameplay .. kill everything in sight .. or find the movement/puzzle to get to the other side. It is so good partly because they dress up these two basic "quests" with stories, scripting and events inside and outside of gameplay.

     

    That's why it's strange.  You can kill stuff no matter what.  Why do you need the computer to tell you do it?  You don't need the computer to give you purpose either.  Make up your own purpose.

    IF that's what you want to do then have at it..

    DO you not understand the difference between Diablo and a Story based RPG though? It's two completely different focuses. While you may kill mobs on a quest, that is not the purpose of a quest, a quest has another goal, that typically ties into a greater overall arch, it's a completely different approach than here's some mobs they're essentially pinatas have at thee..

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Flyte27

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?
    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.
    Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)
    Quests should be so much more than just a little story and lore that is boring to most people.  Considering how many quests are in MMOs now there is only so much you can take without wanting to click through them.  In older games you focused more on making your own story and lore while playing the game.  Now you just follow some developers boring idea of a story 1000 times over.  None of the quests actually challenge you in any way.  They are all about killing.  Yes quests don't have to involve going from point a to point b and killing always. 
    Great points, and I agree. Quests today are so overdone and meaningless, it is boring.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by kabitoshin
    Soo.... lets go back to grinding mobs?
    Players complain about grinding mobs without any sort of instruction.  But they like if the computer tells them to grind mobs.  Very strange.
    Sorry, Dave, but I gotta kick in here. It's not the computer telling me to, but rather helping me get to know the world that my character is in better. Quests, if done well, have little stories that may have lore or other little tidbits revealed.Yes, in the most literal sense, the computer is telling players to go kill Mobs. Is there a way that computers do NOT tell a player this? It gives you rewards and XP for doing so, so if you want to reach the next level or get good gear, the computer tells players, albeit more subtly, "Go. Kill. Mobs." Quests just make it more specific :)
    C'mon.  You're romanticizing quests quite a bit there.  "Go kill 10 deer" is a pretty standard quest and it does nothing to "get to know the world".
    You're right, of course. What quests could be and what they usually are are two very different things :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,667Member Uncommon

    Quests rule bro, that's why WoW is the most successful MMO of all time and everyone, even my grandma knows about it. EQ on the other side which had went the grinding way or the high way -  failed miserably. When you say Everquest to people, they will be like "Everwhat?" And then you are like "Whatever".

    Quests = the future!

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

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