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During every new MMO Launch there always seem to be a mass of people complaining about people leveli

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  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Llandrindod WellsPosts: 364Member

    I think it has a lot to do with HOW those players get to max level so quickly, and not the fact that they've done it, that's the problem.

    In most MMOs, players that get to max level in the fastest time possible on launch are not using standard game play techniques. The mechanics they utilise are often only present because they cannot be easily accounted for until they are demonstrated. That being said, the methods used are often limited to a single method of utilising an unintended consequence of a games mechanic. That's a very important definition; we most often refer to these sorts of "extra-mechanical" methods as... exploits.

    The most recent example of this sort of method has of course been in The Elder Scrolls Online, where the first level 50 and Emperor in the game used a loophole in the levelling system that allowed an alliance of guilds to bolster a single players progression beyond the natural levelling curve. Unsurprisingly, that's how MOST players the reach cap first do it in MOST MMOs that come out. Some developers work to make this as difficult as possible, whilst others ignore it for the anomaly that it is. And it is an anomaly; after the initial release phase, no one uses that sort of method to level a character. There's no value to it post-release phase.

    At that point, it's a matter of culture. Some developers will turn to GM action to control such methods, banning entire guilds in the name of fairness. Others will label it a feet of organisation and dedication, and praise those that manage to muster the forces to make it work.

    Whether it is an exploit worth punishing or a valid way to compete for "first to cap" prestige is ultimately up to individual development studios. Personally I don't care, but I can see why some would. And in some games it does indeed devalue the levelling experience, and the sense of competition between players. The levelling curve has long been inconsequential in most games. With that in mind, first to 50 means little. But if there is ever a game where levelling means something again, and it isn't just a rush to cap, then I would probably prefer those exploiting such loopholes be treated as cheaters.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    It is not about other people leveling too fast. It is about possibility to finish the progression part of the game represented by leveling in 1-2 days regardless of your play style.

    One of the core aspects of an RPG is progression. It should be one of the major elements in this type of game. Something that is happening throughout the whole time you play the game. It definitely should not be just an activity which you get involved in for a day or two and then play fantasy counter strike in Cyrodil or whatever the zone PvP happens at is called.

    Why is the leveling part of the game even there when you can finish it in 2 days? It is absolutely useless in this form. This design makes absolutely no sense.

    "If you want slow leveling, then just level slow"

    Why would I want to level slow? I want to level effectively and efficiently. However, the game allows you to do this for 2 days. That is the problem. Not that other people level fast. The fact that the game gets labelled MMORPG, but you can play it as an RPG for 2 days.

    Getting capped should be a big deal, not something you achieve in one hardcore sitting.

    If you dont understand this, then I have no idea what sort of games you have been playing until now, Mr. Spotlight poster.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by coretex666

    Why is the leveling part of the game even there when you can finish it in 2 days?

    Hmm ... in what game you can finish leveling in 2 days? I think the fastest leveling record in WoW is like 6+ days played .. and that is playing 24/7.

    If a SP RPG game can have content for like 80 hours, I don't see why it is so bad if MMORPGs also have 80 hours of leveling content. In fact, you will be getting a steal since most MMOs are now F2P.

     

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by coretex666

    Why is the leveling part of the game even there when you can finish it in 2 days?

    Hmm ... in what game you can finish leveling in 2 days? I think the fastest leveling record in WoW is like 6+ days played .. and that is playing 24/7.

    If a SP RPG game can have content for like 80 hours, I don't see why it is so bad if MMORPGs also have 80 hours of leveling content. In fact, you will be getting a steal since most MMOs are now F2P.

     

    Arent there max level people in TESO already? When has it launched?

     

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Aroukos
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    "you leveled super fast and missed everything. haha joke's on you. Oh wait but now you're ahead of me in gear, I'm behind the curve, can't get into pugs and will need a lot of time to catch up. ITS YOUR FAULT!!!"

     

    Ahahahah nice point :)

    Imo everybody cares even if they are not admit it. They get nervous when they see ppl who start playing the same day with them, be already max lvl and start dungeons, raids, arenas, endgame pvp or whatever else a game has to offer as endgame content. 

    Ppl also hates to see others having faster gearing progression. They feel they have to catch the train in some way. They don't want to stay far behind.

    Some others think its an abuse of the in game economy, because everyone sells more expensive the mats, the items and the gear when a new game or an expansion comes out.

    Anyway i m not going to say if its right or wrong to thing that way. I m saying its in the human nature :)

    But isnt that how new players a month from now will feel. Or what about the players that didnt get into early access?

    Not everybody levels at the same pace. What about the guy that AFK most of the time. He may level slow. Should others that arent AFK also be punished because they level faster than the AFK dude?

     

    It has no effect on you.

    you just described the effect on you and concluded it has no effect on you.

     

    what...do we say to this?

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Aroukos
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    "you leveled super fast and missed everything. haha joke's on you. Oh wait but now you're ahead of me in gear, I'm behind the curve, can't get into pugs and will need a lot of time to catch up. ITS YOUR FAULT!!!"

     

    Ahahahah nice point :)

    Imo everybody cares even if they are not admit it. They get nervous when they see ppl who start playing the same day with them, be already max lvl and start dungeons, raids, arenas, endgame pvp or whatever else a game has to offer as endgame content. 

    Ppl also hates to see others having faster gearing progression. They feel they have to catch the train in some way. They don't want to stay far behind.

    Some others think its an abuse of the in game economy, because everyone sells more expensive the mats, the items and the gear when a new game or an expansion comes out.

    Anyway i m not going to say if its right or wrong to thing that way. I m saying its in the human nature :)

    But isnt that how new players a month from now will feel. Or what about the players that didnt get into early access?

    Not everybody levels at the same pace. What about the guy that AFK most of the time. He may level slow. Should others that arent AFK also be punished because they level faster than the AFK dude?

     

    It has no effect on you.

    you just described the effect on you and concluded it has no effect on you.

     

    what...do we say to this?

    Yes so tell me what these effects are than

    image

  • phumbabaphumbaba kuopioPosts: 138Member

    Ok, there are a couple things I thought I'd mention. I'll assume the pov of wanting to take my time and level slowly.

    1. Huge amounts of people rushing through has been a governing factor in game design for a long time.

    2. As mentioned, due to the design it get's harder to find friends who want to play at your pace. This also translates to group content and practically everything in end game in most games as finding a good guild you want to play with get's harder. Quite fast this begins to resemble a sort of a hierarchy that is not quite natural to the other aspects of the game, but very typical to post wow mmos.

    3. Leveling slow is actually quite hard as a) it get's boring if you overlevel, b) missing too much gear due to skipping will spring you back, which also get's boring, c) it's quite a lonely business as mentioned and the game's quality playing that way is typically lower than real SP games.

    4. The mentioned design choice is a major factor in determining how much resources are put into fluff and social aspects of games. It could be argued it reduces the games into one dimensional platform games.

    So, yes I can complain about it, if you ask about it specifically, but no I don't think it helps much to do so in any game forum and I don't remember ever doing so. At the very least, I don't think the matter reserves your condecending title and OP. Nothing personal tho and it is a good topic:) Usually large groups of people don't complain without a reason, but it is sometimes very likely that their description of the reason is not entirely adequate.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Aroukos
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    "you leveled super fast and missed everything. haha joke's on you. Oh wait but now you're ahead of me in gear, I'm behind the curve, can't get into pugs and will need a lot of time to catch up. ITS YOUR FAULT!!!"

     

    Ahahahah nice point :)

    Imo everybody cares even if they are not admit it. They get nervous when they see ppl who start playing the same day with them, be already max lvl and start dungeons, raids, arenas, endgame pvp or whatever else a game has to offer as endgame content. 

    Ppl also hates to see others having faster gearing progression. They feel they have to catch the train in some way. They don't want to stay far behind.

    Some others think its an abuse of the in game economy, because everyone sells more expensive the mats, the items and the gear when a new game or an expansion comes out.

    Anyway i m not going to say if its right or wrong to thing that way. I m saying its in the human nature :)

    But isnt that how new players a month from now will feel. Or what about the players that didnt get into early access?

     

    It has no effect on you.

    you just described the effect on you and concluded it has no effect on you.

    Yes so tell me what these effects are than

    The effects may include...Feeling hopelessly behind the curve.

    image

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    I agree with you totally OP. I don't care how fast they leveled because it has no effect on me. In fact, take that same player that got to max level first, and put him in an arena environment against the "default" player, and he will probably get his butt handed to him. A player who plays the game as it is designed will tend to have better gear, and a more thorough understanding of his character and the system in general.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • YoofaloofYoofaloof Somewhere oop North...Posts: 66Member Uncommon

    Players who rush are just annoying to me, but I figure the quicker they level up I won't have to play around them. 

    I can be in a room searching for loot, reading books, accepting quests etc and plenty of players can enter and hightail it out before they've even looked around - their loss I suppose.

    They can't know what's going on surely? Why play?

    Perhaps players who play in this style can explain to us what they get out of it - I'm curious.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Yoofaloof

    Perhaps players who play in this style can explain to us what they get out of it - I'm curious.

    Enjoy the action combat .. and progression?

    It is little difference from playing D3 adventure mode and rift ... you go do the bounty not because there is a good story of why you should do that, but because it is an excuse to do fun combat with a wide variety of mobs at different places.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Yoofaloof

    Perhaps players who play in this style can explain to us what they get out of it - I'm curious.

    Enjoy the action combat .. and progression?

    It is little difference from playing D3 adventure mode and rift ... you go do the bounty not because there is a good story of why you should do that, but because it is an excuse to do fun combat with a wide variety of mobs at different places.

    I enjoyed Diablo type combat a lot 15 years ago, but now it feels a little slow.  I've been playing Borderlands 2 and it seems to have pretty good combat.  It's similar to Dead Island.  I like being able to jump and move the camera.  I generally reserve overhead view for strategy games where you control multiple characters at the same time.  If this game came out 15 years ago I would probably be playing it as much as I did Diablo 1 and 2.  For me it is a fun game, but I can't work up the motivation to play through over and over again to get better equipment.  It's to much like endgame in modern MMOs.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I enjoyed Diablo type combat a lot 15 years ago, but now it feels a little slow.  I've been playing Borderlands 2 and it seems to have pretty good combat.  It's similar to Dead Island.  I like being able to jump and move the camera.  I generally reserve overhead view for strategy games where you control multiple characters at the same time.  If this game came out 15 years ago I would probably be playing it as much as I did Diablo 1 and 2.  For me it is a fun game, but I can't work up the motivation to play through over and over again to get better equipment.  It's to much like endgame in modern MMOs.

    I enjoyed Diablo type combat 15 years ago, and I enjoy D3 combat more time because it has been updated with so many new effects, and it is much faster than the slow fight 3 mobs max at a time MMO combat.

    I played Borderlands 1 & 2 too .. they are great games. However, for shooting mechanics, i enjoy Call of Juarez more (game-wise borderland is better because of the RPG elements). I also like stealth mechanics in both Dishonored and Deus Ex. Different types of fun though. D3 is much faster pace .. while stealth combat is more planning, and execute in a few seconds.

    And yes, i agree D3 is much like modern MMO endgame ... that is why i often say "it is close enough to MMOs to me". And it can be enjoyed 100% solo without the need for working with a group. In fact, i love it when they up the random dungeon part of the game and created the rift ... just go and do fun combat, and get rewarded ... and test your builds in between. Don't need stories, RPing, trading, or any of those things. Even crafting is about hunting the rare drop, without boggling the game down.

     

     

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I enjoyed Diablo type combat a lot 15 years ago, but now it feels a little slow.  I've been playing Borderlands 2 and it seems to have pretty good combat.  It's similar to Dead Island.  I like being able to jump and move the camera.  I generally reserve overhead view for strategy games where you control multiple characters at the same time.  If this game came out 15 years ago I would probably be playing it as much as I did Diablo 1 and 2.  For me it is a fun game, but I can't work up the motivation to play through over and over again to get better equipment.  It's to much like endgame in modern MMOs.

    I enjoyed Diablo type combat 15 years ago, and I enjoy D3 combat more time because it has been updated with so many new effects, and it is much faster than the slow fight 3 mobs max at a time MMO combat.

    I played Borderlands 1 & 2 too .. they are great games. However, for shooting mechanics, i enjoy Call of Juarez more (game-wise borderland is better because of the RPG elements). I also like stealth mechanics in both Dishonored and Deus Ex. Different types of fun though. D3 is much faster pace .. while stealth combat is more planning, and execute in a few seconds.

    And yes, i agree D3 is much like modern MMO endgame ... that is why i often say "it is close enough to MMOs to me". And it can be enjoyed 100% solo without the need for working with a group. In fact, i love it when they up the random dungeon part of the game and created the rift ... just go and do fun combat, and get rewarded ... and test your builds in between. Don't need stories, RPing, trading, or any of those things. Even crafting is about hunting the rare drop, without boggling the game down.

     

     

    I only mention Borderlands and Dead Island because they are four player (options) games with a lot of loot grinding.  Both games are far longer and have a bit more involvement in combat IMO.  I still prefer some of the games you mentioned and a few others over that loot grind style games.  I used to find it fun to an extent because I would compete with my friends or even random people running to get the loot or to kill a mob, but not so much anymore.  Such a tactic isn't valid these days anyway.  Now I generally prefer to just have a good story.  To much looting can be tedious.  Even in EQ I found the leveling a lot more satisfying then getting new loot.  Once the leveling stopped and getting lots of new spells stopped I wasn't as interested anymore.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I only mention Borderlands and Dead Island because they are four player (options) games with a lot of loot grinding.  Both games are far longer and have a bit more involvement in combat IMO.  I still prefer some of the games you mentioned and a few others over that loot grind style games.  I used to find it fun to an extent because I would compete with my friends or even random people running to get the loot or to kill a mob, but not so much anymore.  Such a tactic isn't valid these days anyway.  Now I generally prefer to just have a good story.  To much looting can be tedious.  Even in EQ I found the leveling a lot more satisfying then getting new loot.  Once the leveling stopped and getting lots of new spells stopped I wasn't as interested anymore.

    Couple of points ...

    Borderland is way shorter than D3 to many people. For me, i just finished the main story campaign and stop. For D3, if you go to diabloprogress.com .. lots of people spending upwards of hundreds (i spent 800+ myself on just my main), if not more than a thousand hours on the game ... and so D3 is much longer for many.

    I suppose you are not into combat & loot ... so you are not the target audience for Diablo & other hack-n-slash games.

    I don't think i am disagreeing with you though ... i do play other games (like dishonor and tombraider). And they are probably as much fun as D3 ... but the style is different. For those, i play until i finished it (usually a few weeks) and then i move on.

    For D3, i play till I am sick of it (like i took a hiatus after may be a year after the first release), which took a long time.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I only mention Borderlands and Dead Island because they are four player (options) games with a lot of loot grinding.  Both games are far longer and have a bit more involvement in combat IMO.  I still prefer some of the games you mentioned and a few others over that loot grind style games.  I used to find it fun to an extent because I would compete with my friends or even random people running to get the loot or to kill a mob, but not so much anymore.  Such a tactic isn't valid these days anyway.  Now I generally prefer to just have a good story.  To much looting can be tedious.  Even in EQ I found the leveling a lot more satisfying then getting new loot.  Once the leveling stopped and getting lots of new spells stopped I wasn't as interested anymore.

    Couple of points ...

    Borderland is way shorter than D3 to many people. For me, i just finished the main story campaign and stop. For D3, if you go to diabloprogress.com .. lots of people spending upwards of hundreds (i spent 800+ myself on just my main), if not more than a thousand hours on the game ... and so D3 is much longer for many.

    I suppose you are not into combat & loot ... so you are not the target audience for Diablo & other hack-n-slash games.

    I don't think i am disagreeing with you though ... i do play other games (like dishonor and tombraider). And they are probably as much fun as D3 ... but the style is different. For those, i play until i finished it (usually a few weeks) and then i move on.

    For D3, i play till I am sick of it (like i took a hiatus after may be a year after the first release), which took a long time.

    I'm talking about the actual game.  I finished Diablo 3's story in a few days that consisted of playing a couple of hours a day.  Borderlands story took me quite a bit longer and Borderlands 2's story is also taking me longer.  I don't really plan to replay either though.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
     

    I'm talking about the actual game.  I finished Diablo 3's story in a few days that consisted of playing a couple of hours a day.  Borderlands story took me quite a bit longer and Borderlands 2's story is also taking me longer.  I don't really plan to replay either though.

    That is correct. But the main gameplay of D3 is NOT the story .. it is in the infinite randomize dungeons (the adventure mode and rift).

    If you don't play the "meat" of the game, of course it is short. But i totally respect your prerogative of playing whatever part of the game that suits you .. just like i play the solo parts of MMOs.

     

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