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Did solo players destroy MMOPRG

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  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 2,014Member Common
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Just because I won't team with you if I don't feel like it, or join your guild, or be your PvP content, does not mean I ruined your MMO.  Or maybe it does?  Maybe you just can't stand it when people are free to go about having fun in a game without interacting with you?

    Are you free? And you are free to do what? To follow personal story writen by dev, to kill mobs, created by dev, to make what dev wants from you. You don't ruinned my MMO, you can't in fact, you ruined yours MMO, and what you do is to play single player RPG err it is a MMO.

     

    How does doing exactly what I most enjoy ruin my MMO for me?  Sometimes I even chat with other players or read area chat while I'm having my fun.  Once in awhile, I will group or do a dungeon.  But the key is:  Only when I feel like it.  

     

    And that, for me, is the only time it's fun to do.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by Madimorga
    Just because I won't team with you if I don't feel like it, or join your guild, or be your PvP content, does not mean I ruined your MMO.  Or maybe it does?  Maybe you just can't stand it when people are free to go about having fun in a game without interacting with you?

    Are you free? And you are free to do what? To follow personal story writen by dev, to kill mobs, created by dev, to make what dev wants from you. You don't ruinned my MMO, you can't in fact, you ruined yours MMO, and what you do is to play single player RPG err it is a MMO.

    Just because you share a game, doesn't mean you have to play it together.

    In a MMO it does. There is nothing wrong to play solo in a MMO, but not all the time. I mean multi playing shall be on first place, and single playing on second. It is about balance. In games like GW2, ESO and etc. that balance is broken. I like to play solo too, but if I can play only solo, the game is not a MMORPG.

    Of course it is still a MMORPG don't be silly.

    And how a game without Massive Multiplayer is a MMO? It is obvious, to be online is not enough. For a MMO you need open world, competition and interaction.

     

    Those games have a persistent world, competition and interactions.

     

    Then again, you are running with your own personal definition, so there's probably not much point in trying to walk down this path.

     

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone

    You want to stop anyone from having fun if they aren't having a discussion with you?  There are thousands or millions of people in these games.   Is it so threatening to you that not all of them are talking to you all the time that you want to deny them their fun in the hopes that this will make them talk to you?  Am I understanding you correctly?

    If people don't want to talk to you, have you considered the possibility that this is a problem with you, not wth the other people?  I'm not trying to be nasty about this (although I realize this probably comes across that that way), but I do think that lashing out at other people and trying to spoil their fun for not wanting to play with you is a completely upside down way of looking at your problem. 

    I aim some discussion, but it is not necessary to talk with you :)

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  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Those games have a persistent world, competition and interactions.

     

    And let say GW2 - where are persistent world, competition and reasons for interaction implemented into game? Maybe there is persistent world only, cause player actions do change nothing. ESO is almost the same.

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  • SevalaSevala K, NYPosts: 134Member
    People have solo'd in MMORPGs since they came out. Thats nothing new, even in content that wasn't meant to be solo'd. The only thing that has changed is nearly all MMOs becoming so cookie-cutter nothing matters.

    ~I am Many~

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Those games have a persistent world, competition and interactions.

     

    And let say GW2 - where are persistent world, competition and reasons for interaction implemented into game? Maybe there is persistent world only, cause player actions do change nothing. ESO is almost the same.

     

    Both games have a persistent world, they have competition, both in PvE and PvP and they have reasons for interactions, both PvE and PvP.  If nothing else players have the option of talking to the crowd of people standing next to them.  They are MMORPGs. 

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,918Member Uncommon

    Well considering that Asheron's Call (one of the "original 3") was a mostly soloable mmo, I'd say no soloers did not destroy mmorpgs.

    MMORPGs aren't destroyed as far as I can tell. They just aren't the hardcore, stupidly designed, playgrounds that a vast minority seem to want. I say the minority wants it, because if the majority had wanted that type of game they would be more prevalent.

    Honestly the worst thing to ever happen to games was forums ;)

  • OnigodOnigod Noord-HollandPosts: 688Member

    Yes cus there are so many people playing solo because THEY WANT to play solo they obviously ruined it all.

     

    logic

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by maplestone

    You want to stop anyone from having fun if they aren't having a discussion with you?  There are thousands or millions of people in these games.   Is it so threatening to you that not all of them are talking to you all the time that you want to deny them their fun in the hopes that this will make them talk to you?  Am I understanding you correctly?

    If people don't want to talk to you, have you considered the possibility that this is a problem with you, not wth the other people?  I'm not trying to be nasty about this (although I realize this probably comes across that that way), but I do think that lashing out at other people and trying to spoil their fun for not wanting to play with you is a completely upside down way of looking at your problem. 

    I aim some discussion, but it is not necessary to talk with you :)

    If you don't want to interact with me, then don't blame me for your problems.

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon

    no,game companies are ruined MMORPG games ,they making  SP action/arcade  games with MP+co-op and selling it as MMORPG's.

    Solo players  taking what companies making for their.

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by maplestone

    You want to stop anyone from having fun if they aren't having a discussion with you?  There are thousands or millions of people in these games.   Is it so threatening to you that not all of them are talking to you all the time that you want to deny them their fun in the hopes that this will make them talk to you?  Am I understanding you correctly?

    If people don't want to talk to you, have you considered the possibility that this is a problem with you, not wth the other people?  I'm not trying to be nasty about this (although I realize this probably comes across that that way), but I do think that lashing out at other people and trying to spoil their fun for not wanting to play with you is a completely upside down way of looking at your problem. 

    I aim some discussion, but it is not necessary to talk with you :)

    If you don't want to interact with me, then don't blame me for your problems.

    Do I? Oh, I understand, you are THE SOLO player. Calm down, I meant all solo players except you :)

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  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Look at games like GW2, ESO, WildStar, and so many others, they are not MMORPGs, but single player, with few multiplayer features. All they have or will have terrible community and guild system compare to Lineage 2 for example. Every one of these games finish with max level and with the end of the personal story. PvP, trading, crafting, all are meaningless. The competition is limited to some stupid pret-a-porter - see my armor is more fancy than yours! There is no AAA MMORPGs anymore, cause devs make games for solo players. Or I'm wrong?

    Yes, you are wrong. :-)

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,928Member Uncommon

    OP:

     

    To think that solo player's are destroying MMORPG's is pretty naïve.

     

    It is the developers and the investor's that are chasing after the solo player market. The fault rests with them, they are changing the genre into something that you don't like.

     

    Mo Money

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Well considering that Asheron's Call (one of the "original 3") was a mostly soloable mmo, I'd say no soloers did not destroy mmorpgs.

    MMORPGs aren't destroyed as far as I can tell. They just aren't the hardcore, stupidly designed, playgrounds that a vast minority seem to want. I say the minority wants it, because if the majority had wanted that type of game they would be more prevalent.

    Honestly the worst thing to ever happen to games was forums ;)

    What minority? Do you have any statistical information? It seems solo players in modern MMOs are the minority in fact. Even WoW has only 8 million subs, but games like WoT or LoL, without any solo content, have much more. And if we accept that GW2 or ESO are MMORPGs, so WoT is a MMORPG too. What is the difference between WoT and ESO? Only the lack of PvE solo gaming. But RPG is not about PvE, it is about role playing - different tanks require absolutely different ways of playing - and WoT is a MMO, with instanced world and role playing. So solo players are the minority :)

    My personal opinion is neither ESO, nor WoT are MMORPGs, but anyway, I don't aim to make you think like me, just give you my arguments. 

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Agent_Joseph

    no,game companies are ruined MMORPG games ,they making  SP action/arcade  games with MP+co-op and selling it as MMORPG's.

    Solo players  taking what companies making for their.

    hmm .. that is what is saving MMORPGs, or for some, making them better games. No one says MMORPGs have to keep its original meaning forever.

    All games evolve.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ikcin

     

    And let say GW2 - where are persistent world, competition and reasons for interaction implemented into game? Maybe there is persistent world only, cause player actions do change nothing. ESO is almost the same.

    Change their own progression. I agree ... there is not a lot of mechanics to force player interactions. That is perfect for people who don't want to be forced to interact with others.

    I prefer that to be optional.

     

  • SIRKRASIRKRA ItalyPosts: 60Member Common
    Easy point to point, do this do that MMORPGs, destroyed players.
  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Look at games like GW2, ESO, WildStar, and so many others, they are not MMORPGs, but single player, with few multiplayer features. All they have or will have terrible community and guild system compare to Lineage 2 for example. Every one of these games finish with max level and with the end of the personal story. PvP, trading, crafting, all are meaningless. The competition is limited to some stupid pret-a-porter - see my armor is more fancy than yours! There is no AAA MMORPGs anymore, cause devs make games for solo players. Or I'm wrong?

    You're half wrong, and you're overexaggerating.

    For one, AAA refers to production value. Not 'games that cater to me'. Most AAA productions are flashy, but somewhat watered down, because they have to be, to afford their massive production budgets.

    Secondly, I think you're looking at Lineage 2's community with rose tinted glasses. Was the game fun? Absolutelly. But the community were far from saints. However, that's all entirely different discussions, so for the sake of simplicity I'll pretend you are just focusing on the question in the title.

    Did solo players destroy MMORPG?

    Somewhat, yes. But it wasn't them alone, but rather a combination of things. There's no point trying to find one specific scapegoat. If you were to look in the mirror, you'd probably even find another part of the problem. Players in general have done a lot of harm to gaming. We continue to deny it, but the signs are there. We demand the impossible, support the same crap we condemn, and consistantly demand idiotic changes to games we'll take zero responsibility for. In our minds, it's always the devs fault.

    Another major component to the problem are the producers. They are focused on pushing the games out, and profits. Not producing quality games. I know this isn't true for all of them, but it is a generalization that's very common to see. The devs aren't perfect either, and some do make crappy games. However, the devs often get far more flak than they deserve. They're usually the ones trying to stick to the original concepts of their games. They want their games to be good. And they get made to look like A-holes when producers force changes, push out content early, or players nitpick PR statements / take things out of context, or straight up imagine dev promises that never happened.

    - So yes, we as players are a large part of the problem. Many of us have stopped appreciating quality games, and have taken to becoming back-seat game designers.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Somewhat, yes. But it wasn't them alone, but rather a combination of things. There's no point trying to find one specific scapegoat. If you were to look in the mirror, you'd probably even find another part of the problem. Players in general have done a lot of harm to gaming. We continue to deny it, but the signs are there. We demand the impossible, support the same crap we condemn, and consistantly demand idiotic changes to games we'll take zero responsibility for. In our minds, it's always the devs fault.

    - So yes, we as players are a large part of the problem. Many of us have stopped appreciating quality games, and have taken to becoming back-seat game designers.

    I don't apologize for being a consumer. Devs have no obligation to provide for me. If they do, i have no obligation not to demand what pleases me. It is a free world.

    And the market works. I don't know about you .. but i am pretty happy (or even overwhelmed) by the entertainment choices that i have. Just last night, i have to prioritize watching the blacklist with my wife, playing D3, Tomb raider, Max Payne 3, Sniper Elite, reading Das Boot, and a few other things ... (and i have not even mentioned work).

    (Blacklist & D3 won out in this case). But if the biggest problem is to choose entertainment, i am very happy to have that problem.

     

  • ikcinikcin AmberPosts: 620Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I don't apologize for being a consumer. Devs have no obligation to provide for me. If they do, i have no obligation not to demand what pleases me. It is a free world.

    And the market works. I don't know about you .. but i am pretty happy (or even overwhelmed) by the entertainment choices that i have. Just last night, i have to prioritize watching the blacklist with my wife, playing D3, Tomb raider, Max Payne 3, Sniper Elite, reading Das Boot, and a few other things ... (and i have not even mentioned work).

    (Blacklist & D3 won out in this case). But if the biggest problem is to choose entertainment, i am very happy to have that problem.

     

    I see no MMORPGs in the list :) So dev and you as consumer have obligation both. When you buy something you are supporting it. I agree you are free not to buy, but if there is a deal, so there are obligations. That is how really bad games with good advertising, may have marketing success, but this doesn't make them good games.

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  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    You are quite right ickin, don't take any notice of Nari and the other easyMMO apologists. But also don't blame the solo crowd for everything that has hit MMOs. First they changed the design to solo, then to casual and now it is getting dumbed down even more to attract people who have only played cell/mobile games like Angry Birds and Candy Crush.

    You can have a go at the solo and casual players, but at least there were gamers. The new market is to cater to people who are not gamers, I should not have to point out how awful that is going to be for us all.

    Play your MMOs now, in five years time god knows what they will look like.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ikcin
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I don't apologize for being a consumer. Devs have no obligation to provide for me. If they do, i have no obligation not to demand what pleases me. It is a free world.

    And the market works. I don't know about you .. but i am pretty happy (or even overwhelmed) by the entertainment choices that i have. Just last night, i have to prioritize watching the blacklist with my wife, playing D3, Tomb raider, Max Payne 3, Sniper Elite, reading Das Boot, and a few other things ... (and i have not even mentioned work).

    (Blacklist & D3 won out in this case). But if the biggest problem is to choose entertainment, i am very happy to have that problem.

     

    I see no MMORPGs in the list :) So dev and you as consumer have obligation both. When you buy something you are supporting it. I agree you are free not to buy, but if there is a deal, so there are obligations. That is how really bad games with good advertising, may have marketing success, but this doesn't make them good games.

     

    Of course not .. i hope you don't think i just play MMORPGs.

    I don't understand how when i buy something, i am supporting it, and have obligations .. what obligations? I use a product I buy anyway i see fit .. and if i am sick of it, i stop playing. I don't feel obligated to do anything but what i please.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    You can have a go at the solo and casual players, but at least there were gamers. The new market is to cater to people who are not gamers, I should not have to point out how awful that is going to be for us all.

     

    You worry too much. I always find entertainment that i like. Given the huge gaming market, and a lively indie scene, it is more likely that i don't have enough time for all the entertainment i want, then there is not enough.

    And so what if some market is cater to non-gamers .. if there is no games i like, i can catch up on a long list of novels, or tv shows, or at the last resort, i can always do more work (which has it own kind of fun & reward).

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    You can have a go at the solo and casual players, but at least there were gamers. The new market is to cater to people who are not gamers, I should not have to point out how awful that is going to be for us all.

     

    You worry too much. I always find entertainment that i like. Given the huge gaming market, and a lively indie scene, it is more likely that i don't have enough time for all the entertainment i want, then there is not enough.

    And so what if some market is cater to non-gamers .. if there is no games i like, i can catch up on a long list of novels, or tv shows, or at the last resort, i can always do more work (which has it own kind of fun & reward).

     

    We could potentially be looking at the disappearance of a genre, much like Adventure Games died out. They have made a come back in recent years but I would prefer there not being a ten year + gap were no decent MMOs gets made and we only have Angry Birds the MMO left to play.

    The indie scene sounds a note of hope, but I have yet to see it show it can bring truly new life to the genre and point the way forward. PoE and a couple of others, good as they are have not changed the genres direction. Gaming has always chased the market and the market they are chasing is not you or me.

    For those of you who are thinking what about TESO, Archage? We have some good things coming our way, but remember there were only two P2P/B2P MMOs released last year. Two.

    MMOs are already hard to recognise as the games that were around in the days when WoW launched. That's down to both game design and the people who play them. Remember, we are not going to be joined by Candy Crush players, we are going to be outnumbered by them. 8 million gamers playing WoW, 80 million playing Farmville. It will be them that ends up calling the shots. Just like solo players, then casual players became the majority in the past.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,833Member Uncommon
    Mispost
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