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Quests ruin the immersion of an MMORPG

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  • prowessprowess st louis, MOPosts: 164Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by KalSirian2
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by KalSirian2

    You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

    And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

     

    See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

     

    Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

    What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

    Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

     

    Having played WoW for years, I can tell you that the majority of the players are playing through the quests.  They have the option of doing nothing but dungeons, nothing but PvP or just grinding mobs, but they are playing through the quests.  That doesn't mean that quests are the reason WoW is so successful, but it does mean that quests work just fine in a multiplayer environment.

     

    Again though, your experience as an individual is not something that can be generalized to anyone but you.  I know two people who played something like 200+ hours in Skyrim, and among other things they really liked, they really like the quests.  So I have double the number of people than you've mentioned saying that the quests were a primary draw in Skyrim.  That doesn't mean they were the primary draw though.  Two people is pretty meaningless compared to the ten million people who bought the game.  More information is needed to say whether or not questing is a good fit for an ES MMORPG.  Probably the kind of information available to the ESO developers and designers.

     

    When I played WoW, I did quests because I found them to be extremely easy and they outpaced any other means of advancement by sometimes 10 fold.

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  • prowessprowess st louis, MOPosts: 164Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by prowess

    Most quests just kill the game for me...  Especially when the questing is mandatory (as is the case with ESO).  Like I'm too stupid to realize that the 4 guys standing next to me talking to the same NPC are doing the exact same quest that is my "destiny?"

    Just give me tools and get out of my way, I'll make my own quests.  Asheron's Call was fantastic in the early days..  There weren't "quests" but we fuckin quested, man.

    If there wasn't a mandatory linear story arc questline, I would be thrilled about this game..  I just can't force myself to spend hours and hours doing a questgrind..  I could, however, spend that time grinding mobs, gathering, crafting, exploring, getting into open-world PvP, getting lost, figuring things out...  I've had quite enough "go there and do this then run all the way back to me and left-click 42 times" to last me a lifetime.

    Addendum: too many games, these days, put the story focus on the world...  So you're playing a part in a play..  I wish we had a current-generation game that just allowed players to carve out their own destinies..  Asheron's Call had the best storyline ever: you've been sucked into this crazy and dangerous world.  That's it.  Now go figure it out.  When did that formula expire?

    Have u never played an Elder Scrolls game!? They are all quest based. All of them. As you point out, most games nowadays are.

    Asheron's Call was a good game. You can still play it today if you like. This game is not AC, nor should anyone think it would be. AC, inspite being a great game; is a niche game. Comparatively few gamers would support such a game these days. Sandboxes are becoming more popular, but most people NEED direction. You give them a blank slate and say "now you figure it out" and what happens? They compain that either A) There is nothing to do (whether or not that is actually true) or B) They can't understand it / figure it out on their own.

    This is why many newer sandboxes still hold on to some linear elements. Many still have a clear progression of some-kind to set players on the right track. Starbound, for example, does this with a tutorial questing system that guides players through what they can build on their way to unlocking harder planets. Eve also has something similar. While it is awesome to see a game that leaves the bulk of its content up to the player to figure out, there's a reason those games are very rare. Most gamers want to be handheld to some extent.

    It sucks, but that's the reality of it. Between the internet and nearly 2 generations of games holding our hands, people have grown used to having something (or someone) else tell them how to play a game, or what to do. Now it's expected.

     

    I played EVERY Elder Scrolls game and while I did quests, they were not quest-based.  I explored.  As soon as I made it to the open world, whichever direction they told me to go, I went the opposite way and I thrived.  FREEDOM was the biggest draw for all the ES games.  You could go through the quests in a linear way or you could just go join the mages guild..  You could just start killing guards...  Nothing was mandatory.  You could be a hunter/gatherer all your life and just craft and never do a single quest.  When I did quests in ES games, it was because they appealed to me at the moment they were available.  ESO immediately thrusts you on a questgrind and quests outpace any other means of advancement so heavily that they are mandatory if you want to be "good" at the game.  And since the regions are all broken up by level-ranges, you MUST questgrind in order to experience more content.  While I accept level-ranges as a necessary evil, look at how asheron's call did it..  There's a massive world and like 15 noob-towns with low-level mobs nearby and the further into the wilderness you traveled, the harder mobs got...  not that this would work for ESO, but locking you into a questgrind is not freedom and freedom is what made me love ES games.

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  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by prowess

    Most quests just kill the game for me... 

    Never ever heard anything more silly then this. Unless you love to play i.e. tennis on console, quests ARE the game. And Immersion. And rest.

  • prowessprowess st louis, MOPosts: 164Member
    Originally posted by daltanious
    Originally posted by prowess

    Most quests just kill the game for me... 

    Never ever heard anything more silly then this. Unless you love to play i.e. tennis on console, quests ARE the game. And Immersion. And rest.

    as brilliant of an argument you laid out, what with stating your point of view assertively and all, I disagree for all the reasons I have already expressed.

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  • HabitualFrogStompHabitualFrogStomp SydneyPosts: 281Member

    I do both, explore and quest. That's the beauty of it. Sometimes you do want the game to tell you a story. Sometimes you just want to do your own thing and get loot, kill a named, make some armor for a noob, brew some beverages, ride around the PVP in your underwear. The game is just about giving you the tools to do stuff. The only time you should feel "forced" to quest grind is if you're trying to level up as fast as possible. In which case you dont really have much interest in exploring anyways, you just want to be "rewarded" for it with exp. Im rewarded for doing stuff besides questing all the time, just not in the way that you want.

    There's no rule that says everything you're doing in game has to advance your character in some meaningful way. That's why min maxers only get hooked with stupid tiered raid grinding progression, because they feel that it does.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Distopia

    Exactly, yet it seems many cannot make a point about their own preference without trying to encompass some majority opinion behind it. No one does this, no one does that, 90% do this, so on and so forth, when all they really have to say is, "I don't like questing: here's why..".

     

     

     

    Because if you don't make a big drama queen like statement full of ridiculous claims people ignore it. Every thread here has to be all or nothing, you're either with us or against us or it will just drop off the page.

    When you make a post on these forums, you're fishing for a response. Rational and reasonable are the equivalent of dropping a bare hook in the water.

  • Sir_CroweSir_Crowe Murritea, CAPosts: 20Member
    To me if Eso's only saving grace( if it can be saved at all ) was its story but after finding out that you don't even get new story-line's when you hit 50 + for when you go to the other fractions zones that just killed it, the lvling gonna get really tedious( like the big bg map) esp if you have any alts.
  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sir_Crowe
    To me if Eso's only saving grace( if it can be saved at all ) was its story but after finding out that you don't even get new story-line's when you hit 50 + for when you go to the other fractions zones that just killed it, the lvling gonna get really tedious( like the big bg map) esp if you have any alts.

    If you have never played the other factions quests. Wouldn't they all be new to you?

     

    We will probably see new story-lines in updates or expansion. Along with new zones for story. Probably going to be in the Adventure zones as well.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon

    Then don't do quests?

    I played Rift for a while, my main did/read all quest, that toon is 36

    My second toon (30 now) did take all quest but didn't read any of them and just set out on foot to explore the lands, bound to hit a quest area anyway since I love exploring everywhere. I just stopped following the tracker. Game became allot more immersive to me that way in how I wanted to play. Instead of the game leading me how to play.

     

    ESO different story. It is already know ES games are known for their story's they tell regardless the players freedom. ESO has done a great job in my opinion to keep that essence of ES in ESO. So in ESO for me it's story actually enhances the immersions for me. The way quest are delivered give me far more meaning as to why I am doing them.

     

    Wildstar again a different story for me. Not sure if I focus much on it's quest/story reading but it's everything else the game seems to offer which could be fun to me.

     

    Repopulation. Hopefully that one game that offers me that freedom I so badly want from my MMORPG experiance. I sincerely enjoy above mentioned games, but my hart goes out to a MMORPG that atleast so far on paper and from what is known is the type of MMORPG I really like and want. Hopefully it will not dissappoint, only time will tell.

     

    You see all these games and any other game I like playing offer me all sorts of immersions. Immersion to me isn't placed in a box where it needs to have feature X to be immersive

  • carpalcarpal InHell, TXPosts: 99Member

    In the end, if the game feels like more work then fun, will quit playing.  If I feel like I am locked out of content or gear with little in my control to obtain it, then I will quit playing.  If I don't look forward to spending a few hours of my free time on a Friday night playing, then I won't.  

     

    It really as simple as that.   Its no big deal if it doesn't work out.  

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Quests are good if they actually do tell a story like The Witcher or Fallout New Vegas. The quests in those games aren't usually just an excuse to "go kill 10 bad guys" but actually part of the story and connected to each other.

     

    This is much harder to do in a multiplayer game but would still be possible and some games sort of attempt it. But basically having several large quests in the game you work on for a long time is much better for story telling than having thousands of small ones that make you feel more like a fantasy pest exterminator than a hero. 

    Something like GW2's personal story or LOTRO's epic books is the right idea I think of what a quest should be. I wish MMOs would focus on these type of quests rather than just thinly disguised grinding.

     

     

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    Quests are good if they actually do tell a story like The Witcher or Fallout New Vegas. The quests in those games aren't usually just an excuse to "go kill 10 bad guys" but actually part of the story and connected to each other.

     

    This is much harder to do in a multiplayer game but would still be possible and some games sort of attempt it. But basically having several large quests in the game you work on for a long time is much better for story telling than having thousands of small ones that make you feel more like a fantasy pest exterminator than a hero. 

    Something like GW2's personal story or LOTRO's epic books is the right idea I think of what a quest should be. I wish MMOs would focus on these type of quests rather than just thinly disguised grinding.

     

     

    There is a 5 to 6 hour main storyline per faction.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Eol-Eol- houston, TXPosts: 274Member
    saying quests break immersion in an MMO is like saying a plot breaks immersion in a novel. In fact, good quests can be the most immersive part of the entire game.

    Elladan - ESO (AD)
    Camring - SWTOR (Ebon Hawk)
    Eol & Justinian - Rift (Faeblight)
    Ceol and Duri - LotRO (Landroval)
    Kili - WoW
    Eol - Lineage 2
    Camring - SWG
    Justinian (Nimue), Camring - DAoC

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by prowess
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by KalSirian2
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by KalSirian2

    You cite Alan Wake, this is a single player game, no one here is saying that quests aren't an important part of single player games. Only that they don't fit well in a multiplayer environment, in the way the are done nowadays.

    And no one is saying that you absolutely can't have fun doing quests in current MMORPGs, only that it could be done differently, and it might work better.

     

    See, now we're getting into an opinion that someone is trying to generalize as being a generally accepted truth or a fact.  Except it's not.  Your experience is not the same experience that everyone else has.  There are over seven million people playing WoW, with quests and it seems to be working just fine.  If it was some sort of a fact or even a generally accepted truth that quests don't work in a multiplayer environment, then they wouldn't work so well in WoW.

     

    Quests are not the source of WoW's success. Every single WoW player I talked to told me the same thing : they kept playing to be with their buddies. Now THIS is the interesting part : make a world that you can enjoy with others, and you will have success.

    What I'm saying on the other hand is that mmo questing doesn't favor player/player interaction. Obviously it won't completely destroy it, but it seems worth a try to do things differently and see how it goes. Just saying "X and Y were part of Z game and Z sold" doesn't mean that X and Y were the reason of the Z's success.

    Since we're talking about TESO, do you really think that questing was a big part of the Elder Scrolls games ? To me, it wasn't. Sure you got quests, but they were just incentives to go explore dungeons. Most of the reward was from the dungeon itself. And free roaming, was always for me the biggest time sink in both Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. Questing was always completely optional.

     

    Having played WoW for years, I can tell you that the majority of the players are playing through the quests.  They have the option of doing nothing but dungeons, nothing but PvP or just grinding mobs, but they are playing through the quests.  That doesn't mean that quests are the reason WoW is so successful, but it does mean that quests work just fine in a multiplayer environment.

     

    Again though, your experience as an individual is not something that can be generalized to anyone but you.  I know two people who played something like 200+ hours in Skyrim, and among other things they really liked, they really like the quests.  So I have double the number of people than you've mentioned saying that the quests were a primary draw in Skyrim.  That doesn't mean they were the primary draw though.  Two people is pretty meaningless compared to the ten million people who bought the game.  More information is needed to say whether or not questing is a good fit for an ES MMORPG.  Probably the kind of information available to the ESO developers and designers.

     

    When I played WoW, I did quests because I found them to be extremely easy and they outpaced any other means of advancement by sometimes 10 fold.

     

    Not sure about PvP, but running dungeons is comparable and potentially faster than questing for leveling, especially if you have a group to run with.  According to people who are doing that anyway.  I wouldn't play the game if that was the only way to level. 

     

    That said, quests do not seem to be a deterent to many peoples' immersion playing WoW.  Most people seem to be OK with questing.  Quests seem to work just fine in a multiplayer environment.  They can even be the preferred method of playing in a persistent, multiplayer world.

     

    None of this makes you wrong though.  If quests break your feeling of immersion, they break your feeling of immersion.  No amount of people being immersed by quests is going to change that.  The only thing I can say is that the genre hasn't been destroyed.  It seems like the opposite is happening.  Games are being developed that will offer game play that is not questing.  If these games actually make it to production status, and don't suck, they may offer game play that you find immersive.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Charlie.CheswickCharlie.Cheswick Manhattan, NYPosts: 248Member Uncommon

    I think what would help these games is to cut down on random quests & focus on just the main quest.

    Take the main quest line & don't force the story to determine whether or not the character is a hero, let the character's in game actions determine that. Let the "story" quest be vague & let it have multiple outcomes depending on the actions of the character.

    And stop trying to convince everybody that they are the lone hero in the game world. It sets the story in direct oposition to the actual game world. Let the story add to the world. Make the world the main focus.

    Story &/or quests can be great. They just shouldn't be relied upon as the main content or driving force in some cases.

    May I have my cigarettes, please, Miss Ratched?

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