So i guess trees, rocks, water, clouds and basically anything that isn't tied to gameplay is fluff and unnecessary.
Pretty much they are fluff added at the discretion of devs. D3 has no clouds ... adding cloud will not make the game more fun.
But the point is that fluff can be added if the devs have money (like Blizz) ... but it should not if it detract from the fun. For example, a night-day cycle is horribly inconvenient if there is no fast forward button (note that SKYRIM has it).
I wouldn't want a MMO with a nite-day cycle and i have to wait 2 hours for the auctioneer to arrive. And if there is no impact on gameplay, and just turning the scene brighter or darker ... well that is fluff.
So i guess trees, rocks, water, clouds and basically anything that isn't tied to gameplay is fluff and unnecessary.
Pretty much they are fluff added at the discretion of devs. D3 has no clouds ... adding cloud will not make the game more fun.
But the point is that fluff can be added if the devs have money (like Blizz) ... but it should not if it detract from the fun. For example, a night-day cycle is horribly inconvenient if there is no fast forward button (note that SKYRIM has it).
I wouldn't want a MMO with a nite-day cycle and i have to wait 2 hours for the auctioneer to arrive. And if there is no impact on gameplay, and just turning the scene brighter or darker ... well that is fluff.
I can agree with you about certain levels of inconvenience. Having to wait until night for certain npcs, if they're important, isn't a good mechanic. It's one thing if a special event only happens at night in certain areas, as long as that event isn't mandatory for something. But trying to turn in a quest, but can't because the npc's "sleeping" is not good.
As for the part in red, i really, really hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you do realize D3 has rocks, trees and water, right? They don't make the game more fun either, so remove them.
Hell, color and sound doesn't had anything to gameplay. It's just fluff. Why do we need to have colors? Take it out. And sounds? Like music, voices, or anything at all? Unless it's part of the mechanics, which almost never is, why do we have it? Hey, creating story becomes easier. No need for voice acting, since reading is just as effective at conveying the plot. Like books.
And heads too. Why heads? Because legs are for movement, arms for holding things, but heads, in virtual game, have no purpose besides being comestic. Neither the player or the AI needs it to see or hear (which you don't need either). Off with them. Everyone should be headless.
And details on the weapons, armor, enemies, npc, buildings, all these things are fluff. Just make it a generic format and copy-paste everything. Wouldn't want the trees and walls to get in the way of players and force them to go around it, like removing player vision at night (which doesn't happen). And any sense of verticality. Make the whole world completly flat. More compless fluff out.
There we go. No point in wasting precious dev time and resources to build an interesting and immersive world. Just make a black and white, silent, video game with no personality or uniqueness, with the most bland design possible. But hey, the gameplay's still good, right?
Mods, i'm just having fun, not trolling him. Relax
So i guess trees, rocks, water, clouds and basically anything that isn't tied to gameplay is fluff and unnecessary.
Pretty much they are fluff added at the discretion of devs. D3 has no clouds ... adding cloud will not make the game more fun.
But the point is that fluff can be added if the devs have money (like Blizz) ... but it should not if it detract from the fun. For example, a night-day cycle is horribly inconvenient if there is no fast forward button (note that SKYRIM has it).
I wouldn't want a MMO with a nite-day cycle and i have to wait 2 hours for the auctioneer to arrive. And if there is no impact on gameplay, and just turning the scene brighter or darker ... well that is fluff.
I can agree with you about certain levels of inconvenience. Having to wait until night for certain npcs, if they're important, isn't a good mechanic. It's one thing if a special event only happens at night in certain areas, as long as that event isn't mandatory for something. But trying to turn in a quest, but can't because the npc's "sleeping" is not good.
As for the part in red, i really, really hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you do realize D3 has rocks, trees and water, right? They don't make the game more fun either, so remove them.
Hell, color and sound doesn't had anything to gameplay. It's just fluff. Why do we need to have colors? Take it out. And sounds? Like music, voices, or anything at all? Unless it's part of the mechanics, which almost never is, why do we have it? Hey, creating story becomes easier. No need for voice acting, since reading is just as effective at conveying the plot. Like books.
And heads too. Why heads? Because legs are for movement, arms for holding things, but heads, in virtual game, have no purpose besides being comestic. Neither the player or the AI needs it to see or hear (which you don't need either). Off with them. Everyone should be headless.
And details on the weapons, armor, enemies, npc, buildings, all these things are fluff. Just make it a generic format and copy-paste everything. Wouldn't want the trees and walls to get in the way of players and force them to go around it, like removing player vision at night (which doesn't happen). And any sense of verticality. Make the whole world completly flat. More compless fluff out.
There we go. No point in wasting precious dev time and resources to build an interesting and immersive world. Just make a black and white, silent, video game with no personality or uniqueness, with the most bland design possible. But hey, the gameplay's still good, right?
Mods, i'm just having fun, not trolling him. Relax
It may be bad design to you, but it's not to everyone. OMG I have to wait a bit for night time to come around (god forbid). There are so much more important things I could be doing right now and I have can't think of anything else to pass the time.
As for the part in red, i really, really hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you do realize D3 has rocks, trees and water, right? They don't make the game more fun either, so remove them.
i consider that part of the background graphics. If they take away all the rocks, and the environment still looks good, i probably would not care. In fact, there is no trees and grass in the dessert zone.
The point is that I am all for making the zone looks good (for example, add some rain/snow effect, i wouldn't mind) but don't do it just because and reduces the amount of fun (like waiting for NPCs to wake up, or go to bathroom).
It may be bad design to you, but it's not to everyone. OMG I have to wait a bit for night time to come around (god forbid). There are so much more important things I could be doing right now and I have can't think of anything else to pass the time.
Yes, god forbid. I don't want any waiting in an entertainment product. Sure, i can do other stuff (like watch a movie, or play another game), but why should i?
If a entertainment product is not entertaining, i go somewhere else.
And yes, it is bad design, only to me. I am very clear that it is my preference. If you don't mind being bored and alt-tab to surf the net while waiting for the night-time in a game, good for you. Just don't expect me to use such as badly (for me) designed product.
It may be bad design to you, but it's not to everyone. OMG I have to wait a bit for night time to come around (god forbid). There are so much more important things I could be doing right now and I have can't think of anything else to pass the time.
Yes, god forbid. I don't want any waiting in an entertainment product. Sure, i can do other stuff (like watch a movie, or play another game), but why should i?
If a entertainment product is not entertaining, i go somewhere else.
And yes, it is bad design, only to me. I am very clear that it is my preference. If you don't mind being bored and alt-tab to surf the net while waiting for the night-time in a game, good for you. Just don't expect me to use such as badly (for me) designed product.
It's not bad design to me. What I was suggesting is go do something else in the game. Either way the way you make it sound is like you have something so important you can't wait for a bit for an NPC to arrive. Is that bad game design or is it that you have ADD or something of that nature that is preventing you from being able to have the patience to wait for something? It's not like you have to wait all day for it to turn night. Probably 15 minutes to a half hour. You could go grind some more mobs and get some more loot since you seem to like doing that in Diablo 3.
You can have a large detailed world and the worst gameplay making the game worthless.
And SWG proved that you can have horrible worlds that were created with a random generator and end up with a great game anway, just with gameplay.
So, no. The world is not the most important thing, but it doesn't hurt to have one that is well designed.
No one is saying are gameplay is not important. A good mmorpg should have quality gameplay AND a quality world. The problem we have here is that some people think moba, and other such games like D3 are mmorpgs. They are not.
No one saying world are important for every genres but like wise claiming worlds are NOT important in any genres MMORPG in particular is asinine. That doesn't mean game play isn't important to these games.
I wish some people would stop bringing MOBA's and D3 into this as they are not mmorpgs.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
As for the part in red, i really, really hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you do realize D3 has rocks, trees and water, right? They don't make the game more fun either, so remove them.
i consider that part of the background graphics. If they take away all the rocks, and the environment still looks good, i probably would not care. In fact, there is no trees and grass in the dessert zone.
The point is that I am all for making the zone looks good (for example, add some rain/snow effect, i wouldn't mind) but don't do it just because and reduces the amount of fun (like waiting for NPCs to wake up, or go to bathroom).
Time to bust out some Nari logic...
Skyrim has a day and night cycle, it sold 20 million copies. Diablo 3 doesn't have a day and night cycle and it only sold 15 million. Therefore, the market has spoken and Skyrim is clearly what the people want. Every game should have a day and night cycle.
On a more serious note, trying to rip a single feature out of its context and discuss its individual merits by applying it to other random games is pointless.
It's like saying "basil in a terrible ingredient because it's horrible on peanut butter and jelly."
It's not bad design to me. What I was suggesting is go do something else in the game. Either way the way you make it sound is like you have something so important you can't wait for a bit for an NPC to arrive. Is that bad game design or is it that you have ADD or something of that nature that is preventing you from being able to have the patience to wait for something? It's not like you have to wait all day for it to turn night. Probably 15 minutes to a half hour. You could go grind some more mobs and get some more loot since you seem to like doing that in Diablo 3.
well .. i don't see a reason to have patience when i use entertainment products. I don't take 15 minutes intermission (unless i need a drink or bathroom) when i watch a tv show, and i don't want a 15 min intermission in games.
Now when i play games, i am not waiting for 15 min, or even 5 min. I suppose i have to wait for the game to load, but that i have no choice.
If it is not a true "wait", that there is something interesting to do, (as part of the story, you are waiting and then something fun happen), then it is ok. But from the SKYRIM model, there is really nothing happening in the middle of the night in the street in front of the vendor. Even that game has a fast-forward button. It would be horrible in a MMO without a fast forward button ... for me, of course.
You can have a large detailed world and the worst gameplay making the game worthless.
And SWG proved that you can have horrible worlds that were created with a random generator and end up with a great game anway, just with gameplay.
So, no. The world is not the most important thing, but it doesn't hurt to have one that is well designed.
No one is saying are gameplay is not important. A good moo should have quality gameplay AND a quality world. The problem we have here is that some people think moba, and other such games like D# are mmorpgs. They are not.
No one saying world are important for every genres but like wise claiming worlds are NOT important in any genres MMORPG in particular is asinine. That doesn't mean game play isn't important to these games.
The OP is stating that the world is the most important part in an MMO, he does not even mention MOBAs, he specifically mentions SWTOR as the type he doesn't like. And I also provided an example of a generic world MMO that was great, SWG. Which BTW was not a MOBA and I also never said that someone stated gameplay is not important, I SAID it was the most important thing.
World = not most important thing. My point, against that of the thread.
On a more serious note, trying to rip a single feature out of its context and discuss its individual merits by applying it to other random games is pointless.
By that logic, talking about a world (a single feature applying to random games), or daily/night cycle (single feature out of its context) is pointless.
Yeah, this topic is pretty pointless from your point of view.
It's not bad design to me. What I was suggesting is go do something else in the game. Either way the way you make it sound is like you have something so important you can't wait for a bit for an NPC to arrive. Is that bad game design or is it that you have ADD or something of that nature that is preventing you from being able to have the patience to wait for something? It's not like you have to wait all day for it to turn night. Probably 15 minutes to a half hour. You could go grind some more mobs and get some more loot since you seem to like doing that in Diablo 3.
well .. i don't see a reason to have patience when i use entertainment products. I don't take 15 minutes intermission (unless i need a drink or bathroom) when i watch a tv show, and i don't want a 15 min intermission in games.
Now when i play games, i am not waiting for 15 min, or even 5 min. I suppose i have to wait for the game to load, but that i have no choice.
If it is not a true "wait", that there is something interesting to do, (as part of the story, you are waiting and then something fun happen), then it is ok. But from the SKYRIM model, there is really nothing happening in the middle of the night in the street in front of the vendor. Even that game has a fast-forward button. It would be horrible in a MMO without a fast forward button ... for me, of course.
Heh you must really have fit when watching tv shows and a commercial comes on! Sometimes i am short on time and will play some POE but that doesn't mean I have throw patience out the window. It is a virtue you know and very very useful in life unless you want to have a heart attack early on.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
If the MMO has no world, it is dead from the get go, it stops being an MMO and just becomes an online game. SWTOR, AoC, Warhammer Online, The Elder Scrolls Online etc, they all suffer from it, there is no world. You ....
......
Give me a proper world, I want to feel attached to a world again like I was with Norrath or Azeroth... what MMO can you say that about today? None, they don't have worlds any more.
Have you ever been happy in your life? :-) I was and I'm still. For this reason I have enjoyed (and many still do) Wow, Warhammer, Swtor, ..... That "transition" of yours was between zoones were NEVER EVER able to ruin "feeling of big great world, seamless, ... etc etc".
Heh you must really have fit when watching tv shows and a commercial comes on! Sometimes i am short on time and will play some POE but that doesn't mean I have throw patience out the window. It is a virtue you know and very very useful in life unless you want to have a heart attack early on.
That is why i generally try to catch tv shows without commercial (like netflix). Obviously i have to endure it if i cannot.
Patience may be a virtue in life, but in playing video games? Playing video game itself is not a virtue from the start .... and i also don't confuse video games with real life.
(For example, i don't social in games .. you don't think i don't social in real life, do you?)
Heh you must really have fit when watching tv shows and a commercial comes on! Sometimes i am short on time and will play some POE but that doesn't mean I have throw patience out the window. It is a virtue you know and very very useful in life unless you want to have a heart attack early on.
That is why i generally try to catch tv shows without commercial (like netflix). Obviously i have to endure it if i cannot.
Patience may be a virtue in life, but in playing video games? Playing video game itself is not a virtue from the start .... and i also don't confuse video games with real life.
(For example, i don't social in games .. you don't think i don't social in real life, do you?)
I think you miss the point again there's a term in french, les enfants roi and I think it explains much on some of the new attitudes we see in many gamers.
As for patience it's like many other virtues it needs to be practiced and nurtured all the time.
I think if your impatient or a jerk in a mmorpg there's a good chance you are one in real life. Like it or not mmorpgs have a social element to them and how we are in them represents who we are at least to those you interact with in them.
From this post of yours I gather you don't socialize in your mmorpg so what is the point of playing one, you could be playing games better suited to you. I mean why play with others, go in a group finder system if you do not want to "interact/socialize and only intend to use other players as glorified npc's?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Heh you must really have fit when watching tv shows and a commercial comes on! Sometimes i am short on time and will play some POE but that doesn't mean I have throw patience out the window. It is a virtue you know and very very useful in life unless you want to have a heart attack early on.
That is why i generally try to catch tv shows without commercial (like netflix). Obviously i have to endure it if i cannot.
Patience may be a virtue in life, but in playing video games? Playing video game itself is not a virtue from the start .... and i also don't confuse video games with real life.
(For example, i don't social in games .. you don't think i don't social in real life, do you?)
I think it depends on how you look at it. For instance most RPGs derive from stories of people who had to past tests of virtue. One of those tests was of patience many times. To be playing and RPG and not be showing patience seems like an oxymoron.
PatIence is only a virtue if the result of the patience is of value to you. Many times the result is not worth it. In those cases PatIence was a liability.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
On a more serious note, trying to rip a single feature out of its context and discuss its individual merits by applying it to other random games is pointless.
By that logic, talking about a world (a single feature applying to random games), or daily/night cycle (single feature out of its context) is pointless.
Yeah, this topic is pretty pointless from your point of view.
From my view, it is a lot of fun.
Nah it's not pointless to discuss the world in MMORPGs because by specifying MMORPGs you are giving virtual world features context. Specifically, the virtual world of an MMORPG.
My point is that you can't just say that virtual world doesn't matter in a game that isn't even an MMORPG and use that as an argument.
Comments
Pretty much they are fluff added at the discretion of devs. D3 has no clouds ... adding cloud will not make the game more fun.
But the point is that fluff can be added if the devs have money (like Blizz) ... but it should not if it detract from the fun. For example, a night-day cycle is horribly inconvenient if there is no fast forward button (note that SKYRIM has it).
I wouldn't want a MMO with a nite-day cycle and i have to wait 2 hours for the auctioneer to arrive. And if there is no impact on gameplay, and just turning the scene brighter or darker ... well that is fluff.
I can agree with you about certain levels of inconvenience. Having to wait until night for certain npcs, if they're important, isn't a good mechanic. It's one thing if a special event only happens at night in certain areas, as long as that event isn't mandatory for something. But trying to turn in a quest, but can't because the npc's "sleeping" is not good.
As for the part in red, i really, really hope you're being sarcastic. If not, you do realize D3 has rocks, trees and water, right? They don't make the game more fun either, so remove them.
Hell, color and sound doesn't had anything to gameplay. It's just fluff. Why do we need to have colors? Take it out. And sounds? Like music, voices, or anything at all? Unless it's part of the mechanics, which almost never is, why do we have it? Hey, creating story becomes easier. No need for voice acting, since reading is just as effective at conveying the plot. Like books.
And heads too. Why heads? Because legs are for movement, arms for holding things, but heads, in virtual game, have no purpose besides being comestic. Neither the player or the AI needs it to see or hear (which you don't need either). Off with them. Everyone should be headless.
And details on the weapons, armor, enemies, npc, buildings, all these things are fluff. Just make it a generic format and copy-paste everything. Wouldn't want the trees and walls to get in the way of players and force them to go around it, like removing player vision at night (which doesn't happen). And any sense of verticality. Make the whole world completly flat. More compless fluff out.
There we go. No point in wasting precious dev time and resources to build an interesting and immersive world. Just make a black and white, silent, video game with no personality or uniqueness, with the most bland design possible. But hey, the gameplay's still good, right?
Mods, i'm just having fun, not trolling him. Relax
It may be bad design to you, but it's not to everyone. OMG I have to wait a bit for night time to come around (god forbid). There are so much more important things I could be doing right now and I have can't think of anything else to pass the time.
i consider that part of the background graphics. If they take away all the rocks, and the environment still looks good, i probably would not care. In fact, there is no trees and grass in the dessert zone.
The point is that I am all for making the zone looks good (for example, add some rain/snow effect, i wouldn't mind) but don't do it just because and reduces the amount of fun (like waiting for NPCs to wake up, or go to bathroom).
Yes, god forbid. I don't want any waiting in an entertainment product. Sure, i can do other stuff (like watch a movie, or play another game), but why should i?
If a entertainment product is not entertaining, i go somewhere else.
And yes, it is bad design, only to me. I am very clear that it is my preference. If you don't mind being bored and alt-tab to surf the net while waiting for the night-time in a game, good for you. Just don't expect me to use such as badly (for me) designed product.
It's not bad design to me. What I was suggesting is go do something else in the game. Either way the way you make it sound is like you have something so important you can't wait for a bit for an NPC to arrive. Is that bad game design or is it that you have ADD or something of that nature that is preventing you from being able to have the patience to wait for something? It's not like you have to wait all day for it to turn night. Probably 15 minutes to a half hour. You could go grind some more mobs and get some more loot since you seem to like doing that in Diablo 3.
No one is saying are gameplay is not important. A good mmorpg should have quality gameplay AND a quality world. The problem we have here is that some people think moba, and other such games like D3 are mmorpgs. They are not.
No one saying world are important for every genres but like wise claiming worlds are NOT important in any genres MMORPG in particular is asinine. That doesn't mean game play isn't important to these games.
I wish some people would stop bringing MOBA's and D3 into this as they are not mmorpgs.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Time to bust out some Nari logic...
Skyrim has a day and night cycle, it sold 20 million copies. Diablo 3 doesn't have a day and night cycle and it only sold 15 million. Therefore, the market has spoken and Skyrim is clearly what the people want. Every game should have a day and night cycle.
On a more serious note, trying to rip a single feature out of its context and discuss its individual merits by applying it to other random games is pointless.
It's like saying "basil in a terrible ingredient because it's horrible on peanut butter and jelly."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
well .. i don't see a reason to have patience when i use entertainment products. I don't take 15 minutes intermission (unless i need a drink or bathroom) when i watch a tv show, and i don't want a 15 min intermission in games.
Now when i play games, i am not waiting for 15 min, or even 5 min. I suppose i have to wait for the game to load, but that i have no choice.
If it is not a true "wait", that there is something interesting to do, (as part of the story, you are waiting and then something fun happen), then it is ok. But from the SKYRIM model, there is really nothing happening in the middle of the night in the street in front of the vendor. Even that game has a fast-forward button. It would be horrible in a MMO without a fast forward button ... for me, of course.
The OP is stating that the world is the most important part in an MMO, he does not even mention MOBAs, he specifically mentions SWTOR as the type he doesn't like. And I also provided an example of a generic world MMO that was great, SWG. Which BTW was not a MOBA and I also never said that someone stated gameplay is not important, I SAID it was the most important thing.
World = not most important thing. My point, against that of the thread.
By that logic, talking about a world (a single feature applying to random games), or daily/night cycle (single feature out of its context) is pointless.
Yeah, this topic is pretty pointless from your point of view.
From my view, it is a lot of fun.
Heh you must really have fit when watching tv shows and a commercial comes on! Sometimes i am short on time and will play some POE but that doesn't mean I have throw patience out the window. It is a virtue you know and very very useful in life unless you want to have a heart attack early on.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Have you ever been happy in your life? :-) I was and I'm still. For this reason I have enjoyed (and many still do) Wow, Warhammer, Swtor, ..... That "transition" of yours was between zoones were NEVER EVER able to ruin "feeling of big great world, seamless, ... etc etc".
That is why i generally try to catch tv shows without commercial (like netflix). Obviously i have to endure it if i cannot.
Patience may be a virtue in life, but in playing video games? Playing video game itself is not a virtue from the start .... and i also don't confuse video games with real life.
(For example, i don't social in games .. you don't think i don't social in real life, do you?)
I think you miss the point again there's a term in french, les enfants roi and I think it explains much on some of the new attitudes we see in many gamers.
As for patience it's like many other virtues it needs to be practiced and nurtured all the time.
I think if your impatient or a jerk in a mmorpg there's a good chance you are one in real life. Like it or not mmorpgs have a social element to them and how we are in them represents who we are at least to those you interact with in them.
From this post of yours I gather you don't socialize in your mmorpg so what is the point of playing one, you could be playing games better suited to you. I mean why play with others, go in a group finder system if you do not want to "interact/socialize and only intend to use other players as glorified npc's?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
You know the answer...
I think it depends on how you look at it. For instance most RPGs derive from stories of people who had to past tests of virtue. One of those tests was of patience many times. To be playing and RPG and not be showing patience seems like an oxymoron.
Yeah...lol
Nah it's not pointless to discuss the world in MMORPGs because by specifying MMORPGs you are giving virtual world features context. Specifically, the virtual world of an MMORPG.
My point is that you can't just say that virtual world doesn't matter in a game that isn't even an MMORPG and use that as an argument.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?