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The Price of Honesty . . . in Dollars.

deathgiantdeathgiant Piney Flats, TNPosts: 32Member

When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

 

As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

 

Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

 

Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

"What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

"Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

 

 

There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

 

So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

 

. . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

Comments

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,839Member Uncommon
    From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    1) I am not  an investor ... i play games to have fun.

    2) If i ignore the cash shop, and play a f2p MMO for free, devs are not getting my money. Whether they are honest or not do not concern me. The only thing concerns me is whether the game is fun for me.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deathgiant

    When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

     

    As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

     

    Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

     

    Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

    "What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

    "Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

    And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

    Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

     

     

    There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

     

    So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

     

    . . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

    OMFG! Ok, I'm going to go ahead and throw this right out there. I understand that there are cases where CHILDREN mis-understand what they're doing. There are even some iOS games which charge your credit card with the simple press of a button. However, for adults, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE you can give that excuses you from putting money into a game. You know what you're doing when you do it, and if you don't then, as a self-professed "Investor", I've got some great ideas I'd love to throw your way! 

     

    I have 4 kids ranging from 6 to 12. Each of them has their own iPod connected through MY iTunes account. They've each had their devices for 3 years now and I have had but ONE incident where my kids bought something, and that was my youngest, who was 4 at the time!!! 

     

    In addition, each of my kids has an account set up on SWTOR, two of my kids have accounts set up on multiple F2P MMOs. 

     

    The one thing that I can tell you is they know when they're being sold something. Also, they have the mental fortitude to make calculated decisions. My 9 year-old once said to me, "I wanted to buy these gems (for 5 bux), but I only need to wait for an hour, so whatever." with regards to Clash of Clans (which is like one of the grabbiest of grabby games). 

     

    So, not making excuses, but if a 9 year-old is able to make better financial decisions than a 40 year-old person, how bad is that? I'm really sorry, but I have a really tough time sympathizing with people who don't have the necessary intellect to make a good purchase decision. Or maybe they feel it is a good purchase for them.

     

    You know what America really needs more of? Accountability!!! Really, if I need to read one more article about a fat person blaming McDonald's for making them fat, or someone filing a law suit against the lawnmower company because it didn't say "Not a hedge trimmer" and they cut their arm off, I think I'll be sick. Really sorry, but there is a massive difference between someone selling you a lemon and a F2P game. What you're talking about is a car salesperson selling you a car that you KNOW didn't have AC and then you coming back later and complaining it doesn't have AC. You KNOW what the product is, but you think you'll be fine. Sorry, it's not really as underhanded as you're making it out to be. 

     

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I'm with CrazKanuk on this.  The majority of the burden should be on the people playing the games.  If something looks iffy, don't buy it.  If it's a F2P game, and you don't think it'll be fun, don't buy the cash shop items.  If you're not capable of not buying the cash shop items, don't play the game.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • MsPtibiscuitMsPtibiscuit Louvain-La-NeuvePosts: 164Member

    The problem is the players.

    Now even MMO goes out with day-one DLC and cash shop and people still want to buy them.

  • ShrillyShrilly Citra, FLPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deathgiant

    When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

     

    As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

     

    Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

     

    Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

    "What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

    "Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

    And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

    Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

     

     

    There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

     

    So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

     

    . . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

    Man iv'e been saying this for weeks. image

     

    edit:typo and emote

  • ShrillyShrilly Citra, FLPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by deathgiant

    When a used car salesman sells a "lemon" on a lie, he gets a bad reputation by word of mouth. In this day and age, word of mouth is exponentially faster and wider spread. Twitter, facebook, forums, fansites . . . it all piles together into what is the public and private opinion of the masses.

     

    As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts, or unscrupulous notes in EULA's that require a lawyer to understand, or any method that might seem immoral, it hurts the goodwill and trust of those who gave and give them their hard earned money.

     

    Trust and openness is expected in any healthy business relationship. Sure, there are business secrets, but not when it comes to the fundamental legality and mutual understanding between both ends of the transaction.

     

    Lack of understanding and communication can be unnerving.

    "What are you doing with the product(s) into which I am investing my time and money?"

    "Is my personal information, not just credit card information, safe?"

    And "Can I ~trust~ that the company has my best interests at heart?"

    Investors expect communication and openness. Games, telecommunications . . . whatever.

     

     

    There are always nay-sayers, and those that excuse underhanded tactics to separate money from wallets; there are those who do not mind overspending with a company that is known for exploiting their customers. Because they can spend that money again on a different game. And again. And again.

     

    So, final point for all us investors, and something for self-reflection: how many lies and how much deceit in your business affairs until you pack up and head somewhere else?

     

    . . . and final point for those who mistreat their investors: There is a price to honesty . . . in dollars.

    OMFG! Ok, I'm going to go ahead and throw this right out there. I understand that there are cases where CHILDREN mis-understand what they're doing. There are even some iOS games which charge your credit card with the simple press of a button. However, for adults, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE you can give that excuses you from putting money into a game. You know what you're doing when you do it, and if you don't then, as a self-professed "Investor", I've got some great ideas I'd love to throw your way! 

     

    I have 4 kids ranging from 6 to 12. Each of them has their own iPod connected through MY iTunes account. They've each had their devices for 3 years now and I have had but ONE incident where my kids bought something, and that was my youngest, who was 4 at the time!!! 

     

    In addition, each of my kids has an account set up on SWTOR, two of my kids have accounts set up on multiple F2P MMOs. 

     

    The one thing that I can tell you is they know when they're being sold something. Also, they have the mental fortitude to make calculated decisions. My 9 year-old once said to me, "I wanted to buy these gems (for 5 bux), but I only need to wait for an hour, so whatever." with regards to Clash of Clans (which is like one of the grabbiest of grabby games). 

     

    So, not making excuses, but if a 9 year-old is able to make better financial decisions than a 40 year-old person, how bad is that? I'm really sorry, but I have a really tough time sympathizing with people who don't have the necessary intellect to make a good purchase decision. Or maybe they feel it is a good purchase for them.

     

    You know what America really needs more of? Accountability!!! Really, if I need to read one more article about a fat person blaming McDonald's for making them fat, or someone filing a law suit against the lawnmower company because it didn't say "Not a hedge trimmer" and they cut their arm off, I think I'll be sick. Really sorry, but there is a massive difference between someone selling you a lemon and a F2P game. What you're talking about is a car salesperson selling you a car that you KNOW didn't have AC and then you coming back later and complaining it doesn't have AC. You KNOW what the product is, but you think you'll be fine. Sorry, it's not really as underhanded as you're making it out to be. 

     

    Thats what hes pointing out... How much bs are yall willing to buy and take, before you look at the ground and wonder where the innovation was where was the industry heading.

    We will never know.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon

    Not sure if I understand this topic. Since I do not consider myself to be in a bussines relationship with game.

    Games are my hobby, it's entertainment. And yes I spend money to be entertained (just box fee and/or sub, don't care for cashshops)

    I avoid certain games that might feel more like a casino then an actuall game.

    As for trusting gamecompany's or developers, to a certain point I do hope they provide me the promise of releasing a fun game, if not their loss not mine really. But it's the same trust level I have for writters, movie makers and any every other type of entertainment.

    The only investment I make with games is providing myself with some entertainment and as a investment for my gaming hobby. And if it's not entertaining I don't spend money on it.

     

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,889Member Uncommon

    "There's a sucker born every minute."  

     

    And many companies count on this.  In fact, the entire advertising industry is built on it.  Unless you really do think that sparkly new toothpaste is going to make you irresistible to that hot member of your preferred gender.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,603Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
     

    The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

    What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

    The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

    This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

    The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

  • RiannesRiannes bangkokPosts: 71Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Superman0X

     


    Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
     

     

    The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

    What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

    The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

    This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

    The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

     

    nice post. a good read.

  • Creslin321Creslin321 Baltimore, MDPosts: 5,359Member

    You know, I get what CrazKanuk is saying with regard to accountability, but I also get what the OP is saying.

    As for me, I generally will never pre-purchase a game.  Once a game is released there is normally PLENTY of information out on the net for you to make an informed decision.  Don't fall into the trap of pre-ordering...

    However, I do think that some companies make questionable decisions in the interest of profiteering that will cause them to lose customers.  For example, I think that charging a sub, and a premium box price, AND forcing players to buy the collectors edition to play all the races in the game is just a little F'd up.  If it wasn't for this crap, I would probably buy ESO, but as is, I'm going to hold off for now.

    Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.

    You realize you just typed out " I try to vote the right way but too many people vote wrong"

  • kostanzakostanza Seattle, WAPosts: 59Member
    ??? Pretty vague topic here. Sounds like someone paid for something with grand expectations to me.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deathgiant

    As such, when any company, including mmo companies, use "underhanded practices" to achieve their goal of increased revenue, with small print, confusing contracts...

    Can you explain the particular contracts or small print that you re referring to?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,839Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Superman0X

     


    Originally posted by Flyte27 From what I've seen so far in current MMOs people don't care.  They will keep handing over their money.  I've tried to vote with my wallet for a long time, but there are to many people who are supporting these games with micro transactions.  If a game can't live by subscription then there is something wrong with it IMO.  These games may be generating money, but they can't seem to do it in an honest way.  If the game was really entertaining good products people wouldn't mind supporting them via a subscription fee.  For some reason the rules you mention don't apply to the software industry.
     

     

    The problem is that people do not actually understand how you vote with your wallet. Every dollar that you spend, counts as a vote. The market will chase after the money spent.

    What most people do when they say they are 'voting with thier wallet' is NOT spend money on stuff they dont like. When you do this, you dont get ANY say in the outcome.

    The proper (and only effective) way to vote with your wallet is to spend LOTS of money on stuff that you like, or is in the right general category. Want to see more P2P games? Buy 10 accounts, and pay the sub fee monthly. Get everyone else to do the same. Suddenly you will see P2P games making a ton of money, and every developer will want to make a P2P game to cash in.

    This is what has happened with F2P, they were able to sell 2-3x as many subs by making the game free. It is because the people who wanted this were willing to pay for it, that developers suddenly started wanting to make thier games F2P.

    The market always chases after the money spent. There are a few individuals that will try to branch out, and take risks with new markets.... but 80% will always just be following the money. If you want to see things change, make sure that there is always lots of money in the places that you want to go.

    The problem with that (as I pointed out) is that there are no MMORPGs right now worth paying a sub for.  Not even one MMORPG that is out there right now is worth it IMO.  That's why all these MMOs have gone free to play fairly quickly.  A game needs to justify being pay to play.  You don't just support any game that uses pay to play in order to support the payment model.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    A game needs to justify being pay to play. 

    No it does not. Just make it F2P with a cash shop. No justification needed.

     

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member

    Games are not a necessity of life, unless there's something wrong with you. In light of that, no sane person puts their money hoping to change where the genre is headed. If you are placing your bets on any other reason, other than what you find entertaining, you should consider, re-evaluating your mental health and what gaming does to it.

     

    Having said that, it never fails to amaze me how many people have bought lifetime subs for games that ultimately failed to deliver or changed in a way that led the customer dissatisfied. There's nobody to blame but yourself.

     

     

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon

    it's generational. more and more people are growing up "wealthy" and have no consequences for their actions. they see something they want, they buy it. they end up not liking it? "oh well, hey, what's that?" and it's on to the next thing. they have everything they could possibly want so why not have things they don't want/need. it's not about business ethics. it's about consumerism.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • deathgiantdeathgiant Piney Flats, TNPosts: 32Member

    I like that I have provoked thought and opinion. This was my goal, if even at it's smallest measure.

     

    Notice that I did not point fingers and I did not name names. It was meant in a general way for the world as it is, with a slight bending towards mmo and game companies in particular.

     

    I understand you all, and I agree or agree to disagree with you all.

     

    My point stands: Where is the "line in the sand" or the "point of no return" in regards to it all? :)

     

    Edit:

    It is a question of ethics in business practices with a focus on video games. Rolling back servers after selling a large quantity of items, installing p2p software unknowingly on your computer, whatever.

    A sucker is born every minute, yes, and, yes, not all businesses are "bad."

    What qualifies as offensive to your moral standards? And if something offensive appears, do you deal with it or walk away?

    The saying "vote with your wallet" comes to mind. But what point is there in voting if everyone else votes for the other candidate?

    And so, for the sake of posterity . . . many just deal with it. To keep their hobby and the money they invested in it worthwhile . . . yet, when does real life morality intersect with the online world?

    End Edit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by deathgiant

    What qualifies as offensive to your moral standards? And if something offensive appears, do you deal with it or walk away?

    The saying "vote with your wallet" comes to mind. But what point is there in voting if everyone else votes for the other candidate?

    It is a free market. Something offensive to you may not be offensive to others. There is no point in wasting time in things i do not like ... so i just walk away and vote with my time/wallet.

    If you focus the discussion on entertainment, there are plenty of fun things out there that no game/entertainment is indispensible (to me). So if there is anything i do not like (gameplay, price, business model, or whatever ...), i do something else.

    The point is the your dollar is as much power as someone elses. If the market does not go your way, it is just too bad. No one owes you something you like (whether we are talking about game design or business model).

     

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