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Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there...
I have already read those links in past and none of those articles say that 'no one' is spending money on F2P games except for the whales.
That is what is being discussed here.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."-Luke McKinney
Originally posted by Doogiehowser Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there...
Uhh, what's being discussed here was my post as that's what started this chain...
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Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
That looks to me just like a list of google hits taking me to a series of opinion pieces?
You said your claim was based on "fckn statistics"?
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Doogiehowser Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there...
Umm no not really. The guy whom i quoted earlier claimed that 'no one' is spending any money on cash shop except for whales. Which is a ridiculous claim.
No one is denying existence of whales so don't need any satistics for that.
Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
From one of those links..
Koster explains that you wind up with a handful of players who sink a huge amount of money into the game, while most users (upwards of 60%) never pay a dime. The users who do pay that much money, referred to as "whales," are essentially being treated as if they're in a retail store, compared to the more traditional model where you pay $60 for a game only to find out you don't like it. Whatever your views on the model, it's an interesting look at the changing face of monetizing games and is well worth a read.
Originally posted by Distopia Read until your heart's content... https://www.google.com/search?q=F2p+whales&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
take in note i'm going down the google list from first article down.
article 1 - no actual fact or statistic, just a theory how the model can work.
thesis written on game economy, no facts or statistics, just again a theory on how whales work.
actually has examples of real people and how much they've spent in game, most of those people state their spending are low in comparison to how much others have spent in the game.. i guess meaning there is like a bunch of whales..
this article says that if a study is true "whales" are younger males whom also like to play console games.
i see no atual statistics or facts.. i see a lot of theories and write ups on the subject, but no publishers or developers claiming that whales keep their games alive.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by mbrodie
i guess it's a small % making these games more money then they ever saw when they had a forced sub -_- either way many games have become more profitable since converting to a hybrid model. so regardless of if it's a small or large % it's more money
You just explained it above, when talking about spending 200+. It's that that keeps those games afloat, the "whales"..
You have made a lot of bad assumptive comments in this thread. But this is just one that sticks out.
There is a reason why this happens. Because there arent enough people willing to pay for soemthing they dont think is worth it. But the fans will spend and pay regardless. So if this game ends up like so many others and there are 100K peopel willing to pay a sub is that enough for Zenimax? Not hardly. They will make a hybrid model of some sort and try and see what the fanbois will still pay and what they will also buy. Then they will put stuff in a cash shop that they think a lot of people will buy.
The idea that 'whales' support games is ludicrous. Maybe in browser based pay to win trash games but not in games with an actual plan. Rift, Lotro, SWOTOR, Fallen Earth, GW2(even though they have never had a sub), maybe even AOC all have plans where I suspect the majority of players spend money in the cash shop.
So when you start comparing ESO and free to play games makes sure youre comparing it to the RIGHT free to play games. The games who started sub and went free to play and had a plan in place to make it viable. Comparing ESO to facebook browser games is a stupid argument. Or any less than 'very good' MMO. Even Dragon Prophets isnt a game you can compare to ESO.
Games that come out with a hybrid option with VIABLE reasons to subscribe will be the norm. But companies are still fooling the few people who think subscription based games are possible, and 'better'. They arent. Every game that I listed is MUCH better no (in terms of content anyway) than they were at release when they charged a subscription. SO why is it people think subs are the end all be all of making a good game?
If people claim no one played those games and that is why they went free to play that can be a solid argument and probably true. But if these games cant do it why will ESO? because ES was already a game and not a book or movie? Semi valid argument but it also goes the other way and with that history of being a game some expectations are expected and many people have said over and over again the game isnt nearly ES enough. But in name only. So that aspect might hurt it more than it helps it.
There wont ever be another subscription based game developed that will stay subscription if it focuses on the western world (N.A. and Europe). Some games that get subsidized by millions of Asians paying cut rate amounts (WoW and FFXIV) might make it. But it didnt keep Aoin sub based very long, which I suspect will be the same fate as FFXIV eventually. WoW cant do it either thats why they have a cash shop now so that subsidizes them.
ANY subscription based game is going to have to be released in a form that represents a game 2 or more expansions into its release. Which IS possible but would cost way too much money up front and will never be done. because no one is interested in making a GREAT game anymore. They all want to release a game that is good enough that makes money. Or if they can get away with it an average game with a big name and have a sub and a cash shop.
ESO is a referendum on whether or not more games try this approach. If it 'succeeds' it will most definitely become the rule and not the exception, and dont be surprised to see games like Wildstar and any other hyped game start fooling around with a cash shop in addition to the sub they want.
Totally off topic but there is only so much people can say about the problems the game has, and they have been debated to death. As have the free to play or buy t play model. But a lot of the arguments dont get to the meat of the situation.
Originally posted by Doogiehowser Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Doogiehowser Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there...
Do people here not know what an exaggeration is or what? that's what he was doing... It's done in most cases to emphasize a point.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
That still leaves us with 40% who spend money in cash shop (not counting whales) which goes against the claim that 'no one' except whales is spending money on F2P games.
Originally posted by Distopia
Do people here not know what an exaggeration is or what that's what he was doing... It's done in most cases to emphasize a point.
You don't need to defend him by making excuses for him. Exaggeration is the wrong way to emphasize a point especially when you are trying to convince others on that point.
thats a theory on how F2P models could be sustained by whales.. not factual information that whales sustain free to play games... i read like 8 articles dude.. none of them were anything more then opinion and theory.
If people are all worked up about bugs then its obvious they haven't played an Elder Scrolls game before.
Originally posted by Gilllean I said this 100 time already... every thing will be fine !!!!!
Well i guess it settles everything then. Close down the forum guys nothing more to discuss here.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
Where do you think Koster gets his numbers from? This is what that guy does now, he basically gives seminars on the ins and outs of gaming.
http://kotaku.com/who-are-the-whales-driving-free-to-play-gaming-youd-1197333118 WIth an actual study
Originally posted by rodarin Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by mbrodie
This guy gets it... thankyou for your time sir, it's much appreciated... i'm glad at least a few people in here are smart enough to realise things for how they are not how they should be in an idealistic world.
and i agree with everything you said completely, especially that these games are more content rich and playing better since adopting a hybrid model, then they ever were as sub based games... people complain Trion have slowed down since adopting a Hybrid model.. no way, they are still full steam ahead.
The fact is, Hybrid models are the way of the future and do make more revenue... if you think that ESO doesnt already have plans if not already putting systems in place for when they are going to make the transition you're crazy, these games release so trashy nowadays because they release full knowing they will go F2P / Hybrid in the first 12 months and usually have people working on the systems so they're ready for when it's time.
At work so trying to keep up lol....
Yeah it's an interesting topic and being a pre pub 9 SWG vet I am always interested to read Raph's opinion on something but in this case thats all it was...interesting though.
However it does not match my experience at all....in SWTOR there of course a few whales but as a general statement, that game makes truck loads of money from it's CM because so many individual players spend maybe $50 - $100 a month in the CM.
I'll take my own experience and BWs sales metrics over a series of opinion pieces any day
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
that article you just linked
So, who are these "whales"? You might be surprised. If a study by EEDAR is actually true, the whales are actually the stereotype of the hardcore gamer: young(er) males who also play console games.
<span js_text-annotate="" text-annotation-button="" icon="" notranslate"="">again, it's a theory
Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Patchez Originally posted by Distopia Just did yet you have to do the work, it's there... ANd my bad for expecting people to know common knowledge...
he still doesnt get it's an opinion / theory piece though, thats the problem... in his mind it's fact.
Well it most certainly all makes sense but also sort of proves how sneaky and cost effective developers are.
Let's not fix it now because we can look better showing massive improvements later is a sneaky idea.Let's leave the lag because it costs us less now and again makes us look better later again sort of lame but yes makes sense when ONLY talking about dollars.
I would not jump all over Bethesda/Zeni because i am 99.99% certain all the developers operate under the same ideals.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by mbrodie
If Trion hadnt taken on Defiance and funneled so much money from Rift into that disaster they might not have made the free to play transition at all. But I am sure they are glad they did.
I am not a fan of the new minecraft like game theyre making but when you look at the money a lot of these browser games make it isnt surprising. A lot of these game make WoW numbers (even the made up ones) look like pocket change.
"old school" MMOs are a thing of the past I think. Yes there are way more gamers nowadays and more 'MMO" players but not the same type of MMO players from even a decade ago.
I think that is why there are two distinct camps in these debates and arguments. I might be an anomaly though because I am older but am not a pro subscription guy. I suspect most of the pro sub guys are guys who have been around awhile (30 +) and have ideas that are unchanged and havent learned from the past 5 years that subs dont work anymore.
I am not opposed to ta sub based game but I said in that post above what it would take to make a game 'subworthy'. Basically a game that isnt grindy but has enough developed content and player made content to keep people busy for months, basically a game you cant see the majority of it before the first expansion comes out. Like I said never going to happen again sadly.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by rodarin Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by mbrodie
First and foremost...I have no problem with F2P, cash shops, or what have you. I do look down on people who care little to spend on things they enjoy, who won't offer their support for it.
Are you saying I'm not smart enough to realize things for how they are? Sounds like it...
The funny part is, You say that yet you completely disregard the point I was making.
My point was the majority do not spend ( at least that's what studies show). SO who's not seeing things for how they are?
Originally posted by mbrodie Oes any day
I linked that because it was the first I saw that gave some numbers. Am I supposed to link you every study I can find, rather than you actually going and informing yourself on this matter?
I never said it was fact by the way, I said it's based on statistics, there's a difference.
It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Originally posted by rodarin Originally posted by mbrodie
see i'm 30 in like 7 days, i've been gaming online since i was like 15 or 16, but i like the market have evolved and can appreciate a good hybrid model and be willing to give my money to the developers to continue making it be the best game it can be, i do not however feel i should NEED to pay $15 a month to play a half finished sub par release, with little to no content. I should have the option, if i want to pay the $15 i can, if not thats fine too i can put my money into the games otherways.
That being said, i'm still gonna play the game, i might not sub... we'll see what happens.
Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by evilized Just like that SWTOR miracle patch just before release that fixed all of the problems the game ever had in beta, letting it sail off into the subscription based mmo sunset of untold wealth and critical acclaim. Oh wait
Not that I believe in miracle patches, but does anyone else get tired of reading these types of posts (no thought put into them what so ever)? TOR's failure had nothing to do with bugs or a buggy launch... Irrelevant point is irrelevant.