The biggest problem is that the MMORPG audience majority no longer consists of MMORPG players. Ironically, the majority of MMORPG players are just single player gamers who somehow got confused and ended up here.
Blunt but sadly true for the most part. mmos seriously need to focus more content and mechanics around "multiplayer." We need more content that requires you to group in the vein of early mmos like FFXI and everquest. Not saying that it should go that far (90% GRP required, 10% soloable), but now most mmos are solo games with groups/multiplayer tacked on (90% solo, 10% group). How about 50/50? or even 60/40 either side. Also people should not look at it as "forced grouping," because you should want to group, the game should BE about grouping, its a multiplayer game. This wouldn't even be an issue if some of the mmo's that have come out recently were more group oriented, but they're not. Theres no variety, they are basically all solo focused.
I ran off in a direction. One of the people asked for my help in getting rid of people burning their town down. I helped them out and went on my way. There are quests in ESO? Didn't notice.
I can not seem to get into the quests in eso. Not like I did in skyrim, oblivion, or even daggerfall.
There are times when I am doing a quest in skyrim, run into some side quest that sucks me in and I forget all about the one I was doing.
ESO does not feel like that...it has me working pretty linear. I could not really pin point what makes it like that. Also the class/skill setup does not feel like skyrim to me. I like the game play but just nothing there to hold me.
Oh well I will give it another go , later on.
Back to tsw and swtor for a while longer for me.
You know you are old when the dev's on the games you play are almost young enough to be your grand-kids.
Originally posted by Jimmydean These quests are terrible. Story and Lore can exist in a fantasy world without being shoved down your throat every second you are playing. Single Player games? Sure, they exist because of this. In an MMORPG, there is no place.
I really don't understand how people enjoy no risk no reward handholding quests. Doing chores for NPC's gets old, for me, in about 30 minutes. I guess it wouldn't be so objectionable if it wasn't so required. Completely optional side quests are fine, but trying to force a story down my throat just doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't be any stories except the ones I make myself in a virtual world. Stories make the game completely linear...linear means less freedom, no thanks.
Well that's ThemeParks for you. I still can't believe they went all out ThemePark instead of atleast taking some pointers from previous Elder Scrolls game and provide alternate ways of advancing beside moronic quest hub one.
Serious question. I did maybe 50 quests this weekend, and every one was more or less the same:
1. Go here, talk to this guy.
2. Go there, talk to this other guy.
3. Go to the third spot and kill something for a shiny.
4. Use the shiny to save the day, then go back and talk to that guy again.
It's all totally boring stuff that just feels like one chore after another. The quest writing is REALLY bad. Contrast this with other themeparks like 'The Secret World' which is a similar, but at least a lot of the quests had interesting puzzles or something to break the mould (and that game utterly failed). ESO quests seem like they were written by 14 year olds, who were aiming at 10 year olds as their target audience. No intelligence whatsoever.
I'm a huge fan of ES single player games, but this is _nothing_ like the sandbox feel of those games. It doesn't help that combat is terrible: you literally don't have to aim at anything. If you point your target reticle 180 degrees opposite your enemy, your character will automatically turn around and never miss the target.
I can only imagine the kind of person who enjoys this type of progression as someone who has never played a themepark in their life.
So, now that you've complained, what is your proposed system? No alternatives and this is just whining.
Originally posted by Jimmydean These quests are terrible. Story and Lore can exist in a fantasy world without being shoved down your throat every second you are playing. Single Player games? Sure, they exist because of this. In an MMORPG, there is no place.
I really don't understand how people enjoy no risk no reward handholding quests. Doing chores for NPC's gets old, for me, in about 30 minutes. I guess it wouldn't be so objectionable if it wasn't so required. Completely optional side quests are fine, but trying to force a story down my throat just doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't be any stories except the ones I make myself in a virtual world. Stories make the game completely linear...linear means less freedom, no thanks.
Well that's ThemeParks for you. I still can't believe they went all out ThemePark instead of atleast taking some pointers from previous Elder Scrolls game and provide alternate ways of advancing beside moronic quest hub one.
What do you expect from Matt Firor? He's the guy that tried to WoWify DAoC with the raid or die mentality.
Originally posted by Soki123 It definitely doesn t feel or look any different from almost every themepark MMO in existence. I foulnd it utterly boring, and almost amateur feeling. The game shouldn t have a sub IMO, and I m sure we ll see that dropping soon enough.
The problem with posts like this is, it would be like me saying this game is a definite success because I like it. How would you respond to that I wonder?
No its not even close to saying what you did. He stated anecdotal reasoning why he felt the game was going to fail. Not to mention he also used historical anecdotal reasoning from him playing previous Themepark MMOs. To him, the game feel like it will go F2P quickly based on his reasoning.
You on the other hand said 'because i like it it will be good." No explanation other than your enjoyment of the game.
The biggest problem is that the MMORPG audience majority no longer consists of MMORPG players. Ironically, the majority of MMORPG players are just single player gamers who somehow got confused and ended up here.
Blunt but sadly true for the most part. mmos seriously need to focus more content and mechanics around "multiplayer." We need more content that requires you to group in the vein of early mmos like FFXI and everquest. Not saying that it should go that far (90% GRP required, 10% soloable), but now most mmos are solo games with groups/multiplayer tacked on (90% solo, 10% group). How about 50/50? or even 60/40 either side. Also people should not look at it as "forced grouping," because you should want to group, the game should BE about grouping, its a multiplayer game. This wouldn't even be an issue if some of the mmo's that have come out recently were more group oriented, but they're not. Theres no variety, they are basically all solo focused.
Interesting... That said, unless you actually involve massive groups of players in your game (raids with 20+ players, large scale PvP) then the MMORPG format is probably overkill for all the group content anyway.
Also, rarely is the (small) group content meaningful in MMOs for a group, often they just scale the health bar of enemies (as will probably be the case in the future challenge zone or whatever it is called in ESO).
Even in sandbox games you're stuck dealing with content you can complete until you move past it ( skill up). Other than that what?
You can go straight to the main land after the introduction now if that's what you're asking...
You don't need a sandbox to make a decent quest system.
Have you ever played Skyrim?
That's how you build a quest system........... unfortunately ESO took everything from WoW and almost nothing from TES.
Enjoy your boring "follow the path" MMO, I will re-play Skyrim instead, it's more fun and I won't spend a dime.
Questing here is almost identical to how it is in Skyrim, so I have to ask have you played ESO?
Again though there are no quest hubs in ESO. The term refers to small areas you're forced to stay in because the next quests do not open up until you reach that point, think AOC. As you complete quests in AOC you turn exclamations gold from silver (ie unlock them my completing the prior chain). Here chains only lie within individual content paths (quests that expand to encompass a save the village scenario) These are usually a bit deeper than your other filler quests, but even the filler here is doen more like a single player RPG.
I have followed no set path in ESO thus far again a comment that makes me wonder if you've even played what you're commenting on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd suggest the tailor and his loving wife quest in Glenumbra, especially for the dialogue at the end as they wander off hand in hand.
I stumbled onto it while just wandering around, I really felt the tailor appreciated my help. Theres few NPC's in a game that have conveyed such subtle emotion about the happiness of their wedded life. I'm happy she will never let him out of her sight again after his parting words to me.
Don't overthink everything it saps the joy out of games. Just walk around do a quest or not, take it easy and play . Do the main quest and just advance killing mobs if you do not want to do the quests. There is no point in disliking a mechanic and trying to play the game. That will be a surefire way for you to lose interest.
I recall my very first quest in Everquest the Freeport guard asked me to bring him some rat tails or was the Felwithe guard who asked for batwings. Anyway the point is I do prefer doing killing for a reason so people like me enjoy questing. You do not enjoy then do not do it. Avoid it and go do something else.
Originally posted by Soki123 It definitely doesn t feel or look any different from almost every themepark MMO in existence. I foulnd it utterly boring, and almost amateur feeling. The game shouldn t have a sub IMO, and I m sure we ll see that dropping soon enough.
The problem with posts like this is, it would be like me saying this game is a definite success because I like it. How would you respond to that I wonder?
No its not even close to saying what you did. He stated anecdotal reasoning why he felt the game was going to fail. Not to mention he also used historical anecdotal reasoning from him playing previous Themepark MMOs. To him, the game feel like it will go F2P quickly based on his reasoning.
You on the other hand said 'because i like it it will be good." No explanation other than your enjoyment of the game.
Bingo, but hey, im the bad guy.
LOL bingo? You used two arbitrary words, only one more than I did, again bingo? Who said you're the bad guy?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The biggest problem is that the MMORPG audience majority no longer consists of MMORPG players. Ironically, the majority of MMORPG players are just single player gamers who somehow got confused and ended up here.
Blunt but sadly true for the most part. mmos seriously need to focus more content and mechanics around "multiplayer." We need more content that requires you to group in the vein of early mmos like FFXI and everquest. Not saying that it should go that far (90% GRP required, 10% soloable), but now most mmos are solo games with groups/multiplayer tacked on (90% solo, 10% group). How about 50/50? or even 60/40 either side. Also people should not look at it as "forced grouping," because you should want to group, the game should BE about grouping, its a multiplayer game. This wouldn't even be an issue if some of the mmo's that have come out recently were more group oriented, but they're not. Theres no variety, they are basically all solo focused.
"Modern MMOs are MMOs for people that don't like MMOs, for people that want to play solo"
The Quests are not that much different then the ones you get in Skyrim. Most of these quests are go to Dungeon X/Y/Z kill/get X/Y/Z or bring me X/Y/Z random stuff or go and talk to X/Y/Z. .
Its only the story telling that makes it interesting
I summarize the first few steps of the main quest of Sykrim.
Walk through helgen, Kill npcs on the Way, go to Riverwood talk to NPC. Go to Whiterun, talk to NPC, go to Dungeon, get item, kill NPCs on the way. Go back to Whiterun, talk to NPC. Kill Boss mob. Go back talk to NPC. Go to the Greybeards, go to dungeon...and so on.
And thats how 99,999999% of all quests ever made work
Originally posted by Soki123 It definitely doesn t feel or look any different from almost every themepark MMO in existence. I foulnd it utterly boring, and almost amateur feeling. The game shouldn t have a sub IMO, and I m sure we ll see that dropping soon enough.
The problem with posts like this is, it would be like me saying this game is a definite success because I like it. How would you respond to that I wonder?
No its not even close to saying what you did. He stated anecdotal reasoning why he felt the game was going to fail. Not to mention he also used historical anecdotal reasoning from him playing previous Themepark MMOs. To him, the game feel like it will go F2P quickly based on his reasoning.
You on the other hand said 'because i like it it will be good." No explanation other than your enjoyment of the game.
Bingo, but hey, im the bad guy.
LOL bingo? You used two arbitrary words, only one more than I did, again bingo? Who said you're the bad guy?
You re obviously implying it, I m not that daft. I personally think it s one of the worst MMOs in a long time, and no different then any themepark in a long time.
Serious question. I did maybe 50 quests this weekend, and every one was more or less the same:
1. Go here, talk to this guy.
2. Go there, talk to this other guy.
3. Go to the third spot and kill something for a shiny.
4. Use the shiny to save the day, then go back and talk to that guy again.
It's all totally boring stuff that just feels like one chore after another. The quest writing is REALLY bad. Contrast this with other themeparks like 'The Secret World' which is a similar, but at least a lot of the quests had interesting puzzles or something to break the mould (and that game utterly failed). ESO quests seem like they were written by 14 year olds, who were aiming at 10 year olds as their target audience. No intelligence whatsoever.
I'm a huge fan of ES single player games, but this is _nothing_ like the sandbox feel of those games. It doesn't help that combat is terrible: you literally don't have to aim at anything. If you point your target reticle 180 degrees opposite your enemy, your character will automatically turn around and never miss the target.
I can only imagine the kind of person who enjoys this type of progression as someone who has never played a themepark in their life.
Doesn't matter what type of questing system a game has, there will always be people who will think it's boring. I'd ask you what you would suggest, but I already know that you don't have an answer for that question.
Questing here is almost identical to how it is in Skyrim, so I have to ask have you played ESO?
Again though there are no quest hubs in ESO. The term refers to small areas you're forced to stay in because the next quests do not open up until you reach that point, think AOC.
Nope
In Skyrim if I travel the whole map I will find quests appropriate to my level along the way and in any place I choose to visit.
In ESO you don't. All the quests are close to you, if you travel further away from your level hub, you won't find any quest appropriate to your level.
Just because all quests givers are not gathered in a square meter like in other MMOs, but scattered a bit further away from each other, doesn't make ESO a quest hub free game.
As a said before, in ESO the hubs are less obvious because quest givers are not placed like they making love on top of another, but the hubs are still there.
LOL bingo? You used two arbitrary words, only one more than I did, again bingo? Who said you're the bad guy?
You re obviously implying it, I m not that daft. I personally think it s one of the worst MMOs in a long time, and no different then any themepark in a long time.
Implying? How in any shape or form did I imply you're a bad guy? You can think what you want about eso that certainly doesn't make you a bad guy, not sure why I even have to say that., I was just wondering how you'd reply to the opposite statement presented as you did yours.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Questing here is almost identical to how it is in Skyrim, so I have to ask have you played ESO?
Again though there are no quest hubs in ESO. The term refers to small areas you're forced to stay in because the next quests do not open up until you reach that point, think AOC.
Nope
In Skyrim if I travel the whole map I will find quests appropriate to my level along the way and in any place I choose to visit.
In ESO you don't. All the quests are close to you, if you travel further away from your level hub, you won't find any quest appropriate to your level.
Just because all quests givers are not gathered in a square meter like in other MMOs, but scattered a bit further away from each other, doesn't make ESO a quest hub free game.
As a said before, in ESO the hubs are less obvious because quest givers are not placed like they making love on top of another, but the hubs are still there.
We'll have to disagree and leave it at that, no need for a back and forth on a well known word and it's usage, you have your own usage of that word....
That said...You realize in Skyrim it's like that because the whole world scales to your level right? That would go over great in an MMO...
Sandboxes are no different than themeparks in this regard in the MMO world. There's always going to be a skill or level gate to content in these games unless they phase the world to every individual player by level, yeah MMO fans would love that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by psykobillySerious question. I did maybe 50 quests this weekend, and every one was more or less the same:1. Go here, talk to this guy.2. Go there, talk to this other guy.3. Go to the third spot and kill something for a shiny.4. Use the shiny to save the day, then go back and talk to that guy again.It's all totally boring stuff that just feels like one chore after another. The quest writing is REALLY bad. Contrast this with other themeparks like 'The Secret World' which is a similar, but at least a lot of the quests had interesting puzzles or something to break the mould (and that game utterly failed). ESO quests seem like they were written by 14 year olds, who were aiming at 10 year olds as their target audience. No intelligence whatsoever.I'm a huge fan of ES single player games, but this is _nothing_ like the sandbox feel of those games. It doesn't help that combat is terrible: you literally don't have to aim at anything. If you point your target reticle 180 degrees opposite your enemy, your character will automatically turn around and never miss the target.I can only imagine the kind of person who enjoys this type of progression as someone who has never played a themepark in their life.
Albert Einstein is widely credited with saying The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.
-Rig
Former GM and associate game designer for SOE and Square Enix. (2001-2008)
Comments
Blunt but sadly true for the most part. mmos seriously need to focus more content and mechanics around "multiplayer."
We need more content that requires you to group in the vein of early mmos like FFXI and everquest. Not saying that it should go that far (90% GRP required, 10% soloable), but now most mmos are solo games with groups/multiplayer tacked on (90% solo, 10% group). How about 50/50? or even 60/40 either side. Also people should not look at it as "forced grouping," because you should want to group, the game should BE about grouping, its a multiplayer game. This wouldn't even be an issue if some of the mmo's that have come out recently were more group oriented, but they're not. Theres no variety, they are basically all solo focused.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
Not sure what the problem is.
I ran off in a direction. One of the people asked for my help in getting rid of people burning their town down. I helped them out and went on my way. There are quests in ESO? Didn't notice.
Questing is not brainless, it's you who chooses to do it brainlessly.
no it depends on the design of the questing content. how much thinking it requires.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
I can not seem to get into the quests in eso. Not like I did in skyrim, oblivion, or even daggerfall.
There are times when I am doing a quest in skyrim, run into some side quest that sucks me in and I forget all about the one I was doing.
ESO does not feel like that...it has me working pretty linear. I could not really pin point what makes it like that. Also the class/skill setup does not feel like skyrim to me. I like the game play but just nothing there to hold me.
Oh well I will give it another go , later on.
Back to tsw and swtor for a while longer for me.
You know you are old when the dev's on the games you play are almost young enough to be your grand-kids.
Well that's ThemeParks for you. I still can't believe they went all out ThemePark instead of atleast taking some pointers from previous Elder Scrolls game and provide alternate ways of advancing beside moronic quest hub one.
My gaming blog
So, now that you've complained, what is your proposed system? No alternatives and this is just whining.
What do you expect from Matt Firor? He's the guy that tried to WoWify DAoC with the raid or die mentality.
Bingo, but hey, im the bad guy.
Interesting... That said, unless you actually involve massive groups of players in your game (raids with 20+ players, large scale PvP) then the MMORPG format is probably overkill for all the group content anyway.
Also, rarely is the (small) group content meaningful in MMOs for a group, often they just scale the health bar of enemies (as will probably be the case in the future challenge zone or whatever it is called in ESO).
Questing here is almost identical to how it is in Skyrim, so I have to ask have you played ESO?
Again though there are no quest hubs in ESO. The term refers to small areas you're forced to stay in because the next quests do not open up until you reach that point, think AOC. As you complete quests in AOC you turn exclamations gold from silver (ie unlock them my completing the prior chain). Here chains only lie within individual content paths (quests that expand to encompass a save the village scenario) These are usually a bit deeper than your other filler quests, but even the filler here is doen more like a single player RPG.
I have followed no set path in ESO thus far again a comment that makes me wonder if you've even played what you're commenting on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd suggest the tailor and his loving wife quest in Glenumbra, especially for the dialogue at the end as they wander off hand in hand.
I stumbled onto it while just wandering around, I really felt the tailor appreciated my help. Theres few NPC's in a game that have conveyed such subtle emotion about the happiness of their wedded life. I'm happy she will never let him out of her sight again after his parting words to me.
Don't overthink everything it saps the joy out of games. Just walk around do a quest or not, take it easy and play . Do the main quest and just advance killing mobs if you do not want to do the quests. There is no point in disliking a mechanic and trying to play the game. That will be a surefire way for you to lose interest.
I recall my very first quest in Everquest the Freeport guard asked me to bring him some rat tails or was the Felwithe guard who asked for batwings. Anyway the point is I do prefer doing killing for a reason so people like me enjoy questing. You do not enjoy then do not do it. Avoid it and go do something else.
LOL bingo? You used two arbitrary words, only one more than I did, again bingo? Who said you're the bad guy?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"Modern MMOs are MMOs for people that don't like MMOs, for people that want to play solo"
The Quests are not that much different then the ones you get in Skyrim. Most of these quests are go to Dungeon X/Y/Z kill/get X/Y/Z or bring me X/Y/Z random stuff or go and talk to X/Y/Z. .
Its only the story telling that makes it interesting
I summarize the first few steps of the main quest of Sykrim.
Walk through helgen, Kill npcs on the Way, go to Riverwood talk to NPC. Go to Whiterun, talk to NPC, go to Dungeon, get item, kill NPCs on the way. Go back to Whiterun, talk to NPC. Kill Boss mob. Go back talk to NPC. Go to the Greybeards, go to dungeon...and so on.
And thats how 99,999999% of all quests ever made work
You re obviously implying it, I m not that daft. I personally think it s one of the worst MMOs in a long time, and no different then any themepark in a long time.
Doesn't matter what type of questing system a game has, there will always be people who will think it's boring. I'd ask you what you would suggest, but I already know that you don't have an answer for that question.
Nope
In Skyrim if I travel the whole map I will find quests appropriate to my level along the way and in any place I choose to visit.
In ESO you don't. All the quests are close to you, if you travel further away from your level hub, you won't find any quest appropriate to your level.
Just because all quests givers are not gathered in a square meter like in other MMOs, but scattered a bit further away from each other, doesn't make ESO a quest hub free game.
As a said before, in ESO the hubs are less obvious because quest givers are not placed like they making love on top of another, but the hubs are still there.
Implying? How in any shape or form did I imply you're a bad guy? You can think what you want about eso that certainly doesn't make you a bad guy, not sure why I even have to say that., I was just wondering how you'd reply to the opposite statement presented as you did yours.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We'll have to disagree and leave it at that, no need for a back and forth on a well known word and it's usage, you have your own usage of that word....
That said...You realize in Skyrim it's like that because the whole world scales to your level right? That would go over great in an MMO...
Sandboxes are no different than themeparks in this regard in the MMO world. There's always going to be a skill or level gate to content in these games unless they phase the world to every individual player by level, yeah MMO fans would love that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Albert Einstein is widely credited with saying The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.
-Rig
There Is Always Hope!