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ESO launching with horse available in cash shop (poll included)

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  • umcorianumcorian Boston, MAPosts: 466Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by umcorian

    You're arguing philosophy. I don't care about philosophy. 

    Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage."
    You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."

    You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.

    I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.

    I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill.  I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse.  You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.

    That's fair - especially the part where you said I'm not too excited in the first place. But let's be reasonable: are people really still falling for hype these days? Do I have to *really* be excited for a game before it's even out before my opinion is valid? I was going to buy the game. That should be enough to get me a seat at the table of this discussion.

    The fastest way they could close my open mind is to have a full pay-to-play subscription model that sells mechanical advantages - no matter how slight or how temporary - at a premium.

    That's a mountain for me - abso-fucking-lutely. 

  • Randallt3mpRandallt3mp Menlo Park, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by umcorian

    You're arguing philosophy. I don't care about philosophy. 

    Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage."
    You: "It is okay because, in theory, the mechanical advantage you're given is not always going to be useful."

    You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.

    I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.

    I would frame it more as you're arguing mountain, I'm arguing mole hill.  I would say that if this issue is enough to get you not to play the game, you must not have been that excited about it in the first place. By your own admission, even if it is an issue, it is an inherently temporary one which is solved as soon as you save up enough money for a horse.  You're deciding to reject the potential of hundreds or thousands of hours of fun over the chance that you *might* be at a slight disadvantage for the first 10-20 of those hours.

    EDIT: And enough already with the "They LIED!!!!" posts.  We have no reason at all to believe they didn't simply change their minds.  Changing your position doesn't retroactively turn statements you honestly meant at the time into lies.

    So where do you draw the line then? Or do you?  What would it take from them for you to say hey "this isn't right, i dont like this."  Don't give me some crazy exaggerated crap either.  Give me a reasonable situation on a spectrum. 

    The problem is they aren't going to suddenly start slaughtering kittens on twitch (obv exaggerated).  They will gradually see what they can get away with and before you know it you'll be spending alot more that you originally though you would have and things will have changed alot more than you expected.

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  • hail2dathiefhail2dathief Baltimore, MDPosts: 229Member Uncommon
    Yeah this definitely is bad news, not because it's just a horse but because it starts with just a horse and ends up being a full blown cash shop.  I was fine with them having the shop for character appearance changes, renaming, etc. but selling actual in game items in a cash shop def. sends me a bad impression and even before it's launched.  Cash shops are abominations and i curse the jack off who first implemented one and i also curse the asshats who use them.  If no one used them, we would never see them in the genre again.  Hopefully, it's nothing more than Zenimax making the crybabies who couldn't pay an extra $4 dollars (that's right, after %20 off that you can get on greenmanmag it's a whopping $4 extra) for the IE happy.

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  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member

    I'm shocked that they did not wait untail after launch to do this....   I bet they lose a lot of money even if they pull the horse off the store now, because of customer trust and canceling pre orders.

  • SimonVDHSimonVDH GdanskPosts: 178Member

    1. Anybody who bought Imperial Edition already bought a horse for cash.

    2. Buying horse is just an alternative to buying full Imperial Edition upgrade. It gives you an option to not buy Imperial race, Rings of Mara and Mudcrab pet, if the only thing you want is a horse.

    3. It's way better than buying in game house for hundreds of $, or buing space ships for real money in a game centered around flying space ships, years before the game release.

    4. (and I will go with a bold font here, becouse that's how important it is) Does it make a game less or more fun?

    It doesn't for me. I want to play this game becouse it's an Elder Scrolls world in a multiplayer surrounding. I want it to be high quality, immersive, amusing and entertaining. If they make a cash shop that will stop the game from beeing like that, than it will bother me.

    The important thing is the quality of the game, not if there's a pink mudcrab, or yellow horse availble in a cash shop. ( Although a yellow horse would be somewhat immersion breaking... on the other hand, pink mudcrab sounds great )

     

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    I think Zenimax is really missing a unique opportunity here.

     

    If instead of rthe "Palomino horse" they put in "dead imperial horse", they'd sell TONS. I mean just to this forum alone!

     

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

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  • JHenryJHenry Downers Grove, ILPosts: 188Member
    voted yes. I'm now worried about the future of the game.

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  • IneveraskforthisIneveraskforthis Macros 7Posts: 374Member

    First Horses, then gears then eventually XP potions and exclusive contents.

     

     

    Disappointing to say the least Zenmiax.

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg

     

    You're still wasting money.

    If you have access to the white imperial horse why not just buy 2 imperial horses?  

    cash shop arguments don't phase me.  i don't care if they add a full blown Pay-To-Win cash shop.  If they do we'll all just play something else, they'll go under, and this old world will still be spinning.

    It's not up to you to decide when someone else is wasting money.  It's their money to spend as they see fit, and if they enjoy what they get for it, it wasn't a waste.  And please, stop with the myth of the "Pay-To-Win" cash shop, no major game has ever had one.

     

    It is a very fair statement that paying money for something you already have is a waste of money.  Disagree all you want but I have the right to call it that if I like.  The only reason to get the other horse is for the look.  If they want the look that is one thing but we weren't talking cosmetics.  

    Stats-wise the cash horse is equivalent to the imperial horse which is inferior to the in-game bought 40k gold horses.  This is the only point I made and anything else you are arguing about has nothing to do with any post i've made here.

    And please, read the post before you reply.  You obviously did not because I never started "with the myth of the Pay-To-Win cash shop."  

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    Screw that. I will support either revenue model guys, just not two in one game.. Seems like they are in maximize revenue mode already. Just like TSW, SWTOR, Champions Online and STO before them. I just get the feeling they are gearing up for a switch from sub to B2P/F2P. I hate when companies do that and I'll never play a mmo that switches revenue models. Played TSW and SWTOR until they made the switch and haven't been back since. It seems that once they switch revenue models they also switch mindsets from content (retention) to cater (enticement) , stick a fork in me, I'm done.

     

    Good luck though, I still hope it does well and they stay focused on providing solid content for their players rather than catering to their players wallets.

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    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Personally it's not enough to turn me away from the game, but it's certainly enough to ruin any level of trust going in, which hurts long term appeal. I mentioned in another thread the imperial edition was enough of a slap, considering it's my go to choice of race in TES, I had already come to grips with them being unavailable, then they started selling them. Now they completely change their tune on purchasable items. FOr me it's not the existence of a cash shop, it's the 180; I have enough of a problem placing trust in any company, that's before they start giving reasons not to trust them that I see in plain light.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

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  • VooDoo_PapaVooDoo_Papa Somewhere on a beach on the east coast, FLPosts: 883Member Uncommon

    I'll take a cash shop any day over an RNG lock box system.

    cash shops, IMO are expected in MMO's. Final Fantasy XIV is the only one that comes to mind that doesnt have one (and is a sub game). Why does this surprise any of you?

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  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member

    Originally posted by umcorian

    That's fair - especially the part where you said I'm not too excited in the first place. But let's be reasonable: are people really still falling for hype these days? Do I have to *really* be excited for a game before it's even out before my opinion is valid? I was going to buy the game. That should be enough to get me a seat at the table of this discussion.

    The fastest way they could close my open mind is to have a full pay-to-play subscription model that sells mechanical advantages - no matter how slight or how temporary - at a premium. That's a mountain for me - abso-fucking-lutely. 

    I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid.  I'm just pointing out that the more excited someone is for the game, the less likely they are to see this as an issue even if they don't like it.  If I had to guess, based on the success seen from adding cash shops in other games, they are probably going to make substantially more from decisions like this than they lose from disgruntled people who don't want RMTs in their sub games.  And in the end, that is their job, to make as much money from the game as possible.  

    I think in the long run, players who decide to be extremely rigid when it comes to issues like this are going to eventually reach the point where they have to either bend or leave the genre entirely, because there just don't seem to be enough of them for the developers to care if they do leave.  And it is starting to look like that point is coming sooner rather than later.

    Originally posted by Randallt3mp

    So where do you draw the line then? Or do you?  What would it take from them for you to say hey "this isn't right, i dont like this."  Don't give me some crazy exaggerated crap either.  Give me a reasonable situation on a spectrum. 

    The problem is they aren't going to suddenly start slaughtering kittens on twitch (obv exaggerated).  They will gradually see what they can get away with and before you know it you'll be spending alot more that you originally though you would have and things will have changed alot more than you expected.

    Honestly?  There are plenty of things where I would say "I don't like this," but I doubt I would ever say "This isn't right."  To me, unless someone is forcing people to do something against their will, right and wrong don't enter into it, only like and dislike.  If enough people dislike something they might change their minds, but I honestly doubt that the level of outrage over a sub-par horse that is only useful for 10-20 levels is going to be that high.

    And no, I won't suddenly be spending a lot more, because I'm not a gambler or an addict.  I look at each transaction individually, and decide whether the cost is worth the benefit.  And I know you asked for specifics, but I'm going to give you a generality instead; if it ever reached the point where I had to spend more money than the subscription just to enjoy the game, and the amount more money they were asking was worth more to me than the fun I would get, I would dislike that, and I would stop playing.  But I wouldn't rage on a forum, or accuse anyone of lying, or try to frame my personal distaste as a matter of High Moral Principle.  I would just go do something else with my time.

    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    And please, read the post before you reply.  You obviously did not because I never started "with the myth of the Pay-To-Win cash shop."  

    You said you didn't care if they added a "full blown Pay-To-Win cash shop."  Something which doesn't appear to actually exist in any major game, so bringing up "Pay-to-Win" at all is just hyperbole.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Most MMO's offer a CE that includes a mount these days, ZoS are no different. However ZoS CE comes with an exclusive race that has exclusive passive and that irks me a little tbh, but I wanted the mount. My plan was to upgrade to imp edition at launch, but I wasn't exactly happy about supporting the race thing. This announcement means I can get a mount without supporting them selling a race as day one DLC, so it actually makes me pretty happy
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    Whats more concerning is that the imperial race is locked behind that cash shop too.

    You should get that with your sub fee, There is no excuse other than greed why this should not be.

    As for the horse, w/e.

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon

    maybe this has been said here (I haven't seen it yet but it could be here): how is this worse than buying the imperial Edition?

    I mean, "buy the imperial edition" and get all sorts of stuff and a horse. Or, if you don't want "all sorts of stuff" then you can just buy the horse for less than the imperial edition.

    My thought is that if you are against this then you are against the Imperial Edition as well (which may be).

    And of course there is the obvious (we aren't going to have a cash shop) which is even a larger issue.

     

  • umcorianumcorian Boston, MAPosts: 466Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Personally it's not enough to turn me away from the game, but it's certainly enough to ruin any level of trust going in, which hurts long term appeal. I mentioned in another thread the imperial edition was enough of a slap, considering it's my go to choice of race in TES, I had already come to grips with them being unavailable, then they started selling them. Now they completely change their tune on purchasable items. FOr me it's not the existence of a cash shop, it's the 180; I have enough of a problem placing trust in any company, that's before they start giving reasons not to trust them that I see in plain light.

    It left a sour taste in my mouth, but I let the whole Imperial race thing slide because I reckoned Imperials would be balanced with other races. It was, in theory, cosmetic. A big grey area, but I was willing to overlook it. 

    I admit, it was news to me that a 17k gold mount was being handed to people who forked over more money today. I thought it was something they just added to the cash-shop, when in reality, they already let players pay-to-win with the Imperial Edition... even if if only until players who paid less $$ earned 17k gold or whatever. 

    That's just not gonna fly for a lot of people. 

  • Vaen09Vaen09 Morgantown, WVPosts: 6Member

    Considering that they gave Imperials white horses, I'm not really sure how this news update is hate-worthy. That status quo has already been set the minute preorder info came out.  Maybe they just offered the opportunity to those who were complaining about Imps getting a horse or what not.. you know, like what they said on the interview. They're not going to hand them out for free, obviously; After all, the imps paid for them.. that wouldn't be equitable.

     

    Now if you're really worried about that mechanical advantage in AvA, consider this: A basic horse grants 15% move speed.. Retreating Maneuver grants 33, Boundless Storm (sorc skill) grants 30 (I think?). It would take that horse 48 days to be as fast as you (if you rolled sorc, at least.. dunno for the other 3 classes) If you really wanted to chase him down, you could do so easily. He won't be turning very quick, he won't be using any skills while mounted, and he certainly won't be able to defend himself until you get your opening.

     

    That is, if you really wanted to chase him down, or escape, you would build yourself towards doing so, and not wait 48 days for a horse to do it for you. Unless you really just want to complain about something.

     

    and /in before ad hominem because I'm a 1 poster imp :P

  • ZadawnZadawn SPosts: 651Member Common
    The game's f2p by august this year.

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  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    maybe this has been said here (I haven't seen it yet but it could be here): how is this worse than buying the imperial Edition?

    I mean, "buy the imperial edition" and get all sorts of stuff and a horse. Or, if you don't want "all sorts of stuff" then you can just buy the horse for less than the imperial edition.

    My thought is that if you are against this then you are against the Imperial Edition as well (which may be).

    And of course there is the obvious (we aren't going to have a cash shop) which is even a larger issue.

    It does seem a little mind-boggling that several posters who expressed no problem with either the Imperial Edition or the post-launch ability to pay $20 in the "services" shop to upgrade to the Imperial Edition seem shocked and appalled now that they have essentially taken the Imperial Horse, slapped a different skin on it, and offered to charge less.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • PpiperPpiper Horsham, PAPosts: 648Member Uncommon

    This guy is $10.99

     

    photo mr_ed_tv_still_a_p_zpsa07ff389.jpg

  • umcorianumcorian Boston, MAPosts: 466Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vaen09

    Considering that they gave Imperials white horses, I'm not really sure how this news update is hate-worthy. That status quo has already been set the minute preorder info came out.  Maybe they just offered the opportunity to those who were complaining about Imps getting a horse or what not.. you know, like what they said on the interview. They're not going to hand them out for free, obviously; After all, the imps paid for them.. that wouldn't be equitable.

     

    Now if you're really worried about that mechanical advantage in AvA, consider this: A basic horse grants 15% move speed.. Retreating Maneuver grants 33, Boundless Storm (sorc skill) grants 30 (I think?). It would take that horse 48 days to be as fast as you (if you rolled sorc, at least.. dunno for the other 3 classes) If you really wanted to chase him down, you could do so easily. He won't be turning very quick, he won't be using any skills while mounted, and he certainly won't be able to defend himself until you get your opening.

     

    That is, if you really wanted to chase him down, or escape, you would build yourself towards doing so, and not wait 48 days for a horse to do it for you. Unless you really just want to complain about something.

     

    and /in before ad hominem because I'm a 1 poster imp :P

    You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. 

    Me: "This is not okay because it gives a mechanical advantage."
    You: "It is okay because the mechanical advantage you're getting is not always going to be useful because of X, Y and Z."

    You've acknowledged that a mechanical advantage is being given in exchange for real money. You're trying to convince me it's not a big deal.

    I don't care how big a deal it is - I'm not playing a subscription game that sells mechanical advantages (no matter how small) for a premium. End of story.

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    maybe this has been said here (I haven't seen it yet but it could be here): how is this worse than buying the imperial Edition?

    I mean, "buy the imperial edition" and get all sorts of stuff and a horse. Or, if you don't want "all sorts of stuff" then you can just buy the horse for less than the imperial edition.

    My thought is that if you are against this then you are against the Imperial Edition as well (which may be).

    And of course there is the obvious (we aren't going to have a cash shop) which is even a larger issue.

    It does seem a little mind-boggling that several posters who expressed no problem with either the Imperial Edition or the post-launch ability to pay $20 in the "services" shop to upgrade to the Imperial Edition seem shocked and appalled now that they have essentially taken the Imperial Horse, slapped a different skin on it, and offered to charge less.

    That's because most people expect great cash shop kind of crap inside of a CE or expansion.   What they don't expect is a Cash Shop even if it has one horse in it, because they were told there was going to be no cash shop. 

     

    I think in the end it wont matter, my ass is still playing because the fact of the matter is, a game like this only comes out every 10 years, and I'll take it and take it some more, no matter what they add to this game.  Even if it goes free to play.  Its still worth the hours and money I spend on it compared to all the other games out there.

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg

     

    Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

    And please, read the post before you reply.  You obviously did not because I never started "with the myth of the Pay-To-Win cash shop."  

    You said you didn't care if they added a "full blown Pay-To-Win cash shop."  Something which doesn't appear to actually exist in any major game, so bringing up "Pay-to-Win" at all is just hyperbole.

     

    Not really no.  Hyperbole is an exaggeration.  My intent was to convey my message literally exactly as I have written it.  If you read anything other than precisely what was written you are in error.  

    It was not my intent to convey any hidden or deeper meaning.

  • VooDoo_PapaVooDoo_Papa Somewhere on a beach on the east coast, FLPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    maybe this has been said here (I haven't seen it yet but it could be here): how is this worse than buying the imperial Edition?

    I mean, "buy the imperial edition" and get all sorts of stuff and a horse. Or, if you don't want "all sorts of stuff" then you can just buy the horse for less than the imperial edition.

    My thought is that if you are against this then you are against the Imperial Edition as well (which may be).

    And of course there is the obvious (we aren't going to have a cash shop) which is even a larger issue.

     

     

    its a valid point. 

    at the end of the day every dollar you spend on a game goes towards a virtual item to some extent.

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