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Expansion=P2W?

laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon

Here's a conundrum for you:

 

When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.

 

P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing

Discuss

 

 

"If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

«134

Comments

  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member
    I have thought deeply on this, no.
  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    For theme park style games, expansions should be thought of as sequels ... they're a whole new game, just with a blurry boundary between one game and the next.

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    May as well just call any game that isn't free "pay to win" I suppose it's correct on a very technical level but it's clearly not what most people mean by the term.

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    Developer sanctioned cheating w/ paid permit.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

     

    P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

     

    Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

     

    Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

    Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

    Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

  • TbauTbau Chicago, ILPosts: 401Member
    Originally posted by laserit

    Here's a conundrum for you:

    When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.

    P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing

    Discuss

    That would mean just buying the original is P2W because it allows you to play, while others cannot.

     

    Logical fallacies do not make conundrums.

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by zekeofev
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

     

    P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

     

    Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

     

    Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

    Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

    Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

    I'm kind of stirring up the pot image

     

    I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Expansions are not P2W content. 

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • zekeofevzekeofev Mesa, AZPosts: 233Member
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by zekeofev
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

     

    P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

     

    Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

     

    Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

    Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

    Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

    I'm kind of stirring up the pot image

     

    I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

    Still waiting on your answers to my questions.

     

    I mean, everything is a little bit pay to win. I mean your time to play the game, your experience on similar games before the game comes out. If you really want to stretch out the definition of P2W I could say practically every game was P2W. Paying money to access a beta is a grey area that some people would say gives an advantage and some would be fine with).

     

    Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

     

    1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

     

    2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

     

    I think most people would agree with 1 and 2.

     

    But so how is an xpac that is optional NOT pay to win? I would argue it is population adoption rate. If most people are playing with the same level of power so that there is not an advantage then the game is not pay 2 win.

     

    Now what percentage is that? 99 percent? 51 percent? Food for thought.

     

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by zekeofev

    Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

     

    1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

     

    2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

    To  me it's only P2W if the main reason anyone would buy the x-pac is for the good items. Like "This expansion adds one monster type but you can also get a +10 sword of awesome available nowhere else in the game!" is pretty  P2W but if they're adding a whole new zone and one of the bosses drops the new sword it's just new content.

     

    The $1000 expansion is only a problem because it's stupid for the company to charge a price that 99% of their customers wouldn't pay. Are you arguing that expansions should be included in the sub price? If so we probably will have to get used to paying more than $15 per month. No one works for free and they need money for maintenance/servers/customer support not just for new content creation.

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by FinalFikus

    If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

    why?

    Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 835Member Uncommon

    Expansion

    = game become ruin with new change

    = can't play old version

    = have to spend more than monthly

     

    But not

    = pay 2 win

    Win what in first place ?

    You can't continue to play without pay expansion .

    It more like buy a new game or pay for new DLC than pay to win

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by zekeofev
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by zekeofev
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    I have bought new pc hardware few months ago, now I have better FPS than others. P2W.

     

    /turd

    What's the definition of P2W that people use on this site?

     

    Paying for content that gives you an advantage over other player's

     

    Well sure to some extent they are pay to win. However, it is just like the person who cannot afford the monthly sub. they are at a disadvantage.

     

    P2W is when a player can spend more money for an advantage. But most of the content that players are going to be doing in an expansion is going to be the expansion content. When everyone buys the xpac, it is not an advantage.

     

    Yes I think there is a problem with lots of xpacs and each one offering a power increase....it might as well be a cash shop then. But an occasional xpac that most of the population buys is not P2W....it almost becomes part of the subscription fee.

     

    Side questions for you so I understand your viewpoint OP:

    Is owning both games (and perhaps multiple handhelds) of a Pokemon generation P2W?

    Is buying more latteral power P2W? (examples: buying more champions in league of legends, buying more character slots)

    I'm kind of stirring up the pot image

     

    I'm putting this in an MMORPG viewpoint (especially P2P) The way I look at it. If the MMO company gave the player a way to grind  level's and skill's for the class's he has had access to, without giving access to  the new content, this would clear up any kind of argument.

    Still waiting on your answers to my questions.

     

    I mean, everything is a little bit pay to win. I mean your time to play the game, your experience on similar games before the game comes out. If you really want to stretch out the definition of P2W I could say practically every game was P2W. Paying money to access a beta is a grey area that some people would say gives an advantage and some would be fine with).

     

    Ultimately what is significant enough to be P2W is ultimately subjective.

     

    1: If a company made a xpac at an unreasonable price point (lets say, 1000 dollars) and it offered a power increase not attainable by players who do not have the xpac then it is P2W.

     

    2: If a game offered 1000 different xpacs that had small stacking power to the player that had more xpacs the game would also be pay to win.

     

    I think most people would agree with 1 and 2.

     

    But so how is an xpac that is optional NOT pay to win? I would argue it is population adoption rate. If most people are playing with the same level of power so that there is not an advantage then the game is not pay 2 win.

     

    Now what percentage is that? 99 percent? 51 percent? Food for thought.

     

     

    Here's some answer's for your question's

     

    Pokémon: I'm almost 50 I've never played but my grown up kids played it when they were young. Does buying both games give you an advantage? Is one more powerful then the other? I you have both does it boost your Pokemons to be more powerful then if you just own one?. I'm sorry I have no answer for Pokémon.

     

    League of Legends: Never played it, not into Moba's. If you can only get better champion's by purchasing them, It's P2W. If you can earn them in game with no money then it's not P2W IMHO

     

    1: What does the price have to do with anything? What's chump change for one is completely unaffordable for another.

     

    2: I can see what your getting at, 1000's is quite a number but where's the threshold?  is 10 too many?  25? 50? 100? 500?

     

    Again my view is if a player who does not purchase an Xpack can in some form (grind or whatever) attain max level and a complete skill list, one could not argue P2W. They could still compete with other player's

     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by laserit
     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

     

    You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus

    If a game must charge, it must charge the same for all people to remain a game.

    why?

    Would it make more money to get the whales to pay more?

    Sure, but that is a device to get money from whales. Not a game. Unless there are some examples GAMES elsewhere in the world that have similar rules and is accepted as a game that I cant think of. Im not trying to hard though.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by laserit
     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

     

    You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

     

    Really? Anyone want the developer to grief you back 5-10 levels instead  of player vs player stuctures? Besides the pve only guys. Or implementing a new crafting system that offer alternative advancement?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by laserit
     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

     

    You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

     

    How am I arguing for a game to remain static?  Did I argue for no new power or skills?  No... nothing of the sort

     

    No I'm asking the question:

     

    If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?

     

    I'll mark you down for "no it doesn't"

     

     

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAPosts: 1,602Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laserit

    Here's a conundrum for you:

     

    When you purchase an expansion for real money you are purchasing a definite competitive advantage over someone who will not or can not purchase said expansion.

     

    P2P, B2P or F2P it equates to the same thing

    Discuss

     

     

    Of course. All forms of P2P are 100% P2W. All games that take money for stuff, are P2W at some level. The real question is what level of tolerance too P2W do you have?

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laserit

    If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?

     

     

    In a non-consensual PvP game: of course


    In a normal  PvE game:  you should be cooperating with other players and not competing with them so the issue is moot.

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by laserit
     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

     

    You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

     

    How am I arguing for a game to remain static?  Did I argue for no new power or skills?  No... nothing of the sort

     

    No I'm asking the question:

     

    If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?

     

    I'll mark you down for "no it doesn't"

     

     

    I'll use WoW in my example as to how an expansion is not pay to win.

    Blizzard released all major class and talent changes with the major pre-expansion patch, and starting with MoP they also dropped the requirement that people purchased the expansion to access the new races.

    The major point of purchasing the expansion pack was new areas to explore and new end game content for the current level cap (which could be argued that it's no different than a map pack in a fps game). The old end game content for the previous level cap is still available for those who can't afford the expansion. Thus, in essence they still have a progression raiding system available as well as pvp.

    The new content is unlocked with the expansion purchase, but this does not guarantee that you are going to see or use all content available (hardmode progression raiding is a great example as a vast minority of wow players actually accomplish getting hardmodes on farm status). It just makes said content available. Thus, you still can't "win the game" without actually playing the game.

    Honestly, an expansion is basically just a bunch of smaller DLC's wrapped up into one larger package.

    TL;DR: Naaaaaaah.

  • Siris23Siris23 Minneapolis, MNPosts: 217Member Uncommon

    By this logic any game that has a box price is P2W.

    After all there's no way to win if you can't play

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,951Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Torik

    Originally posted by laserit

    If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?

     

     

    In a non-consensual PvP game: of course


    In a normal  PvE game:  you should be cooperating with other players and not competing with them so the issue is moot.

    Originally posted by Kaneth

    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by laserit
     

    I would argue an Xpack as it is now, should give purchaser's new content, new classes or whatever. But it should not leave player's who do not purchase at a disadvantage level and skill wise.

     

     

     

    Why not? You pay for the game as it exists at launch. There's an assumption that an MMO is going to grow from what it is at launch and most players are happy to pay that price. Those who are not are not entitled to it for free.

     

    You're asking for an MMO to remain static just to please the very small minority of players who can't afford a $30 expansion and yes, you say "well you can add new areas just not new powers or skills or gear" but we all know that increased character progression is the main thing most players want out of expansions. I doubt I'd even buy an expansion that didn't offer any way for my character to progress.

     

    How am I arguing for a game to remain static?  Did I argue for no new power or skills?  No... nothing of the sort

     

    No I'm asking the question:

     

    If an existing player has to pay money in order to remain competitive, (not be one shotted and have a chance for survival) does this make a game P2W?

     

    I'll mark you down for "no it doesn't"

     

     

    I'll use WoW in my example as to how an expansion is not pay to win.

    Blizzard released all major class and talent changes with the major pre-expansion patch, and starting with MoP they also dropped the requirement that people purchased the expansion to access the new races.

    The major point of purchasing the expansion pack was new areas to explore and new end game content for the current level cap (which could be argued that it's no different than a map pack in a fps game). The old end game content for the previous level cap is still available for those who can't afford the expansion. Thus, in essence they still have a progression raiding system available as well as pvp.

    The new content is unlocked with the expansion purchase, but this does not guarantee that you are going to see or use all content available (hardmode progression raiding is a great example as a vast minority of wow players actually accomplish getting hardmodes on farm status). It just makes said content available. Thus, you still can't "win the game" without actually playing the game.

    Honestly, an expansion is basically just a bunch of smaller DLC's wrapped up into one larger package.

    TL;DR: Naaaaaaah.

    I can pretty much agree with both your viewpoints:

     

    It's pretty moot on a pve server but gets a bit murky on a pvp server. If I made the decision's of an MMORPG, all levels and skills would be accessible to all player's. Only the new content (except battle grounds) would be gated to purchaser's of the latest Xpac.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

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