Themeparks exist like they do in RL...people enjoy them, and they're best enjoyed with more friends and family.
That's how/why WoW is successful -- you don't play WoW by yourself, you play with others you know. You stay playing WoW because those you know play it.
Other MMOs don't stress playing together as much, which in turn doesn't keep players in the game playing.
Huh? One of the primary reasons, if not *the* primary reason that WoW reached millions when previous games had been lucky to get a couple hundred thousand was because it was the first MMO that *didn't* require you to constantly be grouped with other people. Most of the content in the vanilla game, and all of it's expansions, can be soloed. Just because there are some people in WoW who like to group doesn't mean the design of the game itself encourages grouping more than the design of other games does.
WoW can be summed up...
Huge popular online franchise with legions of fans.
Popular cult like following of developer.
Genre that's addictive to new players.
Online popular gaming network to pool virgin players to pull from.
Make genre easy to play and not clunky monoliths the older MMORPGs were.
Add in cool marketing.
Chemical X.
Add that up and you get 12 million subs.
I think SWG could have been a game that could have done what WoW did. It was just badly optimized and not modern enough in the UI. I think the genre would be better off if it did. I think the PvE sandbox with themeparks inside of it is the best mainstream route for the genre.
I agree. The biggest problem SWG had was being incompetently managed by $OE.
A lot of things played against SWG and it wasn't just the mistakes SOE made.
1. The game launched 1-2 years to early for mass approval. The average household wasn't ready for a always on games when SWG launched, by the time WoW launched DSL and Cable modems where much more common.
2. The game really didn't launch is a great state. WoW had it's issues but it was at least playable without getting overly frustrated.
3. The game at launch didn't give people what they really wanted which was to be able to jump in and play as Jedi day one.
4. For all it's depth the game was complex and slow to start. It really took someone with a decent attention span and willingness to keep at it to really pick up the game.
All in all SWG at launch was never going to be a game to get 10 million subs and even if it launched today with the same mechanics and better graphics it wouldn't even come close to that. SOE tried to make it more of a mass acceptable game with the NGE but even that fell short. NGE would have worked better if it had gone with a F2P relaunch or maybe as part of a major expansion but back when that happened F2P wasn't something western developers even looked at and trying to get your game box for a several year old game into stores front and center for what was a patch was a uphill battle.
I agree with a lot of this, except... NGE was part of an expansion as was CU.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There are no sandbox mmorpgs, only themeparks with varying amounts of activities. Always been that way. Took me a while to realize that. But I'm a much more contended gamer because of it. I think some people have an unshakable standard of what what an mmo is supposed to be based on what they thought they could be when they played those old mmos. So now they want something that never existed because of what their mind thought should have happened based on the potential of what never did.
I can understand why a person might be flat out sick and tired of theme park games and desperately yearn for more of a sandbox type of gameplay. But here's what I don't get:
-Why do people think that in order for their type of game to be made, theme park games have to go away?
-Why do people assume that if they DID manage to somehow blink theme park games out of existence, that the sandbox game(s) they've been longing for would be created in their place? That's like thinking that if Justin Bieber got hit by a bus, that he'd be replaced by someone who doesn't suck. Sorry, but history doesn't play that out.
Just like dreaming of the Biebs getting flattened by a bus(hold on a sec... lemme visualize that for a bit), this whole anger/hate thing toward a type of game is pointless and unhealthy. They're here, and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. And should they go away in the future, they'll probably be replaced by something even LESS like what you want. Folks probably thought boy singers couldn't get more vapid than Nick Carter back in the day. Guess how that turned out?
The best thing anyone can do is find the games that do take risks and support them. And talk about what's great about THEM rather than just banging on about games you don't like.
I don't want themeparks to go away completely, I just want something sandboxy to play in between, and it seems my wish has fallen on deaf industry ears in that regard, because it seems the only sandbox anyone recommends is EVE, and I already tried that.
The genre is still new and expanding. In fact, are there any more MOBA released other than that two?
The blizz one is on its way. There is a DC comic one. It is like asking if there are FPS successful only after the release of Wolfenstein and Doom.
There are a bunch of them Smite is one and a bunch of others I've vaguely heard of but I'm sure you can find a list of somewhere if you are interested. It's the latest fad genre (that's not saying the games themselves are bad although they're not really my thing).
The numbers are far from that of FPS, or MMORPGs ... the MOBA genre is still in its infancy. Sure we probably will see a lot more in the next 2 years and then we can say whether it is a fad or not.
There's nothing inherently wrong with the themepark design. The problem is ever since WoW's success, all AAA MMOs are THE SAME THEMEPARK, with the exact same formula and 'standards'. That's getting really old and it's making people hate the genre.
Kudos to SOE for being the only big company to have the balls to at least try to do things differently with EQ next.
GW2 does things differently - not that it gets them anywhere but they tried. The problem with 'new ideas' is that sometimes they don't work. The more change you bring into your model the more risk you add to the situation. Game designers know what works - so the more you deviate from that the more likely you are to fall flat on your face.
The risks are magnified with the very expensive production costs for MMOs. When you are spending 200 million on a game you want to get it right. You don't want to end up with the video game equivalent of John Carter - and the risks that movie took were small.
The easymode themepark model is surviving so well because it is moving on to different platforms. On PC's it is starting to look very creaky, while versions of themparks on mobiles look new.
Originally posted by Scot The easymode themepark model is surviving so well because it is moving on to different platforms. On PC's it is starting to look very creaky, while versions of themparks on mobiles look new.
may be they should learn from D3 and put a difficulty slider in ... no more easy mode.
How is the OP not an NDA violation. I'm shocked this thread is still living.
The themepark is alive and well and doesn't seem to be slowing down. This is mostly because nobody can agree what a sandbox game is anyway.
uh? What does themepark alive or not have to do with sandbox?
Even if themeparks are all going down, devs don't have to make sandboxes .. they can make MOBA, share world shooter .. or many new online game design instead of the old and tried sandbox idea.
Cool man - glad this game will make some people happy. Personally I think plenty of people are going to discover they don't really want a sandbox mmo. But hey between that and landmark its nice people will get an opportunity to find out that making games is less fun then playing them..
Originally posted by GuyClinch Cool man - glad this game will make some people happy. Personally I think plenty of people are going to discover they don't really want a sandbox mmo. But hey between that and landmark its nice people will get an opportunity to find out that making games is less fun then playing them..
Sandbox and themepark are not mutually exclusive. I am playing Archeage right now which is a themepark that has sandbox in it. While its a bit sloppy I love the different experience it gives even if its a bit 1997 UO on roids mixed with a generic Asian themepark.
Originally posted by GuyClinch Cool man - glad this game will make some people happy. Personally I think plenty of people are going to discover they don't really want a sandbox mmo. But hey between that and landmark its nice people will get an opportunity to find out that making games is less fun then playing them..
Yeh ... i don't play games to make entertainment. I play games to be entertained.
And i prefer professional content than some user made stuff which usually is crap.
Comments
I agree with a lot of this, except... NGE was part of an expansion as was CU.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There are no sandbox mmorpgs, only themeparks with varying amounts of activities. Always been that way. Took me a while to realize that. But I'm a much more contended gamer because of it. I think some people have an unshakable standard of what what an mmo is supposed to be based on what they thought they could be when they played those old mmos. So now they want something that never existed because of what their mind thought should have happened based on the potential of what never did.
I can understand why a person might be flat out sick and tired of theme park games and desperately yearn for more of a sandbox type of gameplay. But here's what I don't get:
-Why do people think that in order for their type of game to be made, theme park games have to go away?
-Why do people assume that if they DID manage to somehow blink theme park games out of existence, that the sandbox game(s) they've been longing for would be created in their place? That's like thinking that if Justin Bieber got hit by a bus, that he'd be replaced by someone who doesn't suck. Sorry, but history doesn't play that out.
Just like dreaming of the Biebs getting flattened by a bus(hold on a sec... lemme visualize that for a bit), this whole anger/hate thing toward a type of game is pointless and unhealthy. They're here, and they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. And should they go away in the future, they'll probably be replaced by something even LESS like what you want. Folks probably thought boy singers couldn't get more vapid than Nick Carter back in the day. Guess how that turned out?
The best thing anyone can do is find the games that do take risks and support them. And talk about what's great about THEM rather than just banging on about games you don't like.
Well, there's at least 2 of us.
But having said that Themepark's have their place, we just need more variety in genre and MMO type and less generic crap.
The numbers are far from that of FPS, or MMORPGs ... the MOBA genre is still in its infancy. Sure we probably will see a lot more in the next 2 years and then we can say whether it is a fad or not.
GW2 does things differently - not that it gets them anywhere but they tried. The problem with 'new ideas' is that sometimes they don't work. The more change you bring into your model the more risk you add to the situation. Game designers know what works - so the more you deviate from that the more likely you are to fall flat on your face.
The risks are magnified with the very expensive production costs for MMOs. When you are spending 200 million on a game you want to get it right. You don't want to end up with the video game equivalent of John Carter - and the risks that movie took were small.
may be they should learn from D3 and put a difficulty slider in ... no more easy mode.
How is the OP not an NDA violation. I'm shocked this thread is still living.
The themepark is alive and well and doesn't seem to be slowing down. This is mostly because nobody can agree what a sandbox game is anyway.
uh? What does themepark alive or not have to do with sandbox?
Even if themeparks are all going down, devs don't have to make sandboxes .. they can make MOBA, share world shooter .. or many new online game design instead of the old and tried sandbox idea.
SANDBOX AHOY!!!
lol
In all seriousness though this will be the king http://lifeisfeudal.com/
It speaks for itself with some well balanced and thought out skill caps, alignment system and to much else to put here.
Closed alpha starts this week and I am really looking forward to this.
FINALLY...
Life IS Feudal
Sandbox and themepark are not mutually exclusive. I am playing Archeage right now which is a themepark that has sandbox in it. While its a bit sloppy I love the different experience it gives even if its a bit 1997 UO on roids mixed with a generic Asian themepark.
Yeh ... i don't play games to make entertainment. I play games to be entertained.
And i prefer professional content than some user made stuff which usually is crap.