The only way to make crafting gear superior to all other gear is to have stat ranges depending on materials so there is some kind of time sink to getting better max stats. e.g. SWG... OR when you die your items die / get looted. e.g. EVE
Otherwise you'd craft a legendary and be done. As it is in the PTS, the set items are very expensive and take a long time to get the points. That is the time sink currently in place.
ESO crafting really isn't that spectacular, but it's better than some MMO's. If you want a deep crafting system that produces the best gear, you have to have sandbox systems in place to allow the shift in time sink.
He made a legendary weapon but only an Epic enchant he says, still a good example to show that enchants have the same kind of upgrade system that armor or weapons do.
he states this at 6:03 of the video.
I'm seeing logical points on both sides. It's one thing to theoretically say Crafters can make and enchant the best gear. But then, it's another to say, "Yeah, but everyone in beta is wearing mostly dropped gear." Well, OK, but why? What's the reason for what most players are wearing and will this reason change as the game wears on or in this case, the meta.
I don't care about lower level gear, I want to know what the meta is going to be on this issue. What is the reality going to be when the majority of the game is at cap and players are starting to settle into the gear they want, what will they be wearing and why?
That is what I want to know.
Rarity. The Psijic order is, I am guessing, only a few thousand strong, if that. And the legendaries are really rare. We don't really have much of an economy, at least not one that is anywhere as robust as the release economy will be. And we all know our characters are temporary. It take a special kind of person to hunt down and gather all the legendary items they need to upgrade, by themselves, for each piece of gear they want to upgrade. Never mind researching all the traits (researching them all was supposed to be 2.4 years? Roughly? Without spending master level points on research time reduction).
I am not that kind of person. And I am willing to bet you, 90% of us aren't those kind of people either.
Alot of us are also minmaxers. And one thing minmaxers are not..is diverse in their builds.
The best set-bonuses in Veteran/PvP content does not come from ANY discovered crafting researches. The only crafting class worth even caring about is enchanter, you do not need to train any of the armor crafts extensively because they can simply promote to legendary given enough reagents. You're not going to wear crafted gear in veteran content.
You must get the drops for the set-bonuses then you get it promoted, and finally can enchant it, unless the enchantment you want is drop-unique... good luck farming. Ultimately you have to get the drop first because crafting set-bonuses are trash. The armor is ultimately statistically identical, as the devs said, but the bonuses are what you care about and the crafted bonuses are complete garbage.
And there was no reason for them to nerf leveling across the board and force us to grind through their cliche story. The game was fine before when we could level however we wanted, now we have no option.
please link pictures to dropped vs crafted bonuses. Simply stating crafting bonuses are trash is subjective and does little to support your view. What were the bonuses prior to patch and after in relation to dropped? What is the frequency of dropped sets?
Lets deal with objective facts rather than opinion based on literally no evidence. How much was XP reduced per individual kill versus grouping? How much was exploration xp nerfed? What was the farming progression speed?
You are trying to portray these issues as simplistic when they are not. If the changes are as extreme as you and others claim on here, where is the proof and overwhelming feedback? Very few testers are coming out about this. Why if these changes are so profound it makes the game not worth buying?
^^
No matter how much Chicken Little flailed about and said it was, the sky wasn't actually falling. I see the same happening here. A lot of drama hinging on one guy in beta with an opinion.
Ok, I never go this deep into explaining something, but its needed here. I am going to give you the full and final argument to be made, why both drops and crafting are the best gear in game and not one better then the other. Here is the original question that was asked of Paul Sage that the OP bases his conclusions on.
Question by player:
In end game on ESO, will the Crafting gear be equivlent or better then dungeon drops?
Most MMO's gear crafting is only good to an extent which gets replaced quickly to the pve enthusiasts.
Will the reward of say Legendary or Epic crafts be a notable difference then a drop anyone can get from a dungeon?
Answer given by Paul Sage:
Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint. Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor. However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops. Crafters can always improve those items which have unique enchantments. Legendary items do not drop...
Paul Sage first goes into answering this question by saying "Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating" which brings me to my first point.
Undisputable Point One. Keywords "EQUAL" and "Quality Rating" Crafted gear of EQUAL LEVEL AND EQUAL QUALITY RATING, means just that, a peice of gear that has a raiting and level of the same. When developers make a game, they obviously have levels on a set if gear, but along with those levels, they have a QUALITY RATING, these Ratings determin how much stats can be put on a piece of gear as to not make it more powerful, which will make it a higher Quality Raiting. Some end game items in other games have QUALITY RATINGS much higher then thier level, which is used to state how powerful the stats on that piece of gear is. This should be the first sign that you should realize that crafting gear is on an EQUAL RAITING as DROP GEAR. Indeed he compares end game crafting items and end game dungeon drops in the same QUALITY RATING TIERS.
Paul Sage then goes into telling the diffearnces between the two kinds of gear that have EQUAL Level and Quality Raiting" He does not say one is BETTER thhe the other, because he has already stated that they are EQUAL in level AND QUALITY RAITING.
He states that strong points of crafted goods, "Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint." he then states what he means by numerical standpoint, "Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor." Then he goes on to state the Unique differance in some drop gears, "However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops." Which is appealing to people who love drops, showing that there is variety in dungeons and crafted, and that not everything is the same type, not that its more POWERFUL then each other. Otherwise he would not have said EQUAL QUALITY RAITING.
Then he finishes by talking about how these items can be upgraded to legendary because they do not drop as legendary, they may drop as FINE to EPIC QUALITY RATING. Both Crafted and drop items can be upgraded in game to LEGENDARY QUALITY RAITING.
I did not want to explain this all in this great of detail that would seem already simple to understand to most gamers, but I figured it needs to be since some people still just dont get it.
Next read Golden Tigers post and see what has been taken out of context and what has not, I'll try to put a post together to point out why the GOLDEN TIGER is not the AUTHORITY on END game gear and shouldnt even be listened to, not that hes bad, but the fact that he misunderstood and uses gear thats half finished to make his point. HE is comparing GEAR OF UNEQUAL QUALITY RATING and calling it EQUAL QUALITY RAITING. Thats where I have a problem with Golden Tiger's post, and why I stand by the DEV's WORDS.
Originally posted by CazNeergDungeon does not necessarily mean raid.
Yes, it certainly means raid, dungeon size makes no difference.
I am very curious where you pull those numbers from as mainstream design does not support your theory at all - game developers would not be making dungeons/raids if it did not keep players paying.
Unless you are capable to support your claim with some rationale but your opinion, I call it false.
@knotwood. Ok, you have a undisputed point #1. Equal level and Equal Quality rating crafted will be better.
So: Does he say anywhere that the game at release will not have dropped gear of higher level? It doesn't sound like he added that restriction. He went out of his way with a qualified statement but avoided qualifying some interesting bits. So while the max crafted gear might have level 10,000 is there something that prevents them from creating drops of level 10,001 (or 20,000 for that matter). To be clear, if crafted only goes to 10000 and dropped can be 10001+, there is your inequality.
So: Did he make any statements that post release the game might not add dropped gear of higer level?
It sounds like legal-speech he is using. It is how he answered it that is funny. Given the question you could say yes, no, it depends, I don't know or {some crafty statement that allows players to read it anyway they want.}.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The problem with crafting is there is no skill involved only time sync's. Defeating some challenge on the other hand should in theory have some skill requirement. It doesn't seem fair to allow gear equivalence of time and skill.
That’s exactly what they did: numerically they’re equal for their very base stat like armor amount or damage,
Knotwood: Wrong fact #1, they are not equal numerically in stats like armor and damage, as Paul Sage has pointed out that crafted will have better Weapon damage and Armor when compared to a drop of EQUAL LEVEL AND EQUAL QUALITY RAITING.
but the unique effects are far more powerful on dropped loot.
Knotwood: Is this really more powerful? Or did golden tiger perceive it as more powerful based on the fact the crafted item he compared it to was indeed an UNEQUAL QUALITY RATING Enchantment on it or even something he just did not prefer to have on it for his build? After all he failed to get the higher damage and armor differences Paul Sage has stated with just the crafted and drop weapons and armor numerical values.
Your only real uses for crafting are food/potions, and upgrading dropped items (color quality), at endgame now. A legendary (orange) VR10 weapon has the exact same base damage whether it’s a purple that was upgraded from a drop, or crafted (and upgraded)
Knotwood: WRONG FACT #2 Legendary items are "YELLOW" not Orange like he states, WRONG FACT #3 Legendary weapons do NOT have the exact same damage of EQUAL LEVEL and EQUAL RATING for both a drop and crafted, unless Paul Sage was lying.
The crafting set bonuses are ridiculously poor (in other words, you wouldn’t ever use most of them, and the only one I can think of that makes sense to use at all is a fill-in 3 piece for 5% extra crit chance) compared to the drop ones, and the drop ones mostly come from random bags you buy in PVP (with an extremely low drop chance) or open-world mobs randomly (Magicka Furnace is the best one in the game basically right now, 10% of your max magicka back when hit by a melee attack, 5 second internal cooldown).
Knotwood: WRONG FACT #4 He tells you that all CRAFTING SET BONUSES are crap only based on the fact that his build is only based on CRIT CHANCE, He tells you only ONE is useful, and it happens to be Crit Chance +5% set, so not only does he confirm SETS ARE WORTH USING, but also that he only found one for his type of build. There are many sets out there that can be crafted, NOT EVERY SET is suppose to be for ONE player ONLY. His bias in this should be enough to let you know that his narrow thinking has clouded his honest opinion of things.
Crafting went from being able to produce (with some effort) gear arguably superior to some of the drop sets thanks to the customizable traits (which you could then use with the worse set bonuses and still come out with a good piece of gear),to being stuff you wouldn’t use at all in your Veteran Ranks (which is where most people will spend the bulk of their playing time because everyone ends up there). For example, pre-nerf they had crafted item traits that could reduce your sprinting costs by 17-22% each at the top end which you could then stack enough to make sprinting just about free, or increase your weapon attack speed (heavy attack times etc, not abilities) by 50-60%, resulting in a large non-resource-intensive DPS potential. Now, the absolute top end weapons get about 8% speed, and the sprint cost reductions are 3-4%. Same thing across the board for all traits.
Knotwood: A lot of this is the testing you see being done in beta, a lot of stuff changes end game as they experiement with stuff. Why should you think that tinkering arounds that happen end game during beta should be what the ultimate final product will be in the release? You admitted yourself that it was superior to drop items previously, but now say its been nerfed. Shouldnt you be saying your happy that its become more equal with drop items?
Whereas before you had a real choice thanks to the strength of traits and the fact that dropped set items only come with one trait type period per set (and some had no trait at all), now you just end up with an item crafted with negligible bonuses and no set bonus/virtually useless set bonus (“Regenerate resources 20% quicker during the daytime” for a 5-piece set is an example, which runs into the softcaps that you’ll generally already be at and is a low bonus already in terms of the actual end effect).
knotwood: Not all set bonuses are for your build, there are so many builds out there, that one set bonus combo might be different for the way someone else plays. If you find a set that you do not like then find one that does fit your playstyle or give feedback to zenimax about your build and the kind of set you would like that they might have not thought of.
And don’t get me started on the addon massacre, which was primarily information most MMORPG’s put in their base UI such as hitpoint numbers and buff icons as options. Plus as I said they limited the XP you gain by grinding in a duo or higher an extreme amount making it basically unviable, as well as PVP-earned XP, leaving the only reasonably normal way to level being questing along the main quest path (before if you ran off to get side quests and killed stuff along the way, you’d level just as fast if not faster, now you’re best off following the rails of the main questlines in zones because otherwise they’re spaced out far from eachother) and public dungeons etc. giving very little even on the first completion now (before it was a good chunk of XP each time you finished one for the first time on a character). Vet XP as I mentioned numbers for before… yeah."
Knotwood: nothing to do with the topic.
So you see, A lot of this info is incorrect or biased to a certain playstyle with not much thought or work given to actually comparing things fully or understanding why the devs made the decisions they made. Some of it is just flat our wrong. So don't take someones word as gold without doing some research first or looking up what the devs say and do and why they do the things they do. Also never once does he mention a LEGENDARY ENCHANTMENT in his entire post which would go on crafted legendary items but cannot be put on drop items.
@knotwood. Ok, you have a undisputed point #1. Equal level and Equal Quality rating crafted will be better.
So: Does he say anywhere that the game at release will not have dropped gear of higher level? It doesn't sound like he added that restriction. He went out of his way with a qualified statement but avoided qualifying some interesting bits. So while the max crafted gear might have level 10,000 is there something that prevents them from creating drops of level 10,001 (or 20,000 for that matter). To be clear, if crafted only goes to 10000 and dropped can be 10001+, there is your inequality.
So: Did he make any statements that post release the game might not add dropped gear of higer level?
It sounds like legal-speech he is using. It is how he answered it that is funny. Given the question you could say yes, no, it depends, I don't know or {some crafty statement that allows players to read it anyway they want.}.
he never states that there is inequality between droped and crafted. he only states the differences of each.
He states that drops will not drop as legendary, meaning crafters will have to upgrade them to the legendary tier with upgrade items. Its for this reason he had to use the Equal level and Equal Rating to make the point between crafted and droped.
He never once, nor has any dev sated that both crafted and legendary would be unequal to each other, but have stated that enchantments would be unique on drops, which means something you might want for your build might be on a dropped item instead of a crafted one.
Another way to look at it would be to see, that they have said many times that crafters could make the best gear in game and make gear better. This statement comes from being able to make the best crafted gear in game (legendary rating) and also make gear better (upgrade drop gear up to legendary raiting).
Theres no trickery to it there no hidden things to find. What they say is almost what you find in every game out there, its just confusing to some people because of the way it is set up. Some people who see one set of legendary gear as crap might be looked at as gold to someone with another build. We know that theres many different builds and the freedom of builds in this game are greater then most mmo's of the past, so that would make sense that some people would call one set of legendary gear better then other legendary gear, when that is not the case. They both are built around the same QUALITY RAITING guidelines.
@knotwood. Ok, you have a undisputed point #1. Equal level and Equal Quality rating crafted will be better.
So: Does he say anywhere that the game at release will not have dropped gear of higher level? It doesn't sound like he added that restriction. He went out of his way with a qualified statement but avoided qualifying some interesting bits. So while the max crafted gear might have level 10,000 is there something that prevents them from creating drops of level 10,001 (or 20,000 for that matter). To be clear, if crafted only goes to 10000 and dropped can be 10001+, there is your inequality.
So: Did he make any statements that post release the game might not add dropped gear of higer level?
It sounds like legal-speech he is using. It is how he answered it that is funny. Given the question you could say yes, no, it depends, I don't know or {some crafty statement that allows players to read it anyway they want.}.
he never states that there is inequality between droped and crafted. he only states the differences of each.
He states that drops will not drop as legendary, meaning crafters will have to upgrade them to the legendary tier with upgrade items. Its for this reason he had to use the Equal level and Equal Rating to make the point between crafted and droped.
He never once, nor has any dev sated that both crafted and legendary would be unequal to each other, but have stated that enchantments would be unique on drops, which means something you might want for your build might be on a dropped item instead of a crafted one.
Another way to look at it would be to see, that they have said many times that crafters could make the best gear in game and make gear better. This statement comes from being able to make the best crafted gear in game (legendary rating) and also make gear better (upgrade drop gear up to legendary raiting).
Theres no trickery to it there no hidden things to find. What they say is almost what you find in every game out there, its just confusing to some people because of the way it is set up. Some people who see one set of legendary gear as crap might be looked at as gold to someone with another build. We know that theres many different builds and the freedom of builds in this game are greater then most mmo's of the past, so that would make sense that some people would call one set of legendary gear better then other legendary gear, when that is not the case. They both are built around the same QUALITY RAITING guidelines.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by waynejr2@knotwood. Ok, you have a undisputed point #1. Equal level and Equal Quality rating crafted will be better.So: Does he say anywhere that the game at release will not have dropped gear of higher level? It doesn't sound like he added that restriction. He went out of his way with a qualified statement but avoided qualifying some interesting bits. So while the max crafted gear might have level 10,000 is there something that prevents them from creating drops of level 10,001 (or 20,000 for that matter). To be clear, if crafted only goes to 10000 and dropped can be 10001+, there is your inequality.So: Did he make any statements that post release the game might not add dropped gear of higer level?It sounds like legal-speech he is using. It is how he answered it that is funny. Given the question you could say yes, no, it depends, I don't know or {some crafty statement that allows players to read it anyway they want.}.
he never states that there is inequality between droped and crafted. he only states the differences of each. He states that drops will not drop as legendary, meaning crafters will have to upgrade them to the legendary tier with upgrade items. Its for this reason he had to use the Equal level and Equal Rating to make the point between crafted and droped.He never once, nor has any dev sated that both crafted and legendary would be unequal to each other, but have stated that enchantments would be unique on drops, which means something you might want for your build might be on a dropped item instead of a crafted one. Another way to look at it would be to see, that they have said many times that crafters could make the best gear in game and make gear better. This statement comes from being able to make the best crafted gear in game (legendary rating) and also make gear better (upgrade drop gear up to legendary raiting). Theres no trickery to it there no hidden things to find. What they say is almost what you find in every game out there, its just confusing to some people because of the way it is set up. Some people who see one set of legendary gear as crap might be looked at as gold to someone with another build. We know that theres many different builds and the freedom of builds in this game are greater then most mmo's of the past, so that would make sense that some people would call one set of legendary gear better then other legendary gear, when that is not the case. They both are built around the same QUALITY RAITING guidelines.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Nothing stopping who? I rarely ever am a fool on these simple questions, because of research and I can tell you this, devs have never lied to us, except on one business decision, everything they have said up to date has been proven true so far, and I doubt any of that will start to change in the near future.
I think another case might be that some people see droped items of lower quality with enchantments that are of the legendary quality rating on them. Since drop items cannot have crafted legendary enchants put on them, they already come in the form of legendary quality rating enchants, even when that item drops as a common or fine or epic item which needs to be upgraded to legendary. In fact this is the whole point your raiding for, for the quality of the enchant, on the item which is not droped as legendary. Then you are upgrading it to legendary to obtain the numerical values of the legendary rating of the dropped raid gear.
So someone with a Green (fine) item, might look at a crafted green item with a less then legendary enchant on it and say that the drop was better, when really if you added a crafted legendary enchant item on the same crafted green item you would see that they are equal in Quality Rating. This is probably where most of the confusion will be at.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Well that's a very pessimistic view, you assume the worst, for no other reason than to simply assume the worst? What's leading you to think in such a way? It's a profound statement to make ( calling him "the fool"). Are you arguing for the sake of arguing here or what?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Making crafted items the means to the best gear would mean that everyone who wanted it would either have to take up crafting or gold farming. Neither are all that fun for most MMORPG players.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Well that's a very pessimistic view, you assume the worst, for no other reason than to simply assume the worst? What's leading you to think in such a way? It's a profound statement to make ( calling him "the fool") and all. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing here or what?
Devs lie. Salesmen lie. that is part of the job. A cleaner and more clear answer could have been given. That is my opinion. You have a different opinion, you are allowed. The guy toook the time to write a blogsworth of information you want to accept it on face value, more too you.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by Prhyme Making crafted items the means to the best gear would mean that everyone who wanted it would either have to take up crafting or gold farming. Neither are all that fun for most MMORPG players.
Eh, both are fun to a larger percentage of players than raiding is, lol.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Well that's a very pessimistic view, you assume the worst, for no other reason than to simply assume the worst? What's leading you to think in such a way? It's a profound statement to make ( calling him "the fool") and all. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing here or what?
Devs lie. Salesmen lie. that is part of the job. A cleaner and more clear answer could have been given. That is my opinion. You have a different opinion, you are allowed. The guy toook the time to write a blogsworth of information you want to accept it on face value, more too you.
I find it odd you'd prefer a straight yes or no, over a detailed in-depth description of how the stats on items work.
What Sage said wasn't all that hard to follow. I didn't find much cryptic information hidden in it. The opening lines of your reply pretty much say it all though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Well that's a very pessimistic view, you assume the worst, for no other reason than to simply assume the worst? What's leading you to think in such a way? It's a profound statement to make ( calling him "the fool") and all. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing here or what?
Devs lie. Salesmen lie. that is part of the job. A cleaner and more clear answer could have been given. That is my opinion. You have a different opinion, you are allowed. The guy toook the time to write a blogsworth of information you want to accept it on face value, more too you.
Yet you sit behind the blogsworth of information of someone who was uncreditworthy and accepted it at face value yourself... and then when I write a blogsworth of information to help show you the truth behind it, you call me a fool instead. Kinda backwards don't you think.
Originally posted by Prhyme Making crafted items the means to the best gear would mean that everyone who wanted it would either have to take up crafting or gold farming. Neither are all that fun for most MMORPG players.
Eh, both are fun to a larger percentage of players than raiding is, lol.
Really? Show me the long list of crafting and gold farming guilds. I see PvP and Raiding guilds.
Originally posted by Prhyme Making crafted items the means to the best gear would mean that everyone who wanted it would either have to take up crafting or gold farming. Neither are all that fun for most MMORPG players.
Or you could just raid for it, then have it upgraded.
Originally posted by Prhyme Making crafted items the means to the best gear would mean that everyone who wanted it would either have to take up crafting or gold farming. Neither are all that fun for most MMORPG players.
Eh, both are fun to a larger percentage of players than raiding is, lol.
Really? Show me the long list of crafting and gold farming guilds. I see PvP and Raiding guilds.
What do guilds have to do with "most MMORPG players?" Most players are casuals. Most casuals either don't join any guild at all, or join a *casual* guild.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by ImperialSun These arent tweaks...this is wholesale nerfing and slapping just about every type of gamer in the face that they were previously targetting.
i mean come on...a dev has said they are no longer targetting ES fans or mmorpg fans.
Now THATS one hell of an official statement 6 weeks from launch!!
Um, not really?
MMORPG fans, as seen on this very site, can waffle between deciding that any good end game NEEDS raids, or it needs instanced PvP or it NEEDS, etc, etc.
Elder Scrolls fans do the same.
If they've finally grown some balls and decided that they are NOT going to please everyone on both sides of then fence and just make their own damn game, then more power to them.
+ Infinity
This is exactly what every MMO developer needs to do - period, end of every story. Concentrate on making the game good. Stop thinking about what people might like or what they might not like. Just make the damn game as good as you can possibly make it, and quit catering to anyone in particular. Devs are paid to design this stuff for a living. Just do your jobs.
There are too many demographics, all of which argue with one another... you cannot please them. Someone is going to end up shafted, and that someone is pretty much never the PvP and End Game Crowds. And these are the people we are hearing from right now. They're blowing up over this, and calling doom and gloom like they know what's best for the game, and I call bullshit. They pull this same crap with every game, and every game sucks - thanks to them.
This is a good move.
No more ridiculous add-ons
No more PvP blowhards screwing up the game
Oh... I can't wait til I see the replies to this one...
This is exactly what every MMO developer needs to do - period, end of every story. Concentrate on making the game good. Stop thinking about what people might like or what they might not like. Just make the damn game as good as you can possibly make it, and quit catering to anyone in particular. Devs are paid to design this stuff for a living. Just do your jobs.
Reality...
That's what happens when devs "take charge" and unwilling to listen to their player needs. That's a year worth of Blizzard's "take charge" designing, which resulted in the worst drop of subs in it's history...over 5 million players left. And that screenshot can be plotted against the stock reports for proof, too.
And it's history that repeats itself every time publishers/devs get too big for their britches, as SOE learned in 2005, too. And John Romero did years earlier.
It should be taught in every game school, lest they forget and repeat history...again.
Comments
The only way to make crafting gear superior to all other gear is to have stat ranges depending on materials so there is some kind of time sink to getting better max stats. e.g. SWG... OR when you die your items die / get looted. e.g. EVE
Otherwise you'd craft a legendary and be done. As it is in the PTS, the set items are very expensive and take a long time to get the points. That is the time sink currently in place.
ESO crafting really isn't that spectacular, but it's better than some MMO's. If you want a deep crafting system that produces the best gear, you have to have sandbox systems in place to allow the shift in time sink.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Rarity. The Psijic order is, I am guessing, only a few thousand strong, if that. And the legendaries are really rare. We don't really have much of an economy, at least not one that is anywhere as robust as the release economy will be. And we all know our characters are temporary. It take a special kind of person to hunt down and gather all the legendary items they need to upgrade, by themselves, for each piece of gear they want to upgrade. Never mind researching all the traits (researching them all was supposed to be 2.4 years? Roughly? Without spending master level points on research time reduction).
I am not that kind of person. And I am willing to bet you, 90% of us aren't those kind of people either.
Alot of us are also minmaxers. And one thing minmaxers are not..is diverse in their builds.
Just my two cents.
^^
No matter how much Chicken Little flailed about and said it was, the sky wasn't actually falling. I see the same happening here. A lot of drama hinging on one guy in beta with an opinion.
Ok, I never go this deep into explaining something, but its needed here. I am going to give you the full and final argument to be made, why both drops and crafting are the best gear in game and not one better then the other.
Here is the original question that was asked of Paul Sage that the OP bases his conclusions on.
Question by player:
In end game on ESO, will the Crafting gear be equivlent or better then dungeon drops?
Most MMO's gear crafting is only good to an extent which gets replaced quickly to the pve enthusiasts.
Will the reward of say Legendary or Epic crafts be a notable difference then a drop anyone can get from a dungeon?
Answer given by Paul Sage:
Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint. Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor. However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops. Crafters can always improve those items which have unique enchantments. Legendary items do not drop...
Paul Sage first goes into answering this question by saying "Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating" which brings me to my first point.
Undisputable Point One. Keywords "EQUAL" and "Quality Rating"
Crafted gear of EQUAL LEVEL AND EQUAL QUALITY RATING, means just that, a peice of gear that has a raiting and level of the same. When developers make a game, they obviously have levels on a set if gear, but along with those levels, they have a QUALITY RATING, these Ratings determin how much stats can be put on a piece of gear as to not make it more powerful, which will make it a higher Quality Raiting. Some end game items in other games have QUALITY RATINGS much higher then thier level, which is used to state how powerful the stats on that piece of gear is. This should be the first sign that you should realize that crafting gear is on an EQUAL RAITING as DROP GEAR. Indeed he compares end game crafting items and end game dungeon drops in the same QUALITY RATING TIERS.
Paul Sage then goes into telling the diffearnces between the two kinds of gear that have EQUAL Level and Quality Raiting" He does not say one is BETTER thhe the other, because he has already stated that they are EQUAL in level AND QUALITY RAITING.
He states that strong points of crafted goods, "Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint." he then states what he means by numerical standpoint, "Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor." Then he goes on to state the Unique differance in some drop gears, "However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops." Which is appealing to people who love drops, showing that there is variety in dungeons and crafted, and that not everything is the same type, not that its more POWERFUL then each other. Otherwise he would not have said EQUAL QUALITY RAITING.
Then he finishes by talking about how these items can be upgraded to legendary because they do not drop as legendary, they may drop as FINE to EPIC QUALITY RATING. Both Crafted and drop items can be upgraded in game to LEGENDARY QUALITY RAITING.
I did not want to explain this all in this great of detail that would seem already simple to understand to most gamers, but I figured it needs to be since some people still just dont get it.
Next read Golden Tigers post and see what has been taken out of context and what has not, I'll try to put a post together to point out why the GOLDEN TIGER is not the AUTHORITY on END game gear and shouldnt even be listened to, not that hes bad, but the fact that he misunderstood and uses gear thats half finished to make his point. HE is comparing GEAR OF UNEQUAL QUALITY RATING and calling it EQUAL QUALITY RAITING. Thats where I have a problem with Golden Tiger's post, and why I stand by the DEV's WORDS.
Yes, it certainly means raid, dungeon size makes no difference.
I am very curious where you pull those numbers from as mainstream design does not support your theory at all - game developers would not be making dungeons/raids if it did not keep players paying.
Unless you are capable to support your claim with some rationale but your opinion, I call it false.
@knotwood. Ok, you have a undisputed point #1. Equal level and Equal Quality rating crafted will be better.
So: Does he say anywhere that the game at release will not have dropped gear of higher level? It doesn't sound like he added that restriction. He went out of his way with a qualified statement but avoided qualifying some interesting bits. So while the max crafted gear might have level 10,000 is there something that prevents them from creating drops of level 10,001 (or 20,000 for that matter). To be clear, if crafted only goes to 10000 and dropped can be 10001+, there is your inequality.
So: Did he make any statements that post release the game might not add dropped gear of higer level?
It sounds like legal-speech he is using. It is how he answered it that is funny. Given the question you could say yes, no, it depends, I don't know or {some crafty statement that allows players to read it anyway they want.}.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
So you see, A lot of this info is incorrect or biased to a certain playstyle with not much thought or work given to actually comparing things fully or understanding why the devs made the decisions they made. Some of it is just flat our wrong. So don't take someones word as gold without doing some research first or looking up what the devs say and do and why they do the things they do. Also never once does he mention a LEGENDARY ENCHANTMENT in his entire post which would go on crafted legendary items but cannot be put on drop items.
he never states that there is inequality between droped and crafted. he only states the differences of each.
He states that drops will not drop as legendary, meaning crafters will have to upgrade them to the legendary tier with upgrade items. Its for this reason he had to use the Equal level and Equal Rating to make the point between crafted and droped.
He never once, nor has any dev sated that both crafted and legendary would be unequal to each other, but have stated that enchantments would be unique on drops, which means something you might want for your build might be on a dropped item instead of a crafted one.
Another way to look at it would be to see, that they have said many times that crafters could make the best gear in game and make gear better. This statement comes from being able to make the best crafted gear in game (legendary rating) and also make gear better (upgrade drop gear up to legendary raiting).
Theres no trickery to it there no hidden things to find. What they say is almost what you find in every game out there, its just confusing to some people because of the way it is set up. Some people who see one set of legendary gear as crap might be looked at as gold to someone with another build. We know that theres many different builds and the freedom of builds in this game are greater then most mmo's of the past, so that would make sense that some people would call one set of legendary gear better then other legendary gear, when that is not the case. They both are built around the same QUALITY RAITING guidelines.
So there is nothing stopping him. We shall see how it turns out in the end. IMO, I think you will end up being the fool on this one.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Nothing stopping who? I rarely ever am a fool on these simple questions, because of research and I can tell you this, devs have never lied to us, except on one business decision, everything they have said up to date has been proven true so far, and I doubt any of that will start to change in the near future.I think another case might be that some people see droped items of lower quality with enchantments that are of the legendary quality rating on them. Since drop items cannot have crafted legendary enchants put on them, they already come in the form of legendary quality rating enchants, even when that item drops as a common or fine or epic item which needs to be upgraded to legendary. In fact this is the whole point your raiding for, for the quality of the enchant, on the item which is not droped as legendary. Then you are upgrading it to legendary to obtain the numerical values of the legendary rating of the dropped raid gear.
So someone with a Green (fine) item, might look at a crafted green item with a less then legendary enchant on it and say that the drop was better, when really if you added a crafted legendary enchant item on the same crafted green item you would see that they are equal in Quality Rating. This is probably where most of the confusion will be at.
Well that's a very pessimistic view, you assume the worst, for no other reason than to simply assume the worst? What's leading you to think in such a way? It's a profound statement to make ( calling him "the fool"). Are you arguing for the sake of arguing here or what?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Devs lie. Salesmen lie. that is part of the job. A cleaner and more clear answer could have been given. That is my opinion. You have a different opinion, you are allowed. The guy toook the time to write a blogsworth of information you want to accept it on face value, more too you.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Eh, both are fun to a larger percentage of players than raiding is, lol.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I find it odd you'd prefer a straight yes or no, over a detailed in-depth description of how the stats on items work.
What Sage said wasn't all that hard to follow. I didn't find much cryptic information hidden in it. The opening lines of your reply pretty much say it all though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yet you sit behind the blogsworth of information of someone who was uncreditworthy and accepted it at face value yourself... and then when I write a blogsworth of information to help show you the truth behind it, you call me a fool instead. Kinda backwards don't you think.
Really? Show me the long list of crafting and gold farming guilds. I see PvP and Raiding guilds.
Or you could just raid for it, then have it upgraded.
What do guilds have to do with "most MMORPG players?" Most players are casuals. Most casuals either don't join any guild at all, or join a *casual* guild.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
+ Infinity
This is exactly what every MMO developer needs to do - period, end of every story. Concentrate on making the game good. Stop thinking about what people might like or what they might not like. Just make the damn game as good as you can possibly make it, and quit catering to anyone in particular. Devs are paid to design this stuff for a living. Just do your jobs.
There are too many demographics, all of which argue with one another... you cannot please them. Someone is going to end up shafted, and that someone is pretty much never the PvP and End Game Crowds. And these are the people we are hearing from right now. They're blowing up over this, and calling doom and gloom like they know what's best for the game, and I call bullshit. They pull this same crap with every game, and every game sucks - thanks to them.
This is a good move.
No more ridiculous add-ons
No more PvP blowhards screwing up the game
Oh... I can't wait til I see the replies to this one...
That's right I don't see why there has to be fighting between which gear is better.
Cant we just all be happy that crafters get to make max level gear of the BEST IN GAME QUAILITY (LEGENDARY) and enchant them with LEGENDARY ENCHANTS.
While Raiders get BEST IN GAME QUALITY ENCHANTS (equal to Legendary enchants) on their gear drops which Crafters can UPGRADE to LEGENDARY.
It all seems fair to me. Crafters get the best end game gear, and so do raiders. who can complain about that.
Crafting is going to be a very important part of eso - and it's a lot of fun! I plan on spending a lot of time crafting after about level 10
Reality...
That's what happens when devs "take charge" and unwilling to listen to their player needs. That's a year worth of Blizzard's "take charge" designing, which resulted in the worst drop of subs in it's history...over 5 million players left. And that screenshot can be plotted against the stock reports for proof, too.
And it's history that repeats itself every time publishers/devs get too big for their britches, as SOE learned in 2005, too. And John Romero did years earlier.
It should be taught in every game school, lest they forget and repeat history...again.
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