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Enough with the twitching already!!!

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  • Righteous_RockRighteous_Rock Youngstown, OHPosts: 495Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)

     

    Now if someone would come up with good turn based system  that is not pattern based....

     

     

    Procs is the mmorpg version of becoming a twitch game and I hate them. They are annoying and your not reacting to the action, but rather the proc lights, woopty do, who wants to stare at those?

    Proc lights up -  mmorpg player: "oh boy i get to press the number 4 button, presses button, oh yes big crit, I am so good"

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    Originally posted by Lobotomist

    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)

     

    Now if someone would come up with good turn based system  that is not pattern based....

     

     

    Procs is the mmorpg version of becoming a twitch game and I hate them. They are annoying and your not reacting to the action, but rather the proc lights, woopty do, who wants to stare at those?

    Proc lights up -  mmorpg player: "oh boy i get to press the number 4 button, presses button, oh yes big crit, I am so good"

     

    lol I just envisioned a room full of lab monkey trained to push a button when a light flashes to win the banana.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    Advanced MMOs use character positioning as their 'twitch' aspect. This is just like real life - so is pretty popular. If you want to simulate a boxing match you use 'twitch' combat. The boxer needs to bob and weave and react to incoming punches to not get smacked hard in the head.

    Likewise people like MMOs where you have stay behind the mob, jump behind a rock to avoid a fireball, raise your shield to block your spear. Is it 'twitch' maybe - but so is real life street fighting. You damn well better be 'quick' or you will get beat down. So building around this is smart.

    What is less smart is thinking games that are turn based are the future. Turn based games were just a stop-gag because the internet was too slow for real time action based combat.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

     

    What is less smart is thinking games that are turn based are the future. Turn based games were just a stop-gag because the internet was too slow for real time action based combat.

    You must be aware that turn based games have a long history before computers were even invented?

     

    I generally dislike twitch but wouldn't mind an actual game with realistic sword fighting where you had to parry and thrust skillfully rather than just jumping around and rolling on the ground and you shouldn't be able to dodge a fireball or an arrow once it is in flight. No one is that fast.

    The game Risen has the best non-turn based combat I've seen in an RPG. An MMO based on a system like that would be cool.

     

     

     

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Advanced MMOs use character positioning as their 'twitch' aspect. This is just like real life - so is pretty popular. If you want to simulate a boxing match you use 'twitch' combat. The boxer needs to bob and weave and react to incoming punches to not get smacked hard in the head.

    Likewise people like MMOs where you have stay behind the mob, jump behind a rock to avoid a fireball, raise your shield to block your spear. Is it 'twitch' maybe - but so is real life street fighting. You damn well better be 'quick' or you will get beat down. So building around this is smart.

    What is less smart is thinking games that are turn based are the future. Turn based games were just a stop-gag because the internet was too slow for real time action based combat.

     

    Gotta love the irony. What is less smart is thinking turn-based games have or had anything to do with slow internet. AT ALL. EVER. lol FFS people, do some research before you post this crap.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,506Member Uncommon

    "Change is the only constant."

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game?  Surely the answer to that is obvious.

    Now, twitch combat isn't the only way to prevent combat from being completely stupid and boring, but it is probably the most common.

    Indeed one might think it is that obvious except it isn't.  Harken back to FF1 and Zelda both were good yet some preferred one over the other.

     

    Plain fact some of us preferred non action "rpg" over action rpg's. I liked both but I preferred by far the non action variety. I think companies are making a big and stupid mistake in thinking that all rpg fans want or think the rpg genre should evolve into action based games.

    Quite frankly I am becoming very very tired of the suck arse systems were you need to dodge the red circle under .5sec reaction time.

    I guess it just goes with big companies targeting  the teens, early 20's crowd like almost all big companies do now.

     

    As for those that think turn based was a stop gap for net issues..lol  Let me clue you in on something there were games back when internet gaming wasn't the norm that had action combat and ..... .

    ,,,,,you guessed it turn based combat!

     

     

    Originally posted by GuyClinch

    Advanced MMOs use character positioning as their 'twitch' aspect. This is just like real life - so is pretty popular. If you want to simulate a boxing match you use 'twitch' combat. The boxer needs to bob and weave and react to incoming punches to not get smacked hard in the head.

    Likewise people like MMOs where you have stay behind the mob, jump behind a rock to avoid a fireball, raise your shield to block your spear. Is it 'twitch' maybe - but so is real life street fighting. You damn well better be 'quick' or you will get beat down. So building around this is smart.

    What is less smart is thinking games that are turn based are the future. Turn based games were just a stop-gag because the internet was too slow for real time action based combat.

    So by this reasoning sometime far far in the future we will have virtual reality simulated mmo's taking place in "holodecks" and you will have to be in super duper shape and the prime of your life and be a gymastic/kungfu/medievil combat expert so you can even play the game with any degree of skill ?

    I ask because the reasoning you have is where this is all heading.

     

     

    Call me old fashion but I think there is enough market for both types of games those were you need good hand eye coordination and quick reflexes and those where you rely more on the characters you are role playing  and that characters gear, stats and general growth etc etc.

     

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  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Octagon7711

    Enough with the twerking already!!!

     

    lol It's definitely time for a twerk-action combat mmo.

  • IrishChaiIrishChai St Louis, MOPosts: 529Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asm0deus

     

    Call me old fashion but I think there is enough market for both types of games those were you need good hand eye coordination and quick reflexes and those where you rely more on the characters you are role playing  and that characters gear, stats and general growth etc etc.

     

     

    image  I know I will always enjoy both and be disappointed to see either market decline in a wide variety of titles every year.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by botrytis
    Then new RPG's are NOT for you. I get sick of turn based combat - bleh!

    if I am involved in a battle, I want to be able to move around. When you fight in RL, you don't just stand there and fight - you move around. It is more realistic and more involving (well, except for ESO combat which is just mashing keys).


    Unfortunately, you are quite correct. Sad that a whole genre of games, ones that I really enjoyed playing, is taken from me due to console-born FPS twitch combat lovers...

    No, what YOU want is to control of your avatar, where every move is 100% successful. In old-time tab target combat, random numbers are generated that take into account what your *characters'* abilities are. It may not "look" like you are moving, but you will get "dodge, block, riposte" messages during combat, as your character, not you, successfully accomplish these tasks.

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • WingeyeWingeye VaasaPosts: 58Member

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0-OL_71yU

     

    action combat with every skill and action having cool time between 5-30 seconds

    so you slow folks have time to think what button to press next

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
     

    Who would want it though in a MMORPG, when things like immersion/story/character development is much more important? Let alone active combat is a tiring feature, that will burn players out faster?

     

    It's all about the pacing to get your value out of a franchise, unless you regard franchises as but disposable entertainment (then it'll be a quite expensive hobby with little to show for it).

    I do. Who says immersion/story/character dev is much more important? That is just a preference. So what if it burns players out faster. It is better to have a short and very fun game, then a longer but mediocre one.

    I got more value/fun out of Deus Ex and Dishonored than most MMOs (which they should learn from), and those games have great combat, and stories.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Posts: 847Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wingeye

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT0-OL_71yU

     

    action combat with every skill and action having cool time between 5-30 seconds

    so you slow folks have time to think what button to press next

    If I want a game pressing L&R buttons to test reaction speed I'll go play space invaders. Don't try to disguise a significant reduction in in-game skill choices as something better.

    Try playing Aion with your quoted slow skill speed. The only time you'll have then is when ressing.

    This trying to pass off a reduction in skills as the way forward is sheer bs. It's purely down to the limitations of the controller which now sees shoot-'em-ups trying to be mmo's.

    It may work for Sonic the Hedgehog, but the lack of input commands just dumbs down mmo's to a thoughtless finger/thumb prodding exercise. 

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by JudgeUK

    If I want a game pressing L&R buttons to test reaction speed I'll go play space invaders. Don't try to disguise a significant reduction in in-game skill choices as something better.

    It's true, twitch combat is actually as old as it gets when talking about video games, the original video games were all twitch. And twitch has been used in MMOs since the old school days with games like Planetside actually being almost entirely twitch based. So I don't really see twitch as something that is new and innovative, nor is it even something appearing now because technology has caught up. MMOs have always been capable of doing twitch, they just didn't want to. Indeed, the early MMOs consciously tried to minimize twitch and that wasn't due to technology constraints.

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    image
  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    This. Developers could make turn based games - but they know better. And yes turn based was a technological limitation in games like EQ and Wow. They would have been twitchier if we had the bandwith.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

    2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by GuyClinch
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    This. Developers could make turn based games - but they know better. And yes turn based was a technological limitation in games like EQ and Wow. They would have been twitchier if we had the bandwith.

    Twitchier like swg and UO?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

    2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?

    Idk about all that other stuff.. but i do know that ppl like to be recognized for their achievements.. and to me there is nothing more amazing than being a lower lvl player being able to complete content that a higher lvl player can't simply because you have more skill... being able to survive in a raid or dungeon when everyone else dies and keeping the team from wiping because you have amazing skill...

     

    This to me is a great reward... and a great reason to go action combat.

    image
  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Again, this is not a bad thing. I appreciate players who enjoy playing this way. It is just sad that they have infested a whole genre based on character, not player, abilities.

    Sad is only a matter of perspective.

    Look at a great game like Dishonored .. you get your skills, but you have to use it in real time. Ditto for Diablo, Bioshock, and many many great games.

    It is not that i don't play turn-based games (Shadowrun return is great), but I feel great when there is so much fun in the action combat area. I suppose if you don't like it, you will feel sad ... but the whole thing is really about what the masses want, and the market decide.

     

    You have been repeating that same tired old argument for almost 17 thousand posts now. Incredible.

    it's because he is right.

    I have to agree as well.  Rts combat is best in rts games.

    2 hands 2 buttons. I just kill the boars though. I don't need 60 skills. What are you guys doing to the boars?

    Idk about all that other stuff.. but i do know that ppl like to be recognized for their achievements.. and to me there is nothing more amazing than being a lower lvl player being able to complete content that a higher lvl player can't simply because you have more skill... being able to survive in a raid or dungeon when everyone else dies and keeping the team from wiping because you have amazing skill...

     

    This to me is a great reward... and a great reason to go action combat.

    Right.

    Impossible odds, the only way to play imo.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
     

    Who would want it though in a MMORPG, when things like immersion/story/character development is much more important? Let alone active combat is a tiring feature, that will burn players out faster?

     

    It's all about the pacing to get your value out of a franchise, unless you regard franchises as but disposable entertainment (then it'll be a quite expensive hobby with little to show for it).

    I do. Who says immersion/story/character dev is much more important? That is just a preference. So what if it burns players out faster. It is better to have a short and very fun game, then a longer but mediocre one.

    I got more value/fun out of Deus Ex and Dishonored than most MMOs (which they should learn from), and those games have great combat, and stories.

     

    But do you still play Deus Ex?

     

    I do.

     

    Why?

     

    Because the value is still there, as the game isn't disposable to this very day. All these years later, not a game could hold a torch to the original DX game.

     

    And the pacing was perfect. Could race in and pull the room. Could sneak around sentries. Could be a pacifist. Could use your tools and environment to your advantage.

     

    Your play style was represented.

     

    Now try to get any of that AS A DESIGN in a game today. Publishers/devs are busy more dictating their ideas, than creating something ORIGINAL.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game?  Surely the answer to that is obvious.

    Now, twitch combat isn't the only way to prevent combat from being completely stupid and boring, but it is probably the most common.

    That's the funny thing about roleplaying.......one person's mana is another's poison.  MMOs aren't just about combat nor is one style of combat better or more entertaining than the other.  It goes to show just how much game developers are still clueless after all these years, when they haven't learned to resist the stream of lemmings jumping off the cliff. (In other words, something new and exciting shouldn't equate to every upcoming MMO embracing twitchy combat).

    If your game isn't about combat, then it doesn't matter much if you have good combat.  Most (not all!) MMORPGs, however, are almost entirely about combat, with any other features being (often half-baked) things to make you better at combat.  And if your game is almost entirely about combat, having bad combat is a big problem.

    Once again, you are not proving that one combat mechanic is superior to another, the term good is subjective and you know it, no matter your penchant for sidestepping the issue.  There is no doubt here that combat plays a significant role even in early RPGs let alone MMORPGs and even if it wasn't, why would any gamer not want all aspects of the MMORPG to be appealing, no matter how significant in the over-all picture?  There is an audience out there for all kinds of play styles and combat mechanics and so forth.  I certainly don't see the need or the reason for developers to arbitrarily dismiss any segment of the gaming audience by ceasing to make any future MMOs that cater to them.  This lemming style of development is not only illogical, it doesn't even make good business sense.

    While there may not be objectively superior combat, if 90% of the players considering playing game A or game B like game A's combat better, then game B has a problem.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

    Dear God no.


    I would rather success in combat be based on skill and not spreadsheets.


    The EQ/WoW style of turn based combat has gone about as far as it will go and it is time for a change.


    I want MMO combat to evolve and improve, not be cemented in the past and stagnate.

    And of course, by "evolve and improve", you mean "change to become more the way I prefer it". Right?

    There's nothing about tab-based combat that's "cemented in the past and stagnating". It's a viable and valid method of control/combat that still has its place. You may not prefer it, but then that just makes it a preference. Nothing more.

    As was stated just earlier in this thread... We can have both. There are Twitch-based combat MMOs for those who prefer that. There are the traditional tab-targeting types for fans of that style. And hey, there are even some in the middle (lik myself) who can and do enjoy both.

    Then again, I've never been one to buy into the binary mindset so many people around here have, where it has to be one or the other; where one way is "good", the other way is "bad". There's this vast gray area in-between, and it's populated by many, many people whose tastes and preferences run the gamut. It's a rather nice place to be.

    I couldn't imagine limiting myself to what games I play based on some arbitrary, strict "A or B, but never Both" mindset.

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