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Best gear will be looted, not crafted.

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  • HaralinHaralin KölnPosts: 110Member
    For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.
  • DeddmeatDeddmeat StanwellPosts: 358Member Uncommon

    @Phry .. who told you crafters had gone after the NGE, sure it sucked what they did but I still had my crafter, was in a city. I think there were at least 3 or 4 of us crafting in just the small city/town lol

    Ofcourse some had FANTASTIC house layouts you'd be totally envious of, i tried to make mine respectable but hell, some of the guys/gals they were experts at interior decorating ;-)

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I'm glad I saw this thread before I went and pre-ordered.

    So TESO is like so many other MMOs out there now huh?

    Scratch one more game off my To-Do list.

    The game has a lot of betas. You'd probably get a better feel for the game if you joined one rather than some how using this thread to get an overall view of the game.

    Unless you are a crafter, there isn't really much in this thread that gives a big picture view of the game. 

    It's about the crafting. 

    I thought FF14 ARR was supposed to be HUGE on crafting. It had classes dedicated to crafting that were as equally painstaking to level (Harder actually) than the combat classes. Then when they released the 2nd raid, crafting was left out. 

    I went into a game believing there was finally an MMO that would keep crafting on par with PVE. It didn't. 

    I almost went into TESO with the same hope. I'm just glad I know now.

     

    And as you can imagine, a beta weekend isn't going to show me what I'm looking for.

    Oh, well yeh, if crafting is a big enough deal to you that you can base your entire decision on whether to play the game on some beta change, then yeh TESO probably isn't for you.

    I do think it is better to go and play the game and find out for yourself though. I never really take the word of others on that sort of thing if I have the ability to freely find out for myself. 

    Your tone sounds very judgmental for my wanting an MMO with endgame competitive crafting.

  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by ImperialSun
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Bannuk
    Originally posted by Grym
    Originally posted by DMKano

    You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.

    Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.

    C'mon, apples and oranges.

    Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow.  By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time.  I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles.  However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity.  You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc.  The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master.  Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.

    Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.

    Ding ding ding!

    To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.

    Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.

    Get it?

     

    SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.

    When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down. 

     

    I wonder if ESO will be live for around 10 years and be so loved by its fan base that they devote years of free time to making an ESO emulator long after it's gone?

     

    i think we all know the answer to that lol

    Also totally ignores the fact that it was SOE that totally screwed up SWG,

    First with the CU, although i will admit they probably went off the rails when they introduced the Hologrind for Jedi's, something that should never have existed in the game except as a very rare NPC.

     But they gave the game a final death blow with the NGE. The crafting community had already left by that point.

     SWG could have still been going strong if only they hadn't tried to change the original game mechanics, it would have been a niche game much as Eve online is, and probably with similar numbers, the fact that it had the best crafting system of any game including ones still in development, is a huge factor, as is the fact that it introduced social gaming through both medical and entertainment skill tree's. It also had housing and trading features that no other game has managed to do half as well.

     So if a game is compared to SWG's features, its because they still represent the best that has so far been achieved.image

     

     

    Could not agree more with this post :)

     

     

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member
    Originally posted by Haralin
    For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.

    Well but is had to be balanced :) How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill? 

  • LahuzerLahuzer BorPosts: 666Member Uncommon
    If they are really going down this road, and making crafting on par with looting I just cancell my preorder. How freaking lame is that? If people don't wanna craft, they should turn to crafters and buy the equpiment they want. Cause during the time it takes crafters to gather recources etc to craft stuff with, those that don't wanna craft can do dungeons and quest and grind or whatever and get gold to buy the gear. If they going through with this I won't play it. And they had just won me over to preorder it. Morons.
  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Haralin
    For me it should be that all armor or weapons are available from crafting or PvE or PvP so every Playstyle can achieve what he wants.

    Well but is had to be balanced :) How you make crafting best for example weapon in-game to be as hard as dropping it from some super hard boss you need 12 people to kill? 

     

    The best items in game should be crafted. Period.

     

    who wants to run the same old PvE content over and over and over and over and over and over for a 1% chance at a single component drop split between 12 people.

     

    that sort of thinly veiled gear treadmill is so 2010....where is the innovation I keep hearing about? 

  • Preacher26Preacher26 saranac, NYPosts: 378Member

    Crafting should play an important role in this game. I don't think players should be forced to craft to obtain BiS items but IDE love a system that tied crafting into the gearing process... Like epics being the rarest quality that drops and NEEDING crafters to upgrade that gear to legendaries.... That way the best base items would be earned through the combat/adventure portion of the game but only with the help of a crafter can those items be upgraded to BiS. Otherwise why craft?  Just to make leveling easier or for an fresh 50 starter set? 

     

    Crafting needs to be an important, social aspect of the game. IMHO of coarse

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,062Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by reeereee
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    Apparently there were games like that in the time before WoW.

    There are still games like that, Age Of Wulin/Wushu being one of them.

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  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

    And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

    Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by TbauI wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.

    Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.

    Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?

    And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

    And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

    Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

    It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

    Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

    image
  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

    And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

    Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

    It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

    Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

     

    Precisely.

     

    ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.

     

    i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Tbau

     

    I wouldn't be surprised. DaoC started out with the best gear being crafted and then the developers caved in and changed it, one of them is the head of TESO development.


     

    Same goes for EVE, the flagship of sandbox game design. For the past years, CCP is driving the game purely into loot based economy.

    Player crafted economy is interesting but not worthy concept to follow. The thing is, once you remove loot as progression or just gameplay objective, what to replace it with?

    And honestly, loot is the best reward provided in video game (MMO)RPG ever. People just love loot, so why not giving it to them?

    It doesn't have to be just one way or the other. Loot can easily be tied into crafting. This has been done by several games.

    As example : All gear is crafted, but can be customized with upgrades. The upgrades are looted and are needed to customize the crafted gear to efficiently support specific character builds. Players can add the upgrades themselves to gear, but crafters can then improve upon it.

    Different crafting styles have to be looted (by reengineering weapons and armour or whatever) , which then give a blue print for the crafter to finish.

    Just a simple example of how looting can tie in with crafting and creates more trade. Even trade windows can be made secure in a way that you never have to actually hand over your loot to some unknown crafter, and the crafter can still use it for an applying it to gear.

    I also think that a large part of the community needs their loot fix, so yeah, completely crafting based might not be very popular for a themepark MMO. But there are many options to make crafting still very much needed. Instead of just some redundant hobby.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,860Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by ImperialSun

    Precisely. ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP. i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.

    Casuals are no MMORPG players? Get off your high horse please...

  • CouganCougan DoncasterPosts: 394Member
    Originally posted by ImperialSun
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

    And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

    Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

    It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

    Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

     

    Precisely.

     

    ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.

     

    i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.

    I had to laugh when I read that. You realise this argument you're making is based off what a guild leader says he was told internally... without the actual quote or whether it was in context. Nowhere have Zenimax said they are not making the game for MMO players or elder scrolls fans?

     

  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Long Island, NYPosts: 480Member Uncommon

    There is a game out there called GW2 that rewards you with the best gear for following a zerg of people you do not know and hitting auto attack for the best rewards.

     

    Please just stay there and stop trying to make every game that comes out into "get the best gear for being able to log in".

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common

    The reality of the game is that:

    The best gear will be looted, THEN crafted.   

     

    Personally, i would have preferred that instead of whole items dropping and then getting crafted up to a higher rank, instead it was the key components that dropped and then allowed the crafter to use all those traits and visual things to make the final item.    But /shrug.   At the end of the day, as an adventurer, i still need to go hire a crafter to get the best item in game.  As a crafter, i still get to make the best item in the game - even if it's based on a pre-existing dropped item.  

     

    Just seems like a bit of a waste of the whole trait research and racial style thing, if htose can't be applied to upgrading those top end items. 

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  • AkemiZenAkemiZen Oklahoma City, OKPosts: 24Member

    I think it would be a great idea to introduce rare items used for crafting in high end dungeons/raids.  Raids would still be meaningful, and so would crafting.  I am a huge fan of crafting meaning something and for people to stand out as the best of the best.  Do I think it should be hard to get there? Absolutely! 

    I think leveling too quickly kills some games for me.  There was a time when someone who had a full time job was as likely to reach max level first as someone who was in college.  There was a time when questing never was enough to get to max level and you had to grind out mobs.  I remember running around to "camp spots" and hoping they were not already taken.  What is even stranger, is these are the games I sit back and think "Those were the good days."

    I agree that the wording the developer used was poorly thought out.  It is near impossible to cater to everyone individually, so maybe saying we are not trying to target ONLY mmorpgers, ONLY Elder Scrolls players, ONLY pvpers, but instead make a game that is fun for everyone, might have been better.  I can only imagine how hard it is for developers to hear the constant complaining and bickering, and I assume everyone has a bad day every once in awhile.

    If people are looking for immersion and realism, add ons are immersion and realism breaking tools.  They are also an all or nothing.  Either everyone has to have them to be viable or no one gets them and the playing field is equal.  I played during a few beta weekends with no addons, and I had an awesome time in AvA.  Maybe I should be thankful I never was spoiled with them to be upset with their removal.

  • CouganCougan DoncasterPosts: 394Member

    I didnt realise you had to be max level of V10 to pvp.

     

    Maybe they can grind out the last few levels while actually in PVP? Since there are repeatable missions.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stiler
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Or...snip

    The resource gathering, quality of resources affecting the item, having to sell at a house rather then the AH, etc.

     

    IT allowed die hard crafters to stand out, make a name for themselves, and actually become sought after.

     

    What other games did that aside from SWG/UO?

     

    Well Ryzom has quality levels for materials that do that. When you harvest the item because of weather or season can change the quality too, you dig resources up. Haven and Hearth had stands to sell goods as did Wurm Online. I haven't seen both together but separately those things have been in some other games.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arieste

    The reality of the game is that:

    The best gear will be looted, THEN crafted.   

     

    Personally, i would have preferred that instead of whole items dropping and then getting crafted up to a higher rank, instead it was the key components that dropped and then allowed the crafter to use all those traits and visual things to make the final item.    But /shrug.   At the end of the day, as an adventurer, i still need to go hire a crafter to get the best item in game.  As a crafter, i still get to make the best item in the game - even if it's based on a pre-existing dropped item.  

     

    Just seems like a bit of a waste of the whole trait research and racial style thing, if htose can't be applied to upgrading those top end items. 

    There is a big difference between enchanting/enhancing gear and crafting gear. 

  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Cougan
    Originally posted by ImperialSun
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by timidobserver
    I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense. 

    On every planet, except the raiding one. Point is, for most players it is the better solution. Crafters get their credits, pvp player don't have to raid for their gear(just buy it from crafters, and give them credits for their work), and any other player basicly, too.

    And this was one reason why DAoC worked out that good.. until ToA, until the best gear did come from Raidlike content.

    Ok.. i do get that raiders do want some incentive.. but can this incentive be, that every other group is forced to do raiding, too, although they all hate raiding? No.. no not really.. not in any imaginable world, planet or universe.

    It's been this way for a long time.  Casuals want the best gear but don't want to raid.  Raiders want the best gear to set themselves apart from the casuals.  Crafters want to their time crafting to have meaning and be rewarded for it.  

    Now, if the numbers were there that crafting should provide the best rewards then there would be more MMOs where this was the case.  I bet the demographics just will not support your argument.   If they did, then crafted gear would be the best.  Since this is a subscription game, they made the decision that would bring in the most $$$$$.

     

    Precisely.

     

    ZOS have confirmed they are no longer making the game for MMORPG players OR elder scrolls fans. It's there in black and white in the OP.

     

    i assume the new target audience IS casuals then? Which supports the decision to shaft crafters, Competetive pvpers and old school MMORPG players who value being able to level and enjoy the gaming experience with their friends.

    I had to laugh when I read that. You realise this argument you're making is based off what a guild leader says he was told internally... without the actual quote or whether it was in context. Nowhere have Zenimax said they are not making the game for MMO players or elder scrolls fans?

     

    An official representative of the company made the statement to an internal closed beta test guild leader.

     

    Then it's an official statement whether you like it or not.

  • jpaprockijpaprocki Davisville, WVPosts: 269Member Uncommon

    I have been a staunch supporter of ESO on these forums.  I normally don't cry the sky is falling at every little change, but I don't like many of the changes they have made this close to launch.  I'm getting nervous that they may have only one more beta test before early launch of the game and I don't think that is enough time to get all the data they made need to fully test all these changes.

    Crafting was one of the main selling points for me and that just went out the window.  I could careless about the add-ons, but even slower xp gain I don't think I like that idea.  I understand what they are trying to do, but that isn't the way to do it.  I hate games where I have to grind just to get anywhere (which is the main reason I don't like eastern mmo's).

    I have cancelled my pre-order and will wait for a month after ESO has been out to see where it stands.  Had they made these changes a couple months ago and had a few betas to make adjustments and so on before release I would have been fine with it.  With launch only weeks away, forger it.

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  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Khajim
    ...snip

     

    So yes, after seeing the quality of information coming out of ZOS and comparing it to the detailed, numbers driven, FEEDBACK that testers are giving, EVERYONE should be listening to the testers as opposed to the DEVS. Remember, the devs are trying to sell a game and make MONEY. The testers are volunteering their time to play a toon that is going to be deleted, just in order to allow for their feedback to be noted and implemented. 

    Not without some benefit to themselves. Their feedback is what they hope to mold the game the way they want it to be. Without being in PTS - how would those fansites have any page views, they get them because they have insider knowledge others can't get. Along with their youtube videos and Twitch casts. There is a reward for being in that PTS, it's looking wiser than everyone on the outside and being able to state - if you knew what I know, you would believe me. They have also had plenty of time to plan what they consider best, worst, and middle ground while the rest of the players have to start from scratch unless they take their word for it - if they decide to share their true thoughts and not something politically correct to say. PTS people are getting a personal boost for their guilds and networks other guilds aren't getting. They aren't testing without reward as you make it sound. I've seen some of the PTS testers not find a bug in 6 hours of play on Twitch. It didn't stop them from playing, clearly they are doing it because they get something else out of it too - like viewers. The only martyr testers are the ones not trying to up their views, follows, and likes who you don't hear from.

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