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Enough with the twitching already!!!

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Righteous_Rock
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by Quizzical

    Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game?  Surely the answer to that is obvious.

    Now, twitch combat isn't the only way to prevent combat from being completely stupid and boring, but it is probably the most common.

    That depends on exactly what it is you do. In his example, his success in the game would depend on how he built his character vs the other being learning to get the timing of certain visual queues memorized.

    And as far as non-twitch combat being boring.....Have you played WoW lately? I stopped recently because I couldn't keep up with the need for raiding. It wasn't for boring combat. In fact, the most popular mods downloaded in WoW are to assist with combat rotations since it's actually more difficult that probably 95% of the people in this forum will admit do.

    Doesn't that make it easy then? 

    Easy? I never thought of WoW's combat as easy. Not in the sense or context it's generally referenced here at MMORPG.COM. But if by easy, you mean giving me more information as to help me make a better decisions, then yes.

    But here is how to succeed in WoW - it's as easy as 1,2,....3 Just follow these three steps to become a legendary raid champion

    1. Know your rotation, gear specs

    2. Memorize the fights and move accordingly, you will know when to move because you have the fights memorized and therefore there is no need to react in a "twitch" manner

    3. Execute your rotation as best you can and yes addons make that easier but addons are part of the game.

    World of Warcraft - Easy peezy lemon squeezy

    Means zero to me...look at my sig.

     

    Really, really sick of the pewpewpew mindset in games. Like they're totally oblivious to anything else in a game but shoot/hit/kill. -_-

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon

    Why can't their be both? No reason to have both types on the market, variety is always great. At the same time, keep in mind you shouldn't "Need" to breeze through and have everything handed to you without effort or reflexes required either, no challenge will bore you far quicker then you expect.  Not all "Twitch" games are devoid of parts that a more relaxed player like yourself can enjoy too. 

  • LqeaerLqeaer MoscowPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar
    Originally posted by Dauntis

    Anyone else tired of people clammoring for twitch combat in MMORPGs?

    Why should my geared out supposably awesome warrior have to depend on my keyboard skills in an RPG?

    Twitch players have all the rest of gamedom to slap around their great eye-coordination and quick fingers, why can't we have at least one genre for us slow old bastards?

    This is the reason mmorpgs suck these days...

    Yeah!

    Wow mmorpg 2014 here.

  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rayshe
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar
    Originally posted by Dauntis

    Anyone else tired of people clammoring for twitch combat in MMORPGs?

    Why should my geared out supposably awesome warrior have to depend on my keyboard skills in an RPG?

    Twitch players have all the rest of gamedom to slap around their great eye-coordination and quick fingers, why can't we have at least one genre for us slow old bastards?

    This is the reason mmorpgs suck these days... You want your awesome warrior to play by itself, this system only works for themeparks, in a sandbox you WANT twitch skill so it doesnt come down to a lvl 100 insta killing lvl 50-60 noobs, and gear doesnt make that big of a difference

    Not quite true, the only time Twitch skill will help you is when you know its coming. if you don't then something will one hit you without you even having time to piss yourself.

    your looking at this from the epic gear treadmill point of view... in a twitch skill based mmorpg, combat should be scaled where the strongest gear doesnt make you uber invincible 1 shotting everything, but give you a little more margin for error...

    of course in a pvp game theres always the chance of getting ambushed, its part of the fun, and there is a certain skill in avoiding them as well...

    Nothing compared to 2 idiots staring at each other while their virtual dice rolls decides the battle for them, oh and also with a million particle effects so it looks like your actually doing something....

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar

    Nothing compared to 2 idiots staring at each other while their virtual dice rolls decides the battle for them, oh and also with a million particle effects so it looks like your actually doing something....

    image

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon

    Twitch combat is heavy reliant on a good Computer and Connection, is the most targeted system for cheats anmd hacks, the least RPG frinedly system - its place is Action Games.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,223Member Uncommon

    I thought this was going to be a gripe session about TwitchTV. :p What is it lately with these weird threads where the OP wants choices removed for everyone else?

    I like action combat. That's what I call it, not twitch. The combat systems in these types of games also requires gear and character builds just like in traditional tab-target RNG dice roll combat. It's not purely twitch like action/platformer game play like on consoles. Action style combat can also have hard tab targeting like GW2, soft-lock targeting like Neverwinter, or free reticule combat with no locks. Some of my favorite systems are Neverwinter, Tera, and GW2. I also like Dragon's Prophet and RaiderZ.

    I also like dice-roll / RNG "tab-target" style combat. There isn't as much variation in this combat style, so a lot of games feel like they have very similar combat game play. Even so, I still like EQ2, Rift, and Aura Kingdom. This style of combat heavily relies on how skills feel to make it compelling.

    Turn-based combat is also fun. I'm not a one way only type of gamer. If you don't like a combat style play a different game.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    My theory is, it’s the failed FPS(twitch) gamers who want to see this combat style in RPGs.  They think they can beat old and slow RPG gamers at twitch.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 879Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LagKingBong

    There are plenty of turn-based MMO's [mod edit] Or chess. FFXIV, to start, is a super easy combat system requiring barely any coordination.

    Why do you think you are entitled to play role playing fighting games/hack-n-slashes created for skill-based players that expect to be able to dodge? Play pokemon, or several of the released RPGs/tacticalRPG requiring little or no skill. 

    [mod edit] 

    RPGs will never solely cater to older players that want a more casual experience, period. 

    I guarantee that if you tried playing any of those 'no skill' tactical RPGs, you'd be screaming on the forums for help in five minutes. No skill my ass. [mod edit] 

    Also, you must have played FFXIV for about five minutes to make such an idiotic statement. While it's not the most difficult MMO around, it most certainly isn't 'super easy'.

    [mod edit] 

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 956Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thorqemada

    Twitch combat is heavy reliant on a good Computer and Connection, is the most targeted system for cheats anmd hacks, the least RPG frinedly system - its place is Action Games.

    A most true statement, hear hear.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 879Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Konfess
    My theory is, it’s the failed FPS(twitch) gamers who want to see this combat style in RPGs.  They think they can beat old and slow RPG gamers at twitch.

    Hah! Reminds me of a John Steinbeck quote.

    "Never pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • LobotomistLobotomist ZagrebPosts: 5,063Member Uncommon

    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)

     

    Now if someone would come up with good turn based system  that is not pattern based....

     

     

    image

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon

    I wouldn't worry too much, Most of these so called "action games" are just cleverly concealed tab targeting.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


    Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • mayankingmayanking south houston, TXPosts: 162Member Uncommon
    turn based combat is like chess 5 on 5 communicating with teamates figuring out what debuff and buff to do and this and that is so great it's sad a mmo company hasn't tooken advantage of there not being one in the market.. Twitch based  doesn't take much skill jump spam same skill till u get the kill..
  • LagKingBongLagKingBong Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 54Member

    Ill just end with this: anyone who can't see the merit in both combat styles should seriously take the wool outta their eye sockets.

    Let the delusional people continue to offer shallow biases and oversimplifications to discredit each style. I'm gonna play chess then start up Coil again on this super hard FFXIV game. (lol)

     

     

    All twitch combat is just jumping, dashing and hitting. 

    All turn-based/slower combat systems don't allow for any skill to play into factor.

    Both statements are shallow and untrue. However, people should not expect a whole genre to commit to a less actiony style because "RPGs are catering to FPS players". SRPGs combat systems are probably the closest to my taste of action combat (Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Kingdom of Amalur), but we all have our own opinions. Don't try to put down others for having a certain preference.

    Edit: If some people find Final Fantasy 14: ARR hard, power to them. It's like getting high without smoking as much. I wish I could keep my buzz forever but unfortunately the combat system leaves me wanting more after maxing my SMN and clearing all the content. Not gonna happen 4 everyone, but I'll be damned if I settle for combat similar to FFXIV for the rest of my gaming career. 

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by LagKingBong

    Ill just end with this: anyone who can't see the merit in both combat styles should seriously take the wool outta their eye sockets.

    Let the delusional people continue to offer shallow biases and oversimplifications to discredit each style. I'm gonna play chess then start up Coil again on this super hard FFXIV game. (lol)

     

     

    All twitch combat is just jumping, dashing and hitting. 

    All turn-based/slower combat systems don't allow for any skill to play into factor.

    Both statements are shallow and untrue. However, people should not expect a whole genre to commit to a less actiony style because "RPGs are catering to FPS players". SRPGs combat systems are probably the closest to my taste of action combat (Dragon's Dogma, Dark Souls, Kingdom of Amalur), but we all have our own opinions. Don't try to put down others for having a certain preference.

    Edit: If some people find Final Fantasy 14: ARR hard, power to them. It's like getting high without smoking as much. I wish I could keep my buzz forever but unfortunately the combat system leaves me wanting more after maxing my SMN and clearing all the content. Not gonna happen 4 everyone, but I'll be damned if I settle for combat similar to FFXIV for the rest of my gaming career. 

    I enjoy FFXIV's combat. It certainly isn't twitch based, but you still have many abilties to use and situations to react to. FFXIV isn't currently that difficult outside of Turn 5, but not many people have turn 5 on farm yet and it's been out quite a while so obviously not the easiest game either.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


     

    Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

    You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


     

    Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

    You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

    Notice how he was replying to a post that stated twitch combat was more or less unpredictable.

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Posts: 878Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Infernaeon
    Sorry Greybush, but the days of over geared,stand there spamming 1111232111 are over as far as games from this decade are concerned..I am sure you rocked out in the 90's. Old timer..with your failing eye sight/hand coordination, can't keep up with the whippersnappers, so park it..The WoWtards and the new age failures that clutch onto EQ with dying breath will embrace you...don't chip a nail on your next playtime.

    There is a reason that the older MMO's lasted 10+ years and the new ones are lucky to last 10 months or even weeks child.  It is because we of the older generation worked for what we got and mastered complex mechanics.  We did not believe ourselves entitled to everything for free ten minutes ago like you lot do.  If you think that this post is condescending btw I simply answer like with like.

  • ThorqemadaThorqemada BerlinPosts: 1,277Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)

     

    Now if someone would come up with good turn based system  that is not pattern based....

     

     


    And Twitching offers even less choices while it is as repetitive if not more...
    The way combat is designed is simply boring and repetitive, it has nothing to do if it is "Turn Based" or "Twitch".
    TERA is said having Twitch combat and it is the most boring experience i ever had but TESO is not much better.
    Thoughtful and variable combat only happens in turn based or very slow paced combat systems.

    "Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

    MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
    Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


     

    Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

    You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

    Notice how he was replying to a post that stated twitch combat was more or less unpredictable.

    No, I agree with Lobotomist. Twitch combat does make things somewhat more "unpredictable". Non-twitch combat is more predictable and set in patterns in comparison.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,399Member Uncommon

    Good game developers provide challenging but achievable and rewarding goals for both the twitch crowd and the 'slow old bastards'.

  • JimmydeanJimmydean Ypsilanti, MIPosts: 1,270Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Jimmydean
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Lobotomist
    Let me explain you idea behind twitch combat in mmo. Maybe you be more receptive when you understand it :

     

     

    Combat is something you do over and over , for hundreds of thousands times in course mmo.

    Turn based combat can really easily be broken down into pattern. So let say for normal mob : 1 , 2 , 2 , 4 , 1 , 2 ...

    This turns into boredom. And since the combat is the majority of play , and its pattern repetition. Developers decided to make combat more twitch , because twitch is unpredictable (more or less)


     

    Playing a certain game that shall remain nameless, I can already see patterns in its "action combat" down to waiting 10 seconds then position myself correctly to interrupt a mobs aoe then back stab.

    You are fighting AI. You are bound to face patterns whether the game has twitch combat or no (duh).

    Notice how he was replying to a post that stated twitch combat was more or less unpredictable.

    No, I agree with Lobotomist. Twitch combat does make things somewhat more "unpredictable". Non-twitch combat is more predictable and set in patterns in comparison.

    Quite the opposite, in fact. Non-twitch combat is based on die-rolls based upon statistics. Even if you have a 99 percent chance to rol a 1-19, you can still roll a 20. Whereas in a twitch based game, every time that monster gets big and red, and you dodge it, you take all unpredictability and chance out of the equation. 100 percent of the time that you dodge an attack it will miss. Predictably.

  • DEAD.lineDEAD.line LisbonPosts: 424Member
    Originally posted by Dauntis

    Anyone else tired of people clammoring for twitch combat in MMORPGs?

    Why should my geared out supposably awesome warrior have to depend on my keyboard skills in an RPG?

    Twitch players have all the rest of gamedom to slap around their great eye-coordination and quick fingers, why can't we have at least one genre for us slow old bastards?

    RPG doesn't equal slow/fast/whatever combat.

    It's more of a mechanic that can be used with almost any genre. FPS is a combat style. Hack and slash is a combat style. 

    Infact, RPG have always been trying to make combat more twicth based, from the start. As technology as allowed it,devs have been trying to fuse the character development, leveling, etc, with a more action oriented combat mode.

    MMORPG's initially didn't have the tech to make combat fast paced, so, they used stat based. Slow paced fighting (maybe even turn based) is fine, but the truth is, the only reason why combat as remained this way is because, well, it had to.

    BTW, action combat doesn't mean lack of strategy for those that think so (not talking about you OP). You can mix strategic elements, even with a hack and slash/beat them up/etc.

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