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This Video is to Educate the Ignorant on MMO Graphics

WarjinWarjin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 1,215Member Uncommon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

 

In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

 

 

 

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Comments

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by Warjin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

     

    In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

    We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

     

    YouTube caps at 24 fps, just sayin.

     

    Game looks great for a 24 fps game!

     

    But then again gameplay > graphics

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  • MMO-RelicMMO-Relic Kirkland, WAPosts: 81Member
    Excellent post. :)

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  • TygranirTygranir Colordo Springs, COPosts: 741Member
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

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  • WarjinWarjin Harrisburg, PAPosts: 1,215Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    My guess is ESO wanted to make sure that RVR was playable on a broad range of computers, to date I don't think we have any MMO's out there that can handle this many players on one screen, maybe Plantside 2 but remember that game also has no NPC's, even PS2 character models look watered down to keep up with the player load, my bet if ESO was a pure PvE game they could of done better with the character models.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Warjin
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones. 

    That video makes such a weak sauce argument and relies heavily on the limitations of the gamebryo engine.

    The only argument worth merit is the item variants on player models.

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  • Sk1ppeRSk1ppeR PlovdivPosts: 511Member

    The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

     

    On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

     

    P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

  • skyline385skyline385 BangalorePosts: 564Member
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    Only Unreal Engine games (Tera, Blade and Soul) look better (but lack detailed foliage and the armors aren't textured as good as in ESO) from the ones already released. Black Desert uses it's own custom engine whereas there are some CryEngine games in development too. Bless Online uses the Unreal Engine as well.

    ESO looks beautiful especially in many later areas. Many people who claim otherwise seemingly come up with 10 year old MMOs as examples which leads me to believe that they are just the typical haters.

    image
  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon

    Holy crap . .you all do know the information in that video is false and untrue.

     

    I have to point out several things to explain why.

    First, A single player game lags with that many NPCs because YOUR computer has to process it ALL. Physics plays a major roll in why it lags when you kill NPC's. Has nothing to do with graphics. It's why he is able to handle it when they are alive, but not when he kills them due to ragdoll physics.  Second, Skyrim is a terrible example since it's game engine actually has loads of problems unless you use mods to fix such problems. It has really bad memory issues.

    As for MMO games, the server handles physics and NPCs and the game world, and all the events that are part of the game. Not your computer.

    The truth of the matter is a person can easily make an MMO just as graphical as a single player game, the issue occurs when you are trying to broaden your audience and make the game being able to be handled across many older systems. Graphics are handled locally. So if your computer can handle 100 detailed characters in a single player game, it can handle the same in an MMO.

    You want a good example? Planetside 2. That game did not skimp on graphics in the least bit.

     

    The real reason why most MMOs do not have all that great graphics has nothing to do with performance issues or it being impossible. It all has to do with broadening out your audience allowing more players to be able to play and being able to have more players appear on the screen all at once. You want to have 300 players battles? Well unless you want everyone playing to have some amazing computer, you are going to need to lower the quality of your graphics.

    Again, not that it's not possible, it's more of an issue of availability. You also have to remember ESO is on the newer consoles, which makes them very limited with how far they can push the graphics while still being able to obtain a certain amount of players on the screen at once.

    And please don't go and say that is what he said, because it isn't. All his reasoning for why was false. He was correct about the showing many characters on the screen is an issue, but again all his reasons and examples are incorrect.

     

    This is why you ask a game developer folks .. not some random youtuber who has no clue what he is talking about.

    Heck even some comments point out how he is wrong. >.>

     

    Edit: Oh also forgot to mention, in single player worlds your computer renders only what you can see, and the same goes with MMO worlds as well. Rendering out the world is done locally.  Your computer doesn't need to render the entire world and everything that is going on. Again the server processes all that information of what is going on. Not your computer.

  • skyline385skyline385 BangalorePosts: 564Member
    Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

    The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

     

    On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

     

    P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

    You are very wrong about Battlefield 4's network handling. The game is fun and all but their network code is terrible.

    Battlefield servers use a 10Hz tick rate which if i understand correctly means that the servers update themselves every 100ms. This is like FFXIV 250ms server response time. Compare that to CS:GO which has 64Hz and 128Hz tick rates on their servers.

    Dice themselves have admitted this and said that the game is built in such a way that it's not possible to correct it.

    Sources:

     

    Battlefield 4 Netcode - The Real Delay

     

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1xo8gf/battlefield_4_netcode_the_real_delay/

     

    DICE explains state of Battlefield 4 "netcode issues"

     

    DICE: you can never have “perfect” netcode in Battlefield 4

     

    The point is DICE themselves are saying that the game has netcode issues because it has to handle 64 players so this comes out as a limitation of the Frostbite engine itself. This essentially makes the engine useless for MMOs.

     

    image
  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 603Member Uncommon
    Quite a bit of BS here, even for mmorpg.com
  • NexusCZNexusCZ PraguePosts: 56Member

    Good laugh i had, op video delusional as f***.

     Not saying the game have bad graphics but what he is saying is complete garbage like the heroengine it was been already proven with different self-called supposed "aaa" titles which are in fact small instanced bullcrap which run and perform like poop.

  • skyline385skyline385 BangalorePosts: 564Member
    Originally posted by NexusCZ

    Good laugh i had, op video delusional as f***.

     
     Not saying the game have bad graphics but what he is saying is complete garbage like the heroengine it was been already proven with different self-called supposed "aaa" titles which are in fact small instanced bullcrap which run and perform like poop.

    Post your proofs next time. And no SWTOR doesn't count. It uses an Alpha version of the engine which was heavily customised by Bioware. It's so different from the Hero Engine that it can't even be updated to the final release.

    image
  • redbugredbug tallahassee, FLPosts: 169Member
    They sacrificed graphics in order to make there mega server dreams come true. The graphics in this game are average at best, if the fan boys like it though I guess its good enough. I suspect the majority of the people not complaining are the same people with outdated 17inch monitors and dual core computers.
  • NexusCZNexusCZ PraguePosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by Warjin

    In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

    Yes but not because mmo will somehow magically process rendering on server side like you saying in video had a good laugh at your very good knowledge.

     

    In fact it is because heroengine = complete garbage for kid devs period.

  • Randallt3mpRandallt3mp Menlo Park, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by redbug
    They sacrificed graphics in order to make there mega server dreams come true. The graphics in this game are average at best, if the fan boys like it though I guess its good enough. I suspect the majority of the people not complaining are the same people with outdated 17inch monitors and dual core computers.

    What mmo has or is capable of "much" better graphics?  
     

    Why do you think no MMO with BF3, Crysis, witcher quality graphics has been made yet?  Few people would be able to run it.  It's fine for single player or maybe up to 64 ppl in A SMALL MAP, but for a huge mmo? cmon.

    You can believe what you want, but If you are waiting for an MMO with that level of graphics that actually works well?  Well you are gonna be waiting for many years.  And even by then you are still going to say that those graphics aren't as good as the sp games graphics at that time.

    Some of us like playing mmos now or maybe within year or two so we are willing to accept lower than top grade graphics, which ESO still looks very good by the way and runs extrememly smooth.

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  • Sk1ppeRSk1ppeR PlovdivPosts: 511Member
    Originally posted by skyline385
    Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

    The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

     

    On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

     

    P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

    You are very wrong about Battlefield 4's network handling. The game is fun and all but their network code is terrible.

    Battlefield servers use a 10Hz tick rate which if i understand correctly means that the servers update themselves every 100ms. This is like FFXIV 250ms server response time. Compare that to CS:GO which has 64Hz and 128Hz tick rates on their servers.

    Dice themselves have admitted this and said that the game is built in such a way that it's not possible to correct it.

    Sources:

     

    Battlefield 4 Netcode - The Real Delay

     

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1xo8gf/battlefield_4_netcode_the_real_delay/

     

    DICE explains state of Battlefield 4 "netcode issues"

     

    DICE: you can never have “perfect” netcode in Battlefield 4

     

    The point is DICE themselves are saying that the game has netcode issues because it has to handle 64 players so this comes out as a limitation of the Frostbite engine itself. This essentially makes the engine useless for MMOs.

     

    Every online game has 100ms delay which is never accounted for because that's the standard. Its not just Battlefield or Counter Strike or final fantasy. The network engines are written with that in mind.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    Ithe graphics are in my opinion the best of  any MMO out there

    annimatioms are actually quite natural... Look at the 2 handed  annimations, if you ever wielded a battlehammer or a twohander you will recognise the annimations as realistic... 

    even the armor styles are to my taste..

     

    graphics have i proved greatly over the last few months, you should treat yourself to a gamepc and try next weekends beta on highest settings for yourself...  

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  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    Uh. I can't think of an MMO that looks better on my current system running ESO on Ultra High +. Maybe enlighten us into what games would look better? I have tried pretty much all the major MMO's that have come out in 14 years, I'm really excited to hear about one that looks that good if so!

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
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  • The game isn't even that ugly.  I don't get the gripe.  It runs nicely on max settings for me and looks pretty damn good.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Sk1ppeR
    Originally posted by skyline385
    Originally posted by Sk1ppeR

    The video is bullshit. This guy basically explains that a MMO client renders and load stuff you do not see, that's bullshit. Every modern game, especially ones done in Hero Engine render and load only what you see. Have you ever wondered why you get fps boost when you move your camera away from the fun stuff, for example looking backwards? Yeah...this guy is bullshit most of the time, however he does make some pretty strong points. MMOs are usually watered down because of the people that play them. I doubt anyone is playing battlefield 4 in a 4+ year old PC, while 4+ year old PCs are i suppose the norm in MMO. But yeah, take what this guy is saying with a bit of grain of salt. He's not completely right :) 

     

    On the other hand, I would love to see MMO being done in the latest Frostbite engine, that shit scales like a beast. Throw it an octa-core CPU and it will utilize it. Dual GPUs? No problem! And it's impressive, battlefield 4 with 64 players per map, with low ping, in an FPS ... given a first person shooter throws a lot more stuff on the network stack, the rate of commands alone is super high even if its just couple of bits going

     

    P.S: Lawl i just wasted my time writing this post ... OP next time please do check the comment section of the video before posting a video. 

    You are very wrong about Battlefield 4's network handling. The game is fun and all but their network code is terrible.

    Battlefield servers use a 10Hz tick rate which if i understand correctly means that the servers update themselves every 100ms. This is like FFXIV 250ms server response time. Compare that to CS:GO which has 64Hz and 128Hz tick rates on their servers.

    Dice themselves have admitted this and said that the game is built in such a way that it's not possible to correct it.

    Sources:

     

    Battlefield 4 Netcode - The Real Delay

     

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1xo8gf/battlefield_4_netcode_the_real_delay/

     

    DICE explains state of Battlefield 4 "netcode issues"

     

    DICE: you can never have “perfect” netcode in Battlefield 4

     

    The point is DICE themselves are saying that the game has netcode issues because it has to handle 64 players so this comes out as a limitation of the Frostbite engine itself. This essentially makes the engine useless for MMOs.

     

    Every online game has 100ms delay which is never accounted for because that's the standard. Its not just Battlefield or Counter Strike or final fantasy. The network engines are written with that in mind.

     

    Not sure if this is related, but human reaction time bottoms out at about 100ms.  That is the reaction time for putting your hand on a hot stove and pulling it back.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    Uh. I can't think of an MMO that looks better on my current system running ESO on Ultra High +. Maybe enlighten us into what games would look better? I have tried pretty much all the major MMO's that have come out in 14 years, I'm really excited to hear about one that looks that good if so!

    You know it is a matter of perception right? pointless to argue about this really. But if you want to know then an old game like AOC looks far better then ESO visually as well as in animations. Out of the current releases FFXIV again much better looking game both in animations and visuals.

    But like i said matter of perception and personal taste.

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  • Hehe AoC looks like ass now a days and the characters run like they've got a rod impaled up their asses.
  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member
    Originally posted by Warjin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYoLh0ajX9U

     

    In a nut shell, if you can run Skyrim on Ultra at 60 + FPS on your computer you will run ESO on Ultra at about 20-30 FPS, MMO's are a different beast, it can not be done with our current technology both on our end and server side.

    We might have Skyrim type graphics in a MMO running at 60 + FPS with 100 people playing in about 5-10 years, remember 15 years ago games like Ultima online took a desktop computer to run, now we can run Ultima even World of Warcraft on tables & smartphones.

     

     

     

     

    Before I upgraded my PC, I was running everything single video setting in ESO on Ultra, including Shadows, and ranging from 32 to 48 FPS.  I was still using a MB with the x58 chipset among other bottlenecks, in short I was hardly utilizing my video card.

    After my upgrade, I'm usually sitting at the 100FPS cap in ESO, dipping downwards in the high 70s in highly congested areas with a large amount of players + fighting.

     

    My point is, ESO's engine is the most optimized MMORPG engine I have ever seen.  Everyone in-game was amazed at how their PC could run it and how smooth it played, even at low FPS.

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  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by SwashBuccaneer
    Hehe AoC looks like ass now a days and the characters run like they've got a rod impaled up their asses.

    Hehe... i complete disagree..hehe!!

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Tygranir
    Doesn't explain why there are older MMOs that look much better with both graphics and animations than ESO though. Nice video, explains a few things nicely. Doesn't explain lackluster choices on what current tech CAN do.

    Uh. I can't think of an MMO that looks better on my current system running ESO on Ultra High +. Maybe enlighten us into what games would look better? I have tried pretty much all the major MMO's that have come out in 14 years, I'm really excited to hear about one that looks that good if so!

    You know it is a matter of perception right? pointless to argue about this really. But if you want to know then an old game like AOC looks far better then ESO visually as well as in animations. Out of the current releases FFXIV again much better looking game both in animations and visuals.

    But like i said matter of perception and personal taste.

    This is true, we'll just have to disagree I guess. FFXIV is the only one I can think of that I have played in the last few years that has comparable graphics, so you are right about that. I wouldn't even call either one better than the other because the art style is so much different.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
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