Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...
Does that about sum it up?
Sell me.
Best PvP I've played in a long time. I say that as a long term Darkfall Online (DF1 not DF:UW) player who is used to full loot FFA PvP.
The siege warfare is done extremely well.
The PvP is not based on AOE spam like in GW2. There are actually very few AOEs in the game.
The fact that everyone can stealth means that you are never safe anywhere since you don't know who is around. It also makes small scale PvP very viable. A group of 8-10 organized players can massacre groups of 30 or more when they have the element of surprise.
The map is HUGE. The spacing between keeps is large enough so that if you kill an attacker, it will take them a good few minutes to respawn and get back to the fight.
Emporer is an awesome mechanic that gives you something to strive for.
Hopefully there's more when the game releases too!
1) AoE spam is for noobs, no offense , combos however are for pros.
2) You seem to make TESO's stealth a good feature but somehow Gw2's perma stealth thieves are huge issue )
3) Sure, what about the shitton of soul gems that every self-respecting PvP play will be carrying with them?
4) It's pretty limited to the hardcore nolife min-maxers. 99% of the players will never get that.
5) Nope, what you see is what you get.
Just saw you wrote you've sunk some 200 hours in wvw and you think that somehow makes you a good WvW player...are you seriously stating this? o.O
Its funny watching all of you complaining about zergs bombing you within 30 seconds of flagging a keep/tower/camp/whatever ... it begs the question ... have you ever tried to flag more than 1 objective on the map, or you just throw your best at a single tower trying to smash its gates before the zerg gets to you? Let me tell you this, that is not a game's fault, it's your fault
You apparently lack reading comprehension, so I will not be taking the time to respond to this pile.
Zerging is considered "Teamwork" and "Organization" in MMO's. It basically follows the same flow as a raid. Bring as many people as you can and beat the s#i! outta someone..
The only formula to winning in pvp is a = b + x, where a is your army size and b is the enemies army size..
OP, it sounds like you are looking for game mechanics that actively discourage any sort of arbitrary number grouping.
The play space is built in such a way that 'zerging' keeps and strongholds do not always equal victory. I would dare to say most of the time, such a tactic is costly. There are places in which 'zergs' are pretty much impossible such as within public dungeons. And there are wide open spaces armies can battle it out.
Your responses are less "can a zerg be beaten by small groups?" and more "They should have X game mechanic to punish large groups." The answer to the former, as others have posted, is yes. To the latter, no. And why should there be?
At some point or another, any RvR type game with a large enough scale will become a zergfest...... at some level. I think that ESO has done a pretty good job of minimizing that as much as possible. I think there are plenty of PvP options regardless of your play style.
I hope Camelot Unchained is taking notes right now
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
You guys on the GW2 forums would have a cow when someone said people were trumping the game up in such a way. I thought it was just the haters who say stuff like that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Zerging is considered "Teamwork" and "Organization" in MMO's. It basically follows the same flow as a raid. Bring as many people as you can and beat the s#i! outta someone..
damn good answer when talking about group battles lol
To me it is a large group mowing down single players or small groups.
The siege battles are designed to be large scale. I don't consider an hour long keep battle between 2 or 3 factions consisting of 100 players on all sides a zerg. It is simply large scale combat.
There is a lot more to the pvp map than simply participating in large scale siege battles.
The fact alone that any class can stealth makes it very easy for a single player or small group to avoid being zerged if they see a large group rolling in the distance.
SOE changes name to Daybreak games, cause dey break games.
To me it is a large group mowing down single players or small groups.
The siege battles are designed to be large scale. I don't consider an hour long keep battle between 2 or 3 factions consisting of 100 players on all sides a zerg. It is simply large scale combat.
There is a lot more to the pvp map than simply participating in large scale siege battles.
The fact alone that any class can stealth makes it very easy for a single player or small group to avoid being zerged if they see a large group rolling in the distance.
Those will all end up being alpha primary type strategy though.
100 vs 100 always become 100 vs 1 x 100. Part of this is tied to PvE where everyone focuses on a boss or a primary target that is made 'hard' by making it a hit point wall that requires 6 or 12 people to chew on. It carries over to PvP.
No Dev can ever balance my character to take damage from 12 people so alpha or zerging will always work. It's why people do it.
I like to roll out with the zerg once and awhile but I really enjoy small stealth gank groups getting peeps here and there more. So you might see me helping the zerg you might not see me till its too late. Muhahaha!
What is the reward system like? How this game rewards players for accomplishments, will determine how much zerg there will be. If it works in player's favor and they get the most amount of credit for being in large groups, then that's what's going to happen despite what's possible and fun.
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
You guys on the GW2 forums would have a cow when someone said people were trumping the game up in such a way. I thought it was just the haters who say stuff like that?
One word - TOUCHE! Everyone on the ESO forum is grumpy because people are saying PvP will be zergy - Unless is it a defined PvP (like Halls of heros in GW1), it will be zergy.
When you get a large amount of player on one map, that is what happens. Guilds don't want to listen to guilds, etc. Coordination is out the window - it is hard to do and manage.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
So a smaller zerg?
I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.
He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?
/sigh
A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.
Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
So a smaller zerg?
I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.
He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?
/sigh
A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.
Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.
Another that doesn't understand the term or its origins.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
So a smaller zerg?
I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.
He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?
/sigh
A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.
Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.
Another that doesn't understand the term or its origins.
/sigh again.
The source was starcraft zergling rushes where masses of units overran fewer units. However, the CONCEPThas been around for much longer. It's just the word is more recognizable to gamers than military terminology. It has been expressed in the military world as force concentration. If you read the link in the very first paragraph you see a term I used earlier in the thread force multiplication via the use of geological features and fortifications.
Now if you're playing the starcraft series, then you can stick to the strict definition of 'zerg', but since we are obviously not, then it expands to the greater definition that all gamers have come to recognize, that of larger force beats smaller force if all other factors are equal.
As to my intent, the post was offered as a question, not a statement of fact. How so many are reacting to a question about a game in a gaming forum like I am hurting their little sister or kicking their dog amazes me. Isn't it possible to discuss a game without becoming emotional and defensive? Did they make the game? Then why are they defending it like it is a family member? (Or would they even defend a family member this strongly...)
Now that you're up to speed, I hope you can contribute to the thread productively, rather than attempting to derail it through the unrelated minutia of starcraft trivia. (unless of course that is precisely your intent)
That all being said and cleared up, here's a quote from Nietzsche for you:
“The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind.”
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
As to my intent, the post was offered as a question, not a statement of fact. How so many are reacting to a question about a game in a gaming forum like I am hurting their little sister or kicking their dog amazes me. Isn't it possible to discuss a game without becoming emotional and defensive? Did they make the game? Then why are they defending it like it is a family member? (Or would they even defend a family member this strongly...)
Sadly not here it seems. Humour it also seems to be frowned upon, wayyy too serious sometimes.
@Satarious No offense to you (such is the saying before someone tells you something unflattering lol) but I recall you specifically defending GW2 WvW in the same manner before it went live.
at the moment i'm almost tried to say that non said word in this post, ..... ahhh ZERG
what the matter with you guys? and pvp is all about what? people trying to give the best of them selfs in a game. So?!
I'm a bit worried when a game starts from the zero begining, i've done some start ups as most of you, and years ago was the comunity, then was the rush to cap lvl. If we try to play a bit, woud just be great. I'm really hoping this is a great game, with some bugs off, wiil one of the best i tried. Hope will be to you all.
You can play with a zerg - small group, or even venture out solo.
It's up to you.
Very large zergs (above 200 players) currently bring a huge lag spike with them - over 10seconds is what was reported - so bad that if you are a defender and the keep walls are down - the zerg will simply all roll in and due to lag being in seconds you won't have ANY chance of even get any attacks off before you die.
Now the zerg has the same latency issue - but due to larger numbers they will win as you can't use any defensive tactics in lag - larger numbers win.
It's a pretty serious issue that Zenimax will need to address somehow.
LOL , and not a week ago someone was boosting how ESO beats GW2 at WvW , and displays all characters and whatnot.
Now we know its all just hyped bull.
At least GW2 had time to fix the issue of players not displaying. Which they did in first time to eliminate above mentioned lag. Now GW2 has no lag and can display much more than 200 players.
But. As zerg goes. WvW PVP will always be about zerg. And objective flipping.
No WvW game never managed to eliminate that. From WAR to GW2 , and now ESO.
Dont fool yourself.
A. GW2 will lag its balls off if you have more then 60 people....200 Players would probably cause the Anet server to come through your monitor and punch you in the face.
B. The previous betas with large numbers of players on the map didn't result in the lag, Probably cause they were trying to stress the servers this time to over load them. That is where the lag was from, Not from FPS lag (which you'll get in GW2, to go a long with the actual server lag where you can't use any abilities at all but your 1 key)
If you want your guild store, you need to hold a keep. If your Emperor wants to stay Emperor, you gotta keep your keeps. If you don't want your PvP buffs to go away, you need to protect your muthafuggin Elder Scrolls, which means holding your bleeding keeps.
Killing players nets more Alliance Points than flipping a keep.
As far as I know, GW2 had exactly zero game play incentives to hold and defend a keep. ESO is not GW2.
21 months till Camelot unchained, speed classes, Good CC like DAOC. And also zergs.. but small groups will be able to take out uncoordinated large groups.
Speed classes = Zerg killer itself, because every group needs a speed class.
Comments
You apparently lack reading comprehension, so I will not be taking the time to respond to this pile.
Is ANY PvP anything more than zerg?
Zerging is considered "Teamwork" and "Organization" in MMO's. It basically follows the same flow as a raid. Bring as many people as you can and beat the s#i! outta someone..
The only formula to winning in pvp is a = b + x, where a is your army size and b is the enemies army size..
OP, it sounds like you are looking for game mechanics that actively discourage any sort of arbitrary number grouping.
The play space is built in such a way that 'zerging' keeps and strongholds do not always equal victory. I would dare to say most of the time, such a tactic is costly. There are places in which 'zergs' are pretty much impossible such as within public dungeons. And there are wide open spaces armies can battle it out.
Your responses are less "can a zerg be beaten by small groups?" and more "They should have X game mechanic to punish large groups." The answer to the former, as others have posted, is yes. To the latter, no. And why should there be?
At some point or another, any RvR type game with a large enough scale will become a zergfest...... at some level. I think that ESO has done a pretty good job of minimizing that as much as possible. I think there are plenty of PvP options regardless of your play style.
I hope Camelot Unchained is taking notes right now
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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You guys on the GW2 forums would have a cow when someone said people were trumping the game up in such a way. I thought it was just the haters who say stuff like that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
damn good answer when talking about group battles lol
What is your definition of zerg?
To me it is a large group mowing down single players or small groups.
The siege battles are designed to be large scale. I don't consider an hour long keep battle between 2 or 3 factions consisting of 100 players on all sides a zerg. It is simply large scale combat.
There is a lot more to the pvp map than simply participating in large scale siege battles.
The fact alone that any class can stealth makes it very easy for a single player or small group to avoid being zerged if they see a large group rolling in the distance.
Those will all end up being alpha primary type strategy though.
100 vs 100 always become 100 vs 1 x 100. Part of this is tied to PvE where everyone focuses on a boss or a primary target that is made 'hard' by making it a hit point wall that requires 6 or 12 people to chew on. It carries over to PvP.
No Dev can ever balance my character to take damage from 12 people so alpha or zerging will always work. It's why people do it.
One word - TOUCHE! Everyone on the ESO forum is grumpy because people are saying PvP will be zergy - Unless is it a defined PvP (like Halls of heros in GW1), it will be zergy.
When you get a large amount of player on one map, that is what happens. Guilds don't want to listen to guilds, etc. Coordination is out the window - it is hard to do and manage.
I'm starting to think the OP doesn't understand the term zerg.
He thinks a group of 4 is a zerg?
/sigh
A Zerg is any amount of players on one. That is the definition - it is about numbers not skill. If there are rewards for better armor that make people 'LEET' then the game will get zergy - that is what happened in Rift.
Get used to it. As I said, unless it is defined PvP, it will have zergs - period.
Another that doesn't understand the term or its origins.
/sigh again.
The source was starcraft zergling rushes where masses of units overran fewer units. However, the CONCEPT has been around for much longer. It's just the word is more recognizable to gamers than military terminology. It has been expressed in the military world as force concentration. If you read the link in the very first paragraph you see a term I used earlier in the thread force multiplication via the use of geological features and fortifications.
Now if you're playing the starcraft series, then you can stick to the strict definition of 'zerg', but since we are obviously not, then it expands to the greater definition that all gamers have come to recognize, that of larger force beats smaller force if all other factors are equal.
As to my intent, the post was offered as a question, not a statement of fact. How so many are reacting to a question about a game in a gaming forum like I am hurting their little sister or kicking their dog amazes me. Isn't it possible to discuss a game without becoming emotional and defensive? Did they make the game? Then why are they defending it like it is a family member? (Or would they even defend a family member this strongly...)
Now that you're up to speed, I hope you can contribute to the thread productively, rather than attempting to derail it through the unrelated minutia of starcraft trivia. (unless of course that is precisely your intent)
That all being said and cleared up, here's a quote from Nietzsche for you:
“The snake which cannot cast its skin has to die. As well the minds which are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be mind.”
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Sadly not here it seems. Humour it also seems to be frowned upon, wayyy too serious sometimes.
No offense to you (such is the saying before someone tells you something unflattering lol) but I recall you specifically defending GW2 WvW in the same manner before it went live.
at the moment i'm almost tried to say that non said word in this post, ..... ahhh ZERG
what the matter with you guys? and pvp is all about what? people trying to give the best of them selfs in a game. So?!
I'm a bit worried when a game starts from the zero begining, i've done some start ups as most of you, and years ago was the comunity, then was the rush to cap lvl. If we try to play a bit, woud just be great. I'm really hoping this is a great game, with some bugs off, wiil one of the best i tried. Hope will be to you all.
Just get a beta key for the next beta weekend and find out.
The game offers all kind of pvp gameplay from 1v1, small to medium group pvp and mass pvp.
A. GW2 will lag its balls off if you have more then 60 people....200 Players would probably cause the Anet server to come through your monitor and punch you in the face.
B. The previous betas with large numbers of players on the map didn't result in the lag, Probably cause they were trying to stress the servers this time to over load them. That is where the lag was from, Not from FPS lag (which you'll get in GW2, to go a long with the actual server lag where you can't use any abilities at all but your 1 key)
A few things people don't realize.
If you want your guild store, you need to hold a keep. If your Emperor wants to stay Emperor, you gotta keep your keeps. If you don't want your PvP buffs to go away, you need to protect your muthafuggin Elder Scrolls, which means holding your bleeding keeps.
Killing players nets more Alliance Points than flipping a keep.
As far as I know, GW2 had exactly zero game play incentives to hold and defend a keep. ESO is not GW2.
That is all I have to say. Carry on.
21 months till Camelot unchained, speed classes, Good CC like DAOC. And also zergs.. but small groups will be able to take out uncoordinated large groups.
Speed classes = Zerg killer itself, because every group needs a speed class.