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Originally posted by shawnsum Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by shawnsum [mod edit]
That's the thing, if no one uses addons, you are going head to head. You all have the same interface to interact with. It's when you add the uses of addons that it becomes not ''head to head''. The one using the most complete set of addons will have an edge.
That's like using a spotter in baseball game to know what the pitcher is going to throw. So you can have all the information. Unless everyone uses the same addons, it becomes and advantage for someone.
I don't think anyone is against getting the information you are asking for, people are against the fact that not everyone will have it readily accessible in-game.
Originally posted by Massive9 Originally posted by Notimeforbs Originally posted by david31741 I don't have a bias either way. I can't see add-on's giving any real time combat advantage. All the real time combat info that you need to process is available via game graphics. The combat add-ons I saw were more distracting than anything. All I can see them as being good for is enhancement to gameplay such as map/crafting/gear etc. Also, Zeni could block any add-on it choose.
Power Gamers and hardcore PvPers/PvEers wouldn't use them if they didn't offer an advantage. They'll try to sell you on the idea that these add-ons do nothing... but... if they didn't do anything... then they wouldn't want them so bad.
After you point that out, they'll go to the default argument "You don't have to use them if you don't want to." Which is blatantly false. If you want to participate in PvP... you have to have these add-ons, or you will be at an automatic disadvantage. So the idea of choice in this matter is actually a ruse.
Their last line of defense is to just call you stupid.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A game needs to have a hard UI ruleset that does not allow modifications. Either put the information in the stock UI or don't. It hardly matters either way. What you can't have is a system where everyone is using something different. It creates an automatic issue with game balance. There is simply no way to refute this no matter how hard anyone tries.
1. Thats nothing more than your opinion that a game should have a hard coded UI. I would have no problem at all with a hard coded UI if the developers were capable of giving us a UI that at the very least, met the requirements for the majority of cornerstone themepark functionality.
ESO's stock UI is a prime example of one of the worst MMORPG interfaces ever imo.
Want to know how close your target is to death? Just guess.
Want to know how much action bar your target has? Just guess.
Want to know if you OR your target have active buffs / debuffs? Just guess.
Want to see your targets cast bar so you can get the interupt timed correctly? Just guess.
Brilliant. actually the UI is brilliant... because in a real fight in the real world.... non of those indicators you wish for are availalbe... So why should they be available in an emulation on a PC?
2. The arguement "No one if forcing you to use them" is obviously not false. You are NOT being FORCED to use anything or do anything you don't choose to.
Actually.... the fact that he wants to be competitve is reason enough to feel forced to use these interfaces... while withouth any of these interfaces he would be just as competitve as other players withouth interfaces, this alone is a reason to get rid of a system where skill level is determined by immerion breaking interfaces... it does not fit the atmosphere they are so carefully trying to create..
I would use some addons but do you really think I can be bothered to go around scrutinising every mod released because I am FORCED to use it? Fuck no, there will be a few mods I use and loads I do not bother with.
Did you read that bit? I will CHOOSE not you use loads of the available mods and I will accept the fact that making that decision may put me at a slight disadvantage in the occasional, very situationall scenario....
So tell me again if mods FORCE everyone to use them....why am I not being FORCED to use all of them? Why has little old me been able to retain a semblence of free will in regard to this matter? We are FORCED to use them all are we not?
Could it be because there is no FORCED about it? Only your own personal CHOICES.
The fact of the matter is, you want to CHOOSE what is to you the moral high ground and not use them, but at the same time you WANT the benefits they bring to the gaming experience. You just dont want to ADMIT you want the benefits so you use rediculous sensationalism like saying you are FORCED to do this and that....really?
So is there like, literally someone with a gun to your head threatening you well being if you do not use mods in a video game?
No?.....Oh so you are not being forced to use addons then, right? Thanks for clarifying.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by Righteous_Rock Play the Ps4 version, chances are it's going to .el more polished on the ps4 anyhow.
Going to be both hilarious and sad if that turns out to be the case. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the console versions end up being the dominate market in the end. Since (for example) only 19% of the Skyrim copies were sold on PC.
Originally posted by Aulliwyn Originally posted by Xreeon I do NOT want to have to download third party add-ons and looking at the PvP beta videos it's clear they offer a significant, and unfair advantage. How about few Add-On disabled Cyrodiil to fight in - can this be done? [UNNECESSARY SPACE]
I saw some videos that gave rolling combat text. What were some others?
Thought I seen a buff/debuff notification.
Originally posted by Azoth Originally posted by shawnsum Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by shawnsum [mod edit]
But going in blindly head to head, which is what you would be doing if everyone used the game with it's default interface is rather, lets say...bland.
Because all the fight get's turned into is, who can nuke who faster. Their isn't anything tactical, no counter play or anything like that...it's purely just who can blow who's load faster and kill quicker.
With the information these few addons provide you actually see see what your enemy is doing, you can interrupt spell cast when they are casting or reflect spells back.
Idk..both sides seem to have valid arguments but it's just going to come down to personal preference because that is what a "User Interface" is, it's something the user wants.
Originally posted by shawnsum Originally posted by Azoth Originally posted by shawnsum Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by shawnsum [mod edit]
It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read.
Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing.
I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.
The support for Add-Ons in ESO is the only thing that keeps me from pre-ordering.
And i'm 99% certain that i'm not alone with this.
In PvP i want everyone to work with the same interface, everything else is simply bullshit.
So tell me again if mods FORCE everyone to use them....why am I not being FORCED to use all of them? Why has little old me been able to retain a semblence of free will in regard to this matter? We are FORCED to use them all are we not?
This would be sound-proof logic if you were actually talking about the topic on hand. No one said "forced to use every single mod". At all. What was said is that the more people use Custom UI, the more others will have to just to be able to compete with them. I'm guessing this comes in the form of PvP.
In PvP, if you don't have a custom UI, but your opponent does, do you honestly think it's a fair fight? Even if the person without a custom UI doesn't know their opponent has one, is it a fair fight? What if the person without a custom UI knows nothing of custom Ui's, and therefore cannot download one themself since they don't have any knowledge of it? There is no way this is considered a fair fight, as one half of the fight has no knowledge of the advantage the opponent has.
Also, if the ESO UI is a bad as you said it is, then you definitely have an advantage using Custom UI over the person who isn't.
Someone mentioned Custom UI is like Doping in Sports. I have to say, this is probably the most beautiful, accurate depiction on this topic.
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Originally posted by david31741 I can't see add-on's giving any real time combat advantage. All the real time combat info that you need to process is available via game graphics.
There are add-ons that:
1. Show enemy stats values for health, magicka, and stamina. Not available through default UI.
2. Flash a certain color when your opponent casts an interruptable ability. Not available through default UI.
3. Flash a certain color when you should block to stun your opponent. Not available through the default UI.
4. Tell you the numerical values of your own stats. Not available through the default UI.
5. Show buffs and debuffs on all players including yourself. Not available through the default UI.
6. Tell you when to cast certain abilities based on debuffs that are on your opponent. Not available through default UI.
7. Tell you when certain ability procs happen (such as Crystal Fragments). Not available through default UI.
Basically my point here is all of these things are required if you want to be a competitive and/or good PvPer. I'm not against it, I just think these things should be available through the default UI. Since they aren't available, it makes the add-ons that display these things required.
Originally posted by berenim We just do not know what Zenimax thought. Hell there are enough inventors who regret theior inventions in retrospective, because they were misused in their eyes. Also we do not know who is the majority of players, now who is the vocal minority. But the heat of discussion shows the sides wont be so far away in numbers...
Is there any person who can translate what the hell this guy just said?
Originally posted by indef Originally posted by berenim We just do not know what Zenimax thought. Hell there are enough inventors who regret theior inventions in retrospective, because they were misused in their eyes. Also we do not know who is the majority of players, now who is the vocal minority. But the heat of discussion shows the sides wont be so far away in numbers...
Imagine Mr. Miyagi saying that post out loud. It suddenly....makes sense. Holy crap!
That making mods available might or might not be a good idea ? Pretty straight forward to me ...
Originally posted by Azoth It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read. Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing. I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's actually nice to be able to debate with someone in a calm manner rather then starting a flame war. /Salute to you sir.
Everything you are saying has a very valid point and it's articulated well, but what you are explaining I believe would take a long long time for someone to truly master. Imagine the amount of time it would take to play through each of the roles, and then learn the builds associated with them to know the exact spell animations/attacks you need to be cautious of.
It's quite daunting if you really think about it, and let's face it, people are "use" to seeing what abilities the people they are fighting are using, they are use to seeing their opponents exact HP, resource and any other relevant stats/information.
With that being said when addons start popping up for this game (like they already have) that offer these things I am talking about, along with the devs supporting it all..this is what you get.
It will be standard to have the addons that provide this relevant information and their will always be the argument of "omg noob is using addons, not fair, screw this game, etc, etc, etc"
Originally posted by shawnsum Originally posted by Azoth It is not totally blindly tho, there are animations and they can be countered. I guess it does become a matter of preferences. You either get a more visceral fight with visual indicators. Or you get it written for you to read. Long casting stuff, you might not know exactly what is coming your way but you should know that it's most likely nothing good. With the pvp mod you see what your current target is trowing your way, but by focusing on that bar you are missing what the guy next to him is doing. I like the combat in Elder Scrolls game exactly for that, I don't read the stuff on a bar, I look at my opponents, it makes it a whole lot more immersive and fun to me. It's not the way I would play most other mmo as they aren't designed around it.
It's not the noobs you should be worried about using these addons.
I agree that it would take a long time, but that is exactly what I am looking for. I been playing rpgs for 20 years and mmorpg since UO. UO taught me tactical 1v1 PVP, EQ taught me patience and DAoC taught me group pvp.
For now the basic UI is perfect for pve, help make it more challenging not being told exactly when to block or when to interrupt and so making it more fun to me.
The pvp on the other hand is a different beast. If nothing change, I will download all those mods, just to be on equal ground with others using em. Not because it adds anything I want but because I don't like artificial disadvantage. I think it makes it all more bland and turn it into any other game out there. People will mod the game till it looks exactly like the other games they were playing before.
I just would hate for it to affect the way I like to play pve, which won't happen till devs design encounters that require more info than what is given with the basic UI.
It is not unfair if everyone has access to them.
It is not an opinion that they should have a hard coded UI. I've already shown very simply why add-ons in a multiplayer game ruins balance.
Not only is this an opinion of yours, by your own admission, but it is also an opinion that TESO UI should meet current MMO conventions in any way. These add-ons are unnecessary. We can tell that they are unnecessary, because Zenimax clearly didn't put them into the game in the first place. They left that up to the player discretion as something they might could have if they wanted it. Unfortunately, I've already shown to you how this "choice" is a ruse - you don't have a choice.
Most people run away when they are close to death.
Most people who are out of energy stop using abilities.
Knowing whether or not you have an active buff could be helpful. It's something that should be in the stock UI. But since it isn't... then everyone is in the same boat of not knowing. Moreover, you don't need that sort of information about your target. You only want it.
You can time the interrupt well enough by watching the animation - which is sort of the point.
If you want to compete in PvP you WILL use the add-ons... or you will die. No one will choose death - even out of principle. The reason they will die, is because these add-ons create an obvious advantage. This advantage makes the choice of not using them, completely out of the equation. Thus... you don't have a choice. You can play these fancy word games and scenarios all you want, but the choice is a ruse - like I've already said.
Originally posted by Laughing-man Originally posted by gonewild Yeah i agree that addons must be dissabled by zenimax
Considering there is a 'mod' button on the UI ready to go for launch, and that ZOS has said they are aware at how important a modding community is to an online game...
Never gunna happen.
It's not important at all, really. People will play a good game whether it has mod support or not.
Originally posted by Rattenmann I will not pay 15 bucks a month or play ESO at all if they DISALLOW addons in any area (including pvp). Why? I don't care if they give advantages. I hate the stock UI. I want more Info. Hell at least give me a freaking BUFF TIMER for MYSELF for gods sake. The UI is lacking so many baseline things that i am unwilling to play a game like this without addons. I do like the pvp tho, so ill be a sub paying guy for a while at least (if addons don't change haha). Stop crying about "advantages". Look at the stock UI and tell me that is fine for a MMO.
I think it works pretty well.
Arguing that more information should be a part of the stock UI is one thing. I could support that argument. I will not, however, support an argument of any kind for add-ons and modifications. Ever.
Originally posted by Massive9 Originally posted by Averum Ultimately the addon argument has been made. It has been shown that there is enough interest in an addon free area for it to be on the table. The original post is more about having the ruleset than it is arguing about addons all over again. If you want to do that you should probably be in the existing thread. So you are not repeating yourself again. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/405809/Will-ADDONS-kill-this-game-.html Back on the topic of addon free pvp campaigns. The browser for these campaigns appears to have a section on rules and Zenmax themselves have spoken on alternative rulesets in the past. Also there are already around 26 pvp campaigns - so the argument that is will fragment the player base to much is a tad off base. They already plan to fragment us. They already plan to have some form of rulesets. I will include a screenshot of the browser below and a link to the reddit topic on this. http://redd.it/1zkgde (70% like)
Ultimately the arguement for addons does not need to be made or justified.
Addon support via a comprehensive API and .LUA scripting has always been in the plan. It has been a stated design goal from the outset and (the remarkably poor default UI aside) the devs have certainly delivered on this commitment.
Those demanding that addons are removed or have some form of "Opt in" mechanism are actually the ones who need to make an arguement for thier personal desires as it is those that run in contradiction to that devs original vision for the game.
The argument against add-ons has been made, and it is pretty comprehensive.
When you allow add-ons, you create imbalance in the playerbase.
The option to use add-ons, is not an option, as without them, you are at an automatic disadvantage. Thus, making the choice to not use them hurts you. Meaning you only have one correct choice to make.
No one can refute this. Try all you want. You can't.
Originally posted by ShrewdDuck It is not unfair if everyone has access to them. un·fair ??n?fe(?)r/ 1.not based on or behaving according to the principles of equality and justice.
It is also not unfair if no one has access to them.
The easy fix to this is have the API filter out data on players from different factions. It leaves add-ons in the game for those that want to use them but doesn't allow for the abuse in PVP which is where the real concern seems to be anyways. The only question is will Zenimax do this?
I like the idea of add-on's in the game but agree that if you let PVP players get access to other faction character data they will abuse it in very unique and creative ways.
Originally posted by mbrodie Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by Massive9 Originally posted by Averum Originally posted by tmann50 So, basically...since a few of you don't want add-ons the vast majority who always use them should be screwed over to please you...that would be stupid in the extreme....
Statistically speaking with the sample sizes we are getting it is far more than a few currently.
However, what has been proposed does not screw addon users over in any way. Ultimately it would likely cut down on people attacking addons in the first place. Addons would be allowed in pve and they would be allowed on the majority of the pvp campaigns. People are simply asking for a selection of the pvp campaigns to be addon free.
This meets the goals of both groups.
The addon makers and addon users get to have what they desire and use it as they and Zenimax see fit.
The people not interested in addons can ignore them in pve and play the pvp campaign with the special ruleset.
This idea was brought up on the TC forums and the creator of Tamriel Foundry Combat (the addon being attacked the most) was on board with the idea.
Sounds like a fine solution I would be more than happy with that even though I would only be using a small amount of addons anyway
I do not think it will placate the anti addon crowd though. The only outcome they will seem to accept is the officially permitted use of a privacy addon that hides all API information relating to your character from everyone. This addon is apparently currently being tested and apparently works very well.
Coming from someone with a little bit of background in these things. I think that are pulling a fast one and that particular addon is just a bluff, it doesn't exist.
i have to agree, especially since there is no hook to block information... it would actually be a hack and that would be against TOS
i'm glad massive9 and averum get it though.. that addons wont break or kill the game and no one is being forced to use them, i spend hours arguing in the will addons kill this game thread... with one of the posters whom has popped up in here with his opinion and then tried to get me an infraction on the site, saying i was being "trolling and other things" to which after review from mmorpg.com they removed the warning, as they could see that he was being just as condescending and dismissive of my argument while trying to tell me i was being one sided and unopen to suggestion.
which is what i find funny, the anti-addon crowd is so narrow minded, but quick to judge and label peple who arent again addons.
Oh yeah... that was me.
I haven't said anything different in this thread, and I have managed to stay out of arguments like we had. I wonder why.
Also, I'm not closed minded. I actually like the idea of a different campaign setting. You should have brought it up before.
Originally posted by udon The easy fix to this is have the API filter out data on players from different factions. It leaves add-ons in the game for those that want to use them but doesn't allow for the abuse in PVP which is where the real concern seems to be anyways. The only question is will Zenimax do this? I like the idea of add-on's in the game but agree that if you let PVP players get access to other faction character data they will abuse it in very unique and creative ways.
While I would normally say that add-ons in general are a train-wreck waiting to happen in any manner, I suspect this could be something of a compromise.