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Why is it so hard to get PvP with PvE or vice versa to work?

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

     

    How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Man_of_LeisureMan_of_Leisure beaverton, ORPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.

     

    This pretty much exactly. The random element of a pvp encounter here and there makes a game far more fun. On the other hand there have to be consequences to keep these games from turning into gank fests.

    To me the ideal situation is where there are mechanisms in place that true criminals are treated like criminals. Guards attack you, trading with other players affects their criminal flags, etc.

    There should be no safe haven for those that do not offer safe haven. And I think this is where most games get it wrong.

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide GislavedPosts: 583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

     

    How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

     

    from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

    kek

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

    uh? Where do you get that?

    I am primary a pve player. Why would i go to a pvp server in the first place? It is not like there is a lack of pve games to play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Man_of_Leisure
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I don't want a pure PvP game, if I wanted that I would go play one of the many non MMO PvP style games out there like a LoL, FPS etc. I want to experience PvE content in a dynamic world where every player I see could be an ally or enemy and I don't know which it is until I interact with them. I want to have people I actively dislike becuase of their actions in the past as well as those who I have bonded with over the common goal of defeating enemy players.

     

    This pretty much exactly. The random element of a pvp encounter here and there makes a game far more fun. On the other hand there have to be consequences to keep these games from turning into gank fests.

    To me the ideal situation is where there are mechanisms in place that true criminals are treated like criminals. Guards attack you, trading with other players affects their criminal flags, etc.

    There should be no safe haven for those that do not offer safe haven. And I think this is where most games get it wrong.

    Fun is subjective. Games are not wrong .. they just don't cater to you. For me, a random pvp encounter make the game LESS fun. Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

     

  • Man_of_LeisureMan_of_Leisure beaverton, ORPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

     

    Awesome story, but this thread is about the combination of the two. Maybe you were confused since you're unable to understand a different playstyle co-existing with your own.

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide GislavedPosts: 583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

    uh? Where do you get that?

    I am primary a pve player. Why would i go to a pvp server in the first place? It is not like there is a lack of pve games to play.

    did i say everyone does? no. but the fact is that alot of you pve players( ones that are serious about their endgame) seek out pvp players because they are more comfortable in combat that requires situational awareness. i've been told this many times by them. that is why they join pvp servers and then go on complaining when pvp occurs.  

    kek

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Lazzaro

     


    Originally posted by k11keeper
    I have to agree with sanchi on this. More then balancing issues people just don't like getting ganked. It is never fun to be out doing what you planned to do just to have some guy come up and 1 or 2 shot you. Only to run back and have that same person do it over and over. 

     

    That is why I really liked the karma system in L2 it sort of kept that to a minimum while still having that thrill of it being a possibility. The cool thing was if someone went red people gathered together to hunt him down and you would get your revenge. Honestly if that game wasn't the grindiness of the grindys (and full of bots) I think that sort of system would have caught on and there would be more open world PvP games these days. 


     


    UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.

    There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.

    You miss the point.  People don't want to be targets at all.  They do not want to be involved in ganking at all.  They do not want to have to watch their backs at all.  Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.

    Ganking sucks.  People hate it.  That's the point.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 944Member Uncommon

    PVP doesnt get along with PVE because PVEers become the most juicy easiest targets of PVP players.  Many PVP players love the idea of the easy kill which is what a PVE player is.  The PVE players then end up getting killed 20 times for every time they kill a PVP player and constantly get set back as well.  Soooo... the PVE players become very unhappy at the joint relationship.

     

     

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon

    The very first design lesson for everyone designing a game, or even overall designing a product is, that you can't please everyone.

    So if your target audience are pve only player just design a pve only game. If your target audience are pvp only player just design a pvp only game. If your target audience are mixed player interested in both, design your game that way.

    The problem is, that almost all "big companies" want to please as many audiences as possible, because their reasoning is making as much money as possible.. and the result is more often than not, that they fuck it up and will upset either one or more audiences.

    And a lot of pvp players(or mixed players) are just fed with those attached pvp light experiences called battlegrounds, arenas or pvp servers with just pvp toggle on. And yeap.. even the seperate 3 faction zone is just a cheap solution.. although it is at least the best of those.

    And about the mixed solution.. you have really to differentiate here. What kind of pve do those people like, and what kind of pvp do those people like? Because in all honestly there are a bunch of different pve and pvp tastes out there.

    But there are really enough players out there to specialize and deliver different focused games to different core audiences.. maybe not a 200 million+ budget for every single audience, but more than enough.. especially as some audiences don't have a game, and withit you don't have much competition.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by centkin

    PVP doesnt get along with PVE because PVEers become the most juicy easiest targets of PVP players.  Many PVP players love the idea of the easy kill which is what a PVE player is.  The PVE players then end up getting killed 20 times for every time they kill a PVP player and constantly get set back as well.  Soooo... the PVE players become very unhappy at the joint relationship.

     

     

    Yeah it's a shame that it seems that the majority into PVP isn't really up to the challenge. They demand open world PVP/PVE game with full loot. But seem afraid if such a game has a flag system.

    To me a flag system would actually let those who are into PVP do just that atleast then it's challenging which in my opinion is what a true PVP'r wants. While there should be "war-zones"  not instanced where a player get's flagged by the game instead of choice just by entering that zone. For others there should be option to flag themself for WPVP. To unflag I feel there should be a timer, let's say it takes 6 hours real time to become neutral. According to reading many PVP oriented topics that should be a no issue for the true PVP player.

    A PVE player can attack a PVP player only at it's same level and should get him instant flagged and armor of a PVP player should be dominant against PVE gear, that way that PVE attack on a PVP player can not be exploited. Changing PVE to PVP should give a minute timer to change gear.

    Let's say this game is sandbox, so we have player city's. Same unflag rule of 6 hours. Think before going at War. Building the city should be done both flagged PVP for those looking for that challenge against other players or done mainly in PVE.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Man_of_Leisure
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Hence, i play mostly pve only games, and if i want pvp, i go to pvp only games.

     

    Awesome story, but this thread is about the combination of the two. Maybe you were confused since you're unable to understand a different playstyle co-existing with your own.

    Nah .. you are confused. The title of the topic is "Why is it so hard to get PvP with PvE or vice versa to work?"

    My playstyle is one solution ... don't get them to work together. Problem solved.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    The problem is, that almost all "big companies" want to please as many audiences as possible, because their reasoning is making as much money as possible.. and the result is more often than not, that they fuck it up and will upset either one or more audiences.

    Not blizz ...

    D3 - very much aimed for the hack-n-slash crowd

    Hearthstone - casual CCG crowd

    Heroes of the Storm - MOBA

    ... they did try to please many in WOW .. but at least that is not all they do. And certainly companies that make LoL and WoT (which are big now) are not aiming to please everyone.

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

     

    How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

     

    from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

     

    I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW.  I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them.  I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either.  Not even here, where all the complainers end up.  What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers.  But the actual players never show up.  The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.

     

    But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available?  Never.  They are like Bigfoot.  People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • LeonardoMystLeonardoMyst Keithville, LAPosts: 10Member

    My solution would be a rule-system where -

     

    Attacker strikes Defender.

    Defender gets stunned but cannot be killed.

    Attacker can then be killed.

    If Defender retaliates, they can then be killed.

    If any bystander strikes the Attacker (or the Defender) then they, too, can be killed.

     

    And/or...

    A bounty system where if a player attacks another player, their name goes on bounty board at a random time. Reward is 1/5th of attacker's worth (averaged from time of attack and time of capture). This includes money on hand, in bank and all items carried or equipped. If attacker is in a clan, this amount is doubled. This amount is then taken from Attacker (to pay fine) in either money or items. If attacker does not have enough money or items to pay fine, they receive an XP penalty until fine is paid.

  • StonesDKStonesDK SomewherePosts: 1,805Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

     

    How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

     

    from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

     

    I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW.  I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them.  I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either.  Not even here, where all the complainers end up.  What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers.  But the actual players never show up.  The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.

     

    But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available?  Never.  They are like Bigfoot.  People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.

     


    I've only experienced it in EQ back in the day but PvE players indeed complained on PvP servers when they were attacked. I've never experienced so much name calling in a game just for random pvp'ing (and i'm not talking about the usual pvp trashtalk). Mind you this is even with a restriction of 2 plus or minus levels between you and the other player.

     

    Granted this was between 00' -02' so the player mentality might have changed since then but I doubt it. On second thought It might considering this generation is fostered on MOBA's etc

  • PhoebesPhoebes Posts: 87Member Common
    What's wrong with games having pve servers and pvp servers? A lot of games do that and works out pretty well. Pvp'ers can have both pve and pvp all the time and pve'ers don't have to worry about being ganked. Would be kind of nice to have some non-instanced dungeons mixed in though.
  • IGaveUpIGaveUp NW, INPosts: 273Member
    Originally posted by Lazzaro

     

    UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.

    There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.

     

    Bingo, at least in my perspective.  That takes the fun out of slaughtering noobs.

  • hallucigenocidehallucigenocide GislavedPosts: 583Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by hallucigenocide

    this has been discussed way too many times tbh.. while the majority of the pve community wants nothing to do with pvp.. a big chunk of the pvp community enjoys both.

    worst examples of this are in WoW where pve only players join pvp servers just to play with more skilled players during end game. because they themselves found their peers to be quite bad when it comes to mobility and situational awareness etc.(some boss fights are'nt very nice against tunnel vision play)

    that in turn killed the pvp servers and now they're pretty much in the same format as the pve servers.

    But there is no reason why a player have to do pve and pvp in the same game.

    ofcourse not... that's why there used to be separate servers for both but the pve players tend to creep onto the pvp servers and demand that they do not have to partake in pvp.

     

    How in the world did you end up with such a distorted view of reality?

     

    from experience.. play games that have both and browse their forums. you'll see

     

    I've been playing the games for over ten years, including WoW.  I have seen many things, but PvE players on PvP servers complaining about PvP is not one of them.  I've never seen the PvP player complaining about the PvE content on PvE servers either.  Not even here, where all the complainers end up.  What I have seen, repeatedly, are people who say that PvP players complain about PvE servers and people who say that PvE players complain about PvP servers.  But the actual players never show up.  The one other thing I've seen are people who want a PvE version of a PvP game, like Darkfall or a FFA PvP version of a primarily PvE game like WoW.

     

    But the PvE/PvP player complaining about the opposite mechanics, when other options are available?  Never.  They are like Bigfoot.  People say they've seen them, but they never actually appear.

     

    i've seen it loads of times especially in WoW and in swtor. even seen some hilarious complaints like "just because i'm on a pvp server does'nt mean i should have to pvp"

    kek

  • karbonistakarbonista Berkeley, CAPosts: 78Member Uncommon

    I DO have the skill to avoid it.  It's called "Play a different game".

    Fighting against other players is not how I want to spend my time in-game.  You can make value judgments all you like, that makes me an inferior gamer or whatever.  IDGAF.  You do your thing and I'll do mine.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    I disagree.Pve and PvP are essentially two different type of games. There is no need to put them together and compromise.
    I actually agree with you here, nariusseldon :)

    The compromise usually hits BOTH types fairly hard.

    Pick one or the other. Focus on that mechanic. Polish that mechanic. Make it great.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Cephus404

    Originally posted by Lazzaro

    Originally posted by k11keeper
    I have to agree with sanchi on this. More then balancing issues people just don't like getting ganked. It is never fun to be out doing what you planned to do just to have some guy come up and 1 or 2 shot you. Only to run back and have that same person do it over and over.That is why I really liked the karma system in L2 it sort of kept that to a minimum while still having that thrill of it being a possibility. The cool thing was if someone went red people gathered together to hunt him down and you would get your revenge. Honestly if that game wasn't the grindiness of the grindys (and full of bots) I think that sort of system would have caught on and there would be more open world PvP games these days.
    UO did this with PK'ers. If you where red you couldn't go into towns or have people rez you unless they were red too.There are systems that would allow for people who do PK to have consequences for their actions.
    You miss the point.  People don't want to be targets at all.  They do not want to be involved in ganking at all.  They do not want to have to watch their backs at all.  Just because there is some system in place to punish people who gank down the line doesn't change the fact that people had to get ganked in the first place for them to get to that point.Ganking sucks.  People hate it.  That's the point.
    So true. I can watch 1 or 2 AI mob of higher level that will one-shot kill me, like in old EQ. What I can NOT do is watch about 100 players in the same zone with me while I PvE and wonder continuously, "Are they coming for me?"

    AI gank = *my* fault by not paying attention.
    Player gank = No fault of my own. More than likely, I will be at some disadvantage right off the bat when they attack.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I like the freedom to pick if I want to pve or pvp.

    If it's mixed, I'm forced to pve if i want to pvp, or forced to pvp if I want to pve.

     

  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon
    Lol player ganking is not your fault?? PvE ppl tend to have a really low perception of their pvp abilities that they think if theres OW pvp theyre only hope is to be used as target practice... Theres tons of ways you can minimize ganking, stop waiting till your down to 1 hp to heal while pveing, dont go afk in unguarded areas, etc.

    Actually a mob 1 shotting you is worse because your only fighting inflated hp points and dmg, where vs a player you got a chance to out smart them..
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,558Member Uncommon

    PvP'ers complain about their classes' stats vs. another classes' stats SOOOOOO MUCH they get the devs to change and gimp and alter until those of us who PvE can't kill a level 1 rabbit.  PvP is like a invasive virus designed to make everyone forget PvE exists.  The quality of the PvE world drops with all the devs running crazy to fix everything for the PvP'ers.  

     

    I might have been able to stand Aion's PvP world if they had let me ESCAPE the gankers.  I had a pill or cake or something that turned me into a lion or w/e and I used it often to run from one node to another gathering.  I was pretty fast.  I was happy.  Until some fucker came along and froze my ass repeatedly as I was trying to run away from her.  Why the fuck didn't she just let me go?  I wasn't engaging her in battle.  I was TRYING TO RUN AWAY!   If Aion had only made my cat-self immune to attack.  It wasn't like I could do any damage to anyone in a cat form anyway.  Then let me have a sprint and hide mode so she'd never find me.  Do you get it?  Some of us don't want to fight so why aren't you catering to us?  Why not make an animal form that helps us escape?  Because you just want to hurt someone and you don't give a damn about our opinions or game style.

     

    You PvP'ers don't role play.  If you really met someone in the wilderness could you just gun them down for no good reason?  You make no sense.  PvP story lines make no sense.  I'm not a murderer.  It's not how I act in real life and it's not how I want to act in a game world either.  Not even in war times!


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