I've been watching a few pvp streams today and guess what the main complaint has been so far? That's right lack of Ui functionality/feedback
But we don't need addons....right guys?
/sarcasm
and the one addon that provides is is being condemned by the other half because it shows a players HP, magika and stamina... because knowing that is going to make you better at avoiding and using your abilities... knowing someone else has 1/4 magika left is definitley gonna win me the match... thats kind of silly logic... if there is actual interrupt timers... and i'm not talking about a cast bar.. but interrupt timers or something sure that sounds like a disadvantage... but i like knowing what dots i have left on a target and knowing how long they have left, i also like knowing how much HP said target has left so i know what ability to use next... it's crazy
How in the world can ADD ONs kill a game? Cant think of a single MMO where they force them on you. Jeez, look at WoW. That game has the most ADD ONs of any MMO by far, and it doesnt look like they killed that game.
If you don't have to use them, then that means you don't need them. If I don't need them - you don't need them. And if you don't need them - then there is no point in having them in the game. This should be end of story, but you don't seem to get it.
i just wanted to bring a point to this. You dont have to use them does not mean you dont need them
1. Yes you can not use a combat parser and you dont need to use a combat parser, but i personally like to gauge my own damage and find out which builds i can get more damage out of etc, that doesnt make it wrong, nor does it make it bad not does it make it any less important to me then it is for people who dont want addons in game to not have addons. Just because it hasnt come included in the stock game also does not mean i dont need it... in my opinion, the game is more enjoyable to me if i have a combat parser at my disposal to parse different builds and see what i can get out of what.
how does me having this, affect your playing experience?
2. You're right, i dont need an addon to tell me my Health, Magika and Stamina... but i also dont like how the stock version looks, so yes for my playing experience, again to be enjoyable to me i like the addon i have installed which modifies my own player frames to look different.
How does me having this, affect your playing experience?
3. No i dont need an addon to give me some minor data text information... but i like having it
How does me having this, affect your playing experience?
4. I have another addon to track multiple quests on my screen instead of one at a time.
How does me having this, affect your playing experience?
at the end of the day, the addons i'm using arent harming the game, arent harming you, arent giving me an unfair advantage and it comes down to QOL, why should your quality of life experience be better then mine just because you feel the game shouldnt have addons because they arent stock in the UI so you dont need them. whatever my UI looks like doesnt affect you in the slightest and also i forgot i have scrolling combat text... i guess that gives me a major advantage.
Then we're in agreement - you don't need them... you want them. I already addressed this.
As for how your add-ons affect me - let me ask you something:
How do these add-ons affect you? Would you say it is a positive affect? Of course you would. It is obviously a positive affect, because why would you choose to have a negative affect? All of this stuff isn't preferable to you because you like it - no matter how much you want to convince me or anyone else. It's preferable to you because it makes you a better player, by your own admission - period. Not in the sense that you are "doing your homework" but in the sense that it makes you more efficient and all around more aware of everything. You are more powerful with this information on your screen, not to mention the fact that you have access to information that you wouldn't normally even have. It's exactly like having a mini-map with dots all over showing where bad-guys are vs not having one.
Now, my beef with this is not that it's unfair that you have this ability afforded to you. My beef with this is that in order to compete with you - I have to have this same set-up, or at least something with a similar affect. Since this entire ordeal is based on choice - and since my choice is just as valid as yours... I'd rather have the clutterless UI. But this clutterless UI handicaps me, because the choice that you made provides you with information that makes you more powerful. Your choice MAKES my choice a negative affect. And as I've already pointed out - why would anyone choose to have a negative affect?
This is how it affects me - I don't actually have a choice if I want to compete in PvP or participate in PvE. So this whole "you don't have to use them if you don't want to." argument is completely false. I'm still forced into playing the way YOU want the game to be played. I would rather that sort of authority be left to the Devs. You seem like a reasonable person. I'm certain if you could understand what I am saying here, you could agree that the Devs should have the only authority when determining what is best for all players.
I've said this a million times already. I don't care if this sort of thing is in the game or not. Put all this information on the HUD for all I care. Or don't - I would prefer that the Devs didn't, but whatever. They just need to pick a side and stick to it. What they can't do is put in the option to have add-ons. Why? Because the option to not use them is only going to hurt you, and the prospect of "choice" is a total ruse.
That's it. That's all there is to any of this. You just can't have add-ons. When you don't have add-ons, and you don't have the superficial notion of choice (which is clearly the case here) everyone's QOL is exactly the same. If you don't like the feature in the game - you don't have to play it. I've quit many games for all sorts of reasons. Everyone has. Why should this game pretend to be any different?
I think the game itself should provide you enough information that add-ons aren't important. I think addons mainly become a problem if one or more addons are considered mandatory and people kick others from their PvE or PvP groups because they don't have that addon. Or if an addon gives an unfair advantage beyond simple convenience. I don't know if this will be the case for ESO.
Some addons show you the magicka and stamina of your enemy and this is something the normal UI do not so it is pvp wise a great advantage, cause i know how much the enemy can heal or how much stamina is left for fleeing. Also i can see the number if hitpoints so i can decide if i attack or not the normal ui dont tell you the hit point number.
Addons, as in "possibility to change the UI to look like i want" will SAVE the game for ME. That and pvp being nice.
The game has nothing to offer otherwise. It is simply a game that is fun because you can mod it to a bearable point. The baseline UI is terrible.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Admittedly I only quickly read the first ten pages or so but getting that far into the discussion on the Tamriel Foundry site it seemd like the overwhelming majority were in favour of the PvP mod specifically...
So much for the uproar
This comment from one of the creators of the specific PvP mod in question is particularly interesting:
"Not only did ZOS allow it to be made, but they made the information available and actually help with add-on creation. Like I said in the beta forums, these add-ons aren’t hacks or ganking the system in any way. They were created with the assistance of the ZOS devs and with their full knowledge. This specific add-on has been used in beta for many months."
Naturally they are favor for it. That is the site that created it. Everyone there will defend it to the death. That site is basically the elitistjerks.com of ESO. They are here to win and they don't care who they step on or how they damage the game in the process.
Used a test version of the privacy mod in the beta over the weekend. It worked flawlessly in the testing we did.
It basically just doesn't allow other players to view any information about you other than name, level and health.
Thinking about it, is that LESS information than the default client makes available?
Not sure myself, but if name, level and health is LESS information that the default client makes available some could use that point to argue that the privacy mod is more of a hack / cheat than the PvP mod itself?
It's an interesting debate on where the line is drawn
Driz
It uses the same hooks as you view npcs in the game so it falls within the scope of fair play.
edit - At least I told you about it, imagine the pvp mods you are "not" aware of that are being privately developed for a select few. I know of one that is tenatively titled the emperor mod.
It uses the same hooks as you view npcs in the game so it falls within the scope of fair play.
edit - At least I told you about it, imagine the pvp mods you are "not" aware of that are being privately developed for a select few. I know of one that is tenatively titled the emperor mod.
Sounds like this will pretty quickly become a must have mod then everyone will be using to ensure a level playing field!!
This is why I think mods - aside from existing UI components resizing/repositioning - are a joke.
This mod (and probably others) is a "must have" that "everyone" should install? I agree.
But then why aren't ZO simply not adding the mod as part of the game UI so that truly "everyone" can benefit from the mod they "must have" (instead of allowing only some people to be aware of it since they display essential information).
As far as ZO being aware of the mods and "assisting in developing them", I don't even doubt this is true.
However that doesn't mean it wasn't a bad decision on their part (even big companies and players (!!!) can make mistakes).
Remember this: there are "closed betas" and "developers" working on every game that exists (pretty much) and making decisions for us (the crowd) all the time, yet not all these games are successes and many decisions made for us by those people in these games don't work out well in the end.
Player 1 - I want a bunch of extra information! I want charts and graphs and scrolling text. I want my interface covered in numbers! I want to know immediately when to counter. I want to know my enemies exact health, stamina and magicka to the exact number. I want I want I want I want.
Player 2 - I just want to play with the stock UI. I want the game to be fair. I wish I could disable you being able to see all my vitals on you screen like a readout from Star Trek.
Player 1 - I want a bunch of extra information! I want charts and graphs and scrolling text. I want my interface covered in numbers! I want to know immediately when to counter. I want to know my enemies exact health, stamina and magicka to the exact number. I want I want I want I want.
Player 2 - I just want to play with the stock UI. I want the game to be fair. I wish I could disable you being able to see all my vitals on you screen like a readout from Star Trek.
Player 1 - CHEATER
Except in the case of the privacy mod:
Player 1 is using existing, in game tools and content, devleoped and included by the devs in line with their stated design goalds in order enhance their gameplay experience and dislpay in game information that is viewable by design.
Player 2 is abusing the same systems to hide default game information that is viewable by design, in order to obtain an advantage not included in the games default mechanics.
Which sounds more like cheating to you?
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their health bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their action bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their cast bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their active buffs / debuffs.
This is how MMORPGs work.
"Viewable by design" is false, it is "possible to make it visible by design" and there are countermeasures by those who want even playfields and not being dorwned by a cluttered interface ( I found the minimalistic GUI pretty refreshing and immersing) and those countermeasures are also doable by design with the means the game offers. So what?
"I want to see you! Live with it! I want my advantage and numbers and yours, too! I can do that with the means of the API"
"Ok, so I will hide my Info to level the playfield again with the means of the API"
"CHEATER!"
And about "this is how MMORPGS work"... Not alway, not really, not need to. Things change, things evolve and we don't always like it. I do not like the obsession with "Personal story" and "cutscenes" but I will have to live with it. Adapt and live with the fact people do not like your way and will do what they can to not being sucked into Add-On-Mania and immersion destroying "play the ui number crunching"
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their health bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their action bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their cast bar.
Show me a themepark MMORPG that when I select a target doesn't show me their active buffs / debuffs.
This is how MMORPGs work.
I think you're going to be really sad when ZOS kills the ability for you to monitor other players' information.
People are posting macro script changes on reddit to the FTC mod that will auto-hotkey that precious information you crave.
The API is too open to abuse. It's been proven. It's going to be changed. Best to deal with that now.
Oh and ESO isn't just any other themepark MMORPG. Pointing to it and saying that it has to be like all the rest shows just how defeated the other side of the argument truly is.
Comments
I've been watching a few pvp streams today and guess what the main complaint has been so far? That's right lack of Ui functionality/feedback
But we don't need addons....right guys?
/sarcasm
and the one addon that provides is is being condemned by the other half because it shows a players HP, magika and stamina... because knowing that is going to make you better at avoiding and using your abilities... knowing someone else has 1/4 magika left is definitley gonna win me the match... thats kind of silly logic... if there is actual interrupt timers... and i'm not talking about a cast bar.. but interrupt timers or something sure that sounds like a disadvantage... but i like knowing what dots i have left on a target and knowing how long they have left, i also like knowing how much HP said target has left so i know what ability to use next... it's crazy
That is correct. Not needed. Those people don't need to play. They have Wildstar. Not everyone needs to be made happy;)
shame the devs dont agree with you and have an API with support for addons
Then we're in agreement - you don't need them... you want them. I already addressed this.
As for how your add-ons affect me - let me ask you something:
How do these add-ons affect you? Would you say it is a positive affect? Of course you would. It is obviously a positive affect, because why would you choose to have a negative affect? All of this stuff isn't preferable to you because you like it - no matter how much you want to convince me or anyone else. It's preferable to you because it makes you a better player, by your own admission - period. Not in the sense that you are "doing your homework" but in the sense that it makes you more efficient and all around more aware of everything. You are more powerful with this information on your screen, not to mention the fact that you have access to information that you wouldn't normally even have. It's exactly like having a mini-map with dots all over showing where bad-guys are vs not having one.
Now, my beef with this is not that it's unfair that you have this ability afforded to you. My beef with this is that in order to compete with you - I have to have this same set-up, or at least something with a similar affect. Since this entire ordeal is based on choice - and since my choice is just as valid as yours... I'd rather have the clutterless UI. But this clutterless UI handicaps me, because the choice that you made provides you with information that makes you more powerful. Your choice MAKES my choice a negative affect. And as I've already pointed out - why would anyone choose to have a negative affect?
This is how it affects me - I don't actually have a choice if I want to compete in PvP or participate in PvE. So this whole "you don't have to use them if you don't want to." argument is completely false. I'm still forced into playing the way YOU want the game to be played. I would rather that sort of authority be left to the Devs. You seem like a reasonable person. I'm certain if you could understand what I am saying here, you could agree that the Devs should have the only authority when determining what is best for all players.
I've said this a million times already. I don't care if this sort of thing is in the game or not. Put all this information on the HUD for all I care. Or don't - I would prefer that the Devs didn't, but whatever. They just need to pick a side and stick to it. What they can't do is put in the option to have add-ons. Why? Because the option to not use them is only going to hurt you, and the prospect of "choice" is a total ruse.
That's it. That's all there is to any of this. You just can't have add-ons. When you don't have add-ons, and you don't have the superficial notion of choice (which is clearly the case here) everyone's QOL is exactly the same. If you don't like the feature in the game - you don't have to play it. I've quit many games for all sorts of reasons. Everyone has. Why should this game pretend to be any different?
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/this-kind-of-add-on-cannot-be-allowed/
yes interesting debate
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think the game itself should provide you enough information that add-ons aren't important. I think addons mainly become a problem if one or more addons are considered mandatory and people kick others from their PvE or PvP groups because they don't have that addon. Or if an addon gives an unfair advantage beyond simple convenience. I don't know if this will be the case for ESO.
Some addons show you the magicka and stamina of your enemy and this is something the normal UI do not so it is pvp wise a great advantage, cause i know how much the enemy can heal or how much stamina is left for fleeing. Also i can see the number if hitpoints so i can decide if i attack or not the normal ui dont tell you the hit point number.
These Addons are a must have in PvP.
Addons, as in "possibility to change the UI to look like i want" will SAVE the game for ME. That and pvp being nice.
The game has nothing to offer otherwise. It is simply a game that is fun because you can mod it to a bearable point. The baseline UI is terrible.
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Naturally they are favor for it. That is the site that created it. Everyone there will defend it to the death. That site is basically the elitistjerks.com of ESO. They are here to win and they don't care who they step on or how they damage the game in the process.
Used a test version of the privacy mod in the beta over the weekend. It worked flawlessly in the testing we did.
It basically just doesn't allow other players to view any information about you other than name, level and health.
Life IS Feudal
It uses the same hooks as you view npcs in the game so it falls within the scope of fair play.
edit - At least I told you about it, imagine the pvp mods you are "not" aware of that are being privately developed for a select few. I know of one that is tenatively titled the emperor mod.
Life IS Feudal
You missed my edit. I am a little slow sometimes.
Life IS Feudal
Sign me up... Seriously...
This is why I think mods - aside from existing UI components resizing/repositioning - are a joke.
This mod (and probably others) is a "must have" that "everyone" should install? I agree.
But then why aren't ZO simply not adding the mod as part of the game UI so that truly "everyone" can benefit from the mod they "must have" (instead of allowing only some people to be aware of it since they display essential information).
As far as ZO being aware of the mods and "assisting in developing them", I don't even doubt this is true.
However that doesn't mean it wasn't a bad decision on their part (even big companies and players (!!!) can make mistakes).
Remember this: there are "closed betas" and "developers" working on every game that exists (pretty much) and making decisions for us (the crowd) all the time, yet not all these games are successes and many decisions made for us by those people in these games don't work out well in the end.
Can you believe someone said this is a cheat mod.
Oh the irony of that statement.
Life IS Feudal
I love the logic!
Player 1 - I want a bunch of extra information! I want charts and graphs and scrolling text. I want my interface covered in numbers! I want to know immediately when to counter. I want to know my enemies exact health, stamina and magicka to the exact number. I want I want I want I want.
Player 2 - I just want to play with the stock UI. I want the game to be fair. I wish I could disable you being able to see all my vitals on you screen like a readout from Star Trek.
Player 1 - CHEATER
I will hit on that one point with a very simple statement. Do you think developers do not make mistakes?
This is where the console version will shine!
Won't see any mods / addons featured in those versions
No reason to argue as there will be a fair playing field for all players.
"Viewable by design" is false, it is "possible to make it visible by design" and there are countermeasures by those who want even playfields and not being dorwned by a cluttered interface ( I found the minimalistic GUI pretty refreshing and immersing) and those countermeasures are also doable by design with the means the game offers. So what?
"I want to see you! Live with it! I want my advantage and numbers and yours, too! I can do that with the means of the API"
"Ok, so I will hide my Info to level the playfield again with the means of the API"
"CHEATER!"
And about "this is how MMORPGS work"... Not alway, not really, not need to. Things change, things evolve and we don't always like it. I do not like the obsession with "Personal story" and "cutscenes" but I will have to live with it. Adapt and live with the fact people do not like your way and will do what they can to not being sucked into Add-On-Mania and immersion destroying "play the ui number crunching"
I think you're going to be really sad when ZOS kills the ability for you to monitor other players' information.
People are posting macro script changes on reddit to the FTC mod that will auto-hotkey that precious information you crave.
The API is too open to abuse. It's been proven. It's going to be changed. Best to deal with that now.
Oh and ESO isn't just any other themepark MMORPG. Pointing to it and saying that it has to be like all the rest shows just how defeated the other side of the argument truly is.