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Will ADD-ONS kill this game?

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  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia

    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!

    My problem with this here is,  how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"

     

     

    Ramifications are also your opinion, the truth is in a pve environment band together with other likeminded people who don't mind using unoptimised specs and don't use combat parsers etc.... Play the game your way no one is forcing you to play with players who want to use add-ons.

    In PvP yeah I could see a potential issue, but what it matter if you have to install one add-on that essentially replaces your target frame to give you extra info... It's not gonna clutter your ui, if everyone has it anyway it's not a huge advantage and if you don't wanna use it you just gonna have to accept that people will.

    At the end of the day that poll sidenote people are in favor regardless of circumstance, players want it, some don't, devs put it in, add-ons are already developed so there must be a demand for it so live with it or don't play
  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!

    My problem with this here is,  how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"

     

    This is what I want to know as well.  This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.

    The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.

  • indefindef Thousand Oaks, CAPosts: 344Member Uncommon
    Would this be a bad thread to post in to say that one of the things I'm most excited for in ESO is writing addons for the game?
  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    Originally posted by mbrodie
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!

    My problem with this here is,  how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"

     

    This is what I want to know as well.  This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.

    The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.

     

    So even when the numbers aren't in your favor that means the majority is wrong, but when there is so many threads against it that's right... You can't have it both ways and by those numbers it shows that more people are in favor our dont care about add-ons... Maybe it's just time to realise that it's how it's gonna be

    I didn't say the majority was wrong.  I said they weren't always right, and they usually have loose justifications.

    Stop trolling.  Take your bad attitude somewhere else.

     

    Don't accuse Me of trolling or having a bad attitude just because I have a different opinion to you... That could be considered having a bad attitude n also I don't appreciate being called a troll because my opinion differs to yours...

    Also again trying to misuse semantics... Saying "I said they're not always right" is exact the same as you saying the majority is wrong... Because they don't agree with you... Are those people who votes on the poll also trolls n have a bad attitude because they too disagree with you?
  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by indef
    Would this be a bad thread to post in to say that one of the things I'm most excited for in ESO is writing addons for the game?

    Nah... it's a good thread.

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs

    Originally posted by indef
    Would this be a bad thread to post in to say that one of the things I'm most excited for in ESO is writing addons for the game?

    Nah... it's a good thread.

     

    Can't wait to see the contributions they make to customizing the game :)
  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!

    My problem with this here is,  how many of those voting actually understand the ramifications that come along with such a vote? How many know how detrimental this can be in the long run? How many are voting simply based on " TES SP games have add-ons, so we should get them to?"

     

    This is what I want to know as well.  This is the problem with a democratic process: the majority isn't always right, and they usually have some loose justifications.

    The majority is also the people who usually leave the game after the first month.

     

    So even when the numbers aren't in your favor that means the majority is wrong, but when there is so many threads against it that's right... You can't have it both ways and by those numbers it shows that more people are in favor our dont care about add-ons... Maybe it's just time to realise that it's how it's gonna be

    I didn't say the majority was wrong.  I said they weren't always right, and they usually have loose justifications.

    Stop trolling.  Take your bad attitude somewhere else.

     

    Don't accuse Me of trolling or having a bad attitude just because I have a different opinion to you... That could be considered having a bad attitude n also I don't appreciate being called a troll because my opinion differs to yours...

    I'm not calling you a troll because you have a different opinion.  I'm calling you a troll because you have a bad attitude and a closed ear to a civil discussion.  I ended my discussion with you, and started another with someone else.  You came back to me even worse this time by completely distorting what I clearly wrote.

    I will simply not tolerate your bad attitude and I cannot communicate with someone who refuses to meet me half way on anything.  If you can't even get straight what I am saying without distorting it to prove a point that you aren't even making, then what else besides a troll do you expect me to think of you as?

    I'm tired of being attacked by you over anything I bring up, and I'm simply not going to put up with it anymore.  There are other people in this thread for you to harass.  Go bother them.

    I've already said everything I am going to say to you.

    Have fun with the game.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wighty

    I also noticed a part of the UI that listed ADD ON's... I only hope this will not be the same nightmare, that it has created in other games...

    .....

    You mean like "killed" Wow? :-) 

  • Swids2010Swids2010 plymouthPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Wighty

     

    Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

     

    It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

    Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

    ESO already has scrolling combat text and modified health bars. I don't know about threat meters but if you can set up SCT you can probably make a DPS meter.

    That's funny because I was on twitch last night watching wildstar flicking between channels and didn't come across this once and actually having played the beta a couple times there was no indication of addons well yet anyway I imagine they will come. Don't mind dissing a game you don't like but outright lies that's just desperate

    image
  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Swids2010

    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Wighty
      Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.   It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

    Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

    ESO already has scrolling combat text and modified health bars. I don't know about threat meters but if you can set up SCT you can probably make a DPS meter.

    That's funny because I was on twitch last night watching wildstar flicking between channels and didn't come across this once and actually having played the beta a couple times there was no indication of addons well yet anyway I imagine they will come. Don't mind dissing a game you don't like but outright lies that's just desperate

     

    Incorrect there is an actual dedicated section on the wildstar beta forums for modding and add-on development... And there is also a lot of add-ons already developed for it but only one complete UI overhaul and it's still far from finished its called potatoUI... But the're is already add-ons for everything in wildstar even the devs have created add-ons for it lol
  • VveVVveV Murrieta, CAPosts: 220Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mbrodie
    Originally posted by Swids2010
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Wighty

     

    Before there were addons as such, you had some margin for error because you had to "figure it out"... situations were a bit more forgiving because the developers weren't challenged with having to create encounters where some mod is telling the player exactly what and how to do something. Encounters today feel like a country line dance where everyone moves in unison because they are told exactly how and where to move.

     

    It is almost a guarantee that Wildstar will follow the above "must have this addon to play this game" format, I just hope ESO limits what is possible with addons so the game doesn't become just another twtich style combat dance dance revolution simulator.

    Last night I dropped in on a WildStar steam where a person was using enough mods that the game was indistinguishable from WoW. (not intended as a knock on WS).

    ESO already has scrolling combat text and modified health bars. I don't know about threat meters but if you can set up SCT you can probably make a DPS meter.

    That's funny because I was on twitch last night watching wildstar flicking between channels and didn't come across this once and actually having played the beta a couple times there was no indication of addons well yet anyway I imagine they will come. Don't mind dissing a game you don't like but outright lies that's just desperate

     

    Incorrect there is an actual dedicated section on the wildstar beta forums for modding and add-on development... And there is also a lot of add-ons already developed for it but only one complete UI overhaul and it's still far from finished its called potatoUI... But the're is already add-ons for everything in wildstar even the devs have created add-ons for it lol

    ^ true,but i have no doubt that wildstar's add-ons will not be as "harmful" to the game as eso will be if they are even harmful at all.

    Why are you so irrelevant? >:)

  • JorendoJorendo EdePosts: 263Member

    So people don't want mods cause of all the "gearscore" and " dpsmeter" mods WoW has? Actually I'm glad TESO offers addon support. Heck that is also a huge part of Elder Scroll's. Beside being a big part of its SP brother. addons can do so much more then just some silly meters. In WoW many things that where added later on started their origin as addons. Like a simple thing as the dressing room so you can see how a item looks on you before you buy it. This was not in the Vanilla version, it took them a few years before they implemented it.

    Then there where tons of addons for RP players so they could make their own things where WoW didn't let you. Your own books, your own items that had effects (no healing and buffing that was impossible). A lot of things that made so many people happy. Yeah sure raiders got fecked with the meters, and its stupid how people look at your gear. Gear doesn't say a damn thing about your skills. Someone could have purchased a character from one of those goldselling companies who farmed it all for him. Then you got a highly specced, fully optimized geared tank....but the player itself doesn't know a thing about how to keep agro and what all his skills do cause he never leveled his character so its all new to him. And you pick that one over someone who been tanking for years already but doesn't has that one helmet yet that give you the extra stats you needed to match the score.

    Same example can be given for PvP, how often didn't get great geared people get butchered by lesser geared people who had great pvp skills but a lower lvl (pvp was each 10 levels in WoW).

     

    TESO doens't seem to be designed by the standard template when it comes to rolles. So gear will be different to begin with i think/hope. Time will tell but i doubt with the addons that you will get scenarios like in WoW. If they happen, just try to look for another group. Everyone will be on the same massive server, surely there are plenty of like minded people out there who refuse to use meters that tell others how great their gear is, what the boss is gonna do, adds 10 more arrows to point the way even though you could press M to open the map and see where you have to go to. Myself, i will stick to addons that bring more immersion to the game, if i get to buy this game cause I'm still doubting.

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by Jorendo

    So people don't want mods cause of all the "gearscore" and " dpsmeter" mods WoW has? Actually I'm glad TESO offers addon support. Heck that is also a huge part of Elder Scroll's. Beside being a big part of its SP brother. addons can do so much more then just some silly meters. In WoW many things that where added later on started their origin as addons. Like a simple thing as the dressing room so you can see how a item looks on you before you buy it. This was not in the Vanilla version, it took them a few years before they implemented it.

    Then there where tons of addons for RP players so they could make their own things where WoW didn't let you. Your own books, your own items that had effects (no healing and buffing that was impossible). A lot of things that made so many people happy. Yeah sure raiders got fecked with the meters, and its stupid how people look at your gear. Gear doesn't say a damn thing about your skills. Someone could have purchased a character from one of those goldselling companies who farmed it all for him. Then you got a highly specced, fully optimized geared tank....but the player itself doesn't know a thing about how to keep agro and what all his skills do cause he never leveled his character so its all new to him. And you pick that one over someone who been tanking for years already but doesn't has that one helmet yet that give you the extra stats you needed to match the score.

    Same example can be given for PvP, how often didn't get great geared people get butchered by lesser geared people who had great pvp skills but a lower lvl (pvp was each 10 levels in WoW).

     

    TESO doens't seem to be designed by the standard template when it comes to rolles. So gear will be different to begin with i think/hope. Time will tell but i doubt with the addons that you will get scenarios like in WoW. If they happen, just try to look for another group. Everyone will be on the same massive server, surely there are plenty of like minded people out there who refuse to use meters that tell others how great their gear is, what the boss is gonna do, adds 10 more arrows to point the way even though you could press M to open the map and see where you have to go to. Myself, i will stick to addons that bring more immersion to the game, if i get to buy this game cause I'm still doubting.

    I don't think anyone has said "no" to add-ons because they don't like Gear Score or DPS meters.  This is a distortion of the argument by people who aren't reading into the real argument.

    The problem isn't that these add-ons might be in the game.  The problem is that it creates a gap between players - where everyone is using a different UI set-up.  These UI set-ups will create advantages that the stock game doesn't allow.  It doesn't matter what add-ons are put into the game.  It's creating a different experience for each player.

    At that time, who do the developers develop for?  Do they balance future content for people using add-on assistance for Gear-Score so that it is more challenging?  How about for people who don't use it?  If you need that advantage to play the new content - then you aren't really sticking true to the idea that everyone can play how they want.

    It's putting a lot of mud into a situation that doesn't need to be muddy.  I think everyone could agree that if they would just either put these features into the game and leave it - then okay.  But if they want to stick to the philosophy they have sold the entire game on as a featureless UI... then okay.  Just stick with one and don't allow the mud.

    Any discussion going off-topic about why Gear-Score or DPS meters or anything else is necessary is not what anyone is actually saying.

  • mbrodiembrodie MelbournePosts: 1,008Member Uncommon
    I think allowing add-ons and customization is following their philosophy of "play how you want" as the previous poster stated, on a giant megaserver like their using I'm sure youll be able to find likeminded people... Secondly no developer has ever developed content around player created mods... That's disillusioned if you actually think that
  • EladiEladi ArnhemPosts: 1,100Member Uncommon

    Personaly I dont like DPS addons and sutch, Yet I dont realy care if others use them.  

    I never give a damn about anyone shouting for more dps anyway... dont like my work..fine i go play with someone else :P 

     

    The UI kinda needs addons to make it more user friendly.  

    A small invt bar where you can drop useable items. 

    Emotions have no UI page at all currently, a simple clickable list that you can enable and disable would be nice. 

    stuff like that can give users a better experience when playing the game. 

     

    on the tropic that it gives A unfair advantage.. I cant see how it can give any unfair advantage at all. sure it could have a  boss spawn timer but ..who cares.. the world is shared , not based on team damage. 

    it might have a dps meter.. but thats just a addon that destroys fun for most people, some like it, most avoid guilds who use them and the often pesky foul screaming raging "leaders" 

    Loot addons are not a issue,  they are just for the player and can't steal from others. 

     

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    add ons are terrible. Zenimax really needs to rethink allowing them. Add ons make people better players - forcing everyone else to get add ons or fall behind. Then your game ends up like add on management with tons of stuff on your screen.

    I realize lots of people will want them. But sometimes the people are just wrong.

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 817Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    Here is a direct quote from a programmer at a major ESO site discussing being able to access the api info referring to the "exact" pvp mod that has been mentioned here.

    Out of respect I will not link this site or poster but it is not that hard to find.

    " As a seasoned macro dev , I can tell you that if you give me info on a enemy player via api or even a graphic, I can hotspot that graphic and auto fire skills when needed. As it stands now I have totally owned because of this and sent videos to Z to help them see the need to tone back the enemy data that is exposed."

     

    How do you feel about that pvp ui mod now?

     

     

    The main issue are add-ons that will destroy ESO and here is the worst offender. A pvp cheat mod which has been even further altered by this person quoted above.

     

    PVP is the endgame and without a strong endgame subs will vanish. Sub vanish I don't know where ESO will go.

     

    I will not purchase until Zenimax communicates exactly what these add-ons are allowed to do and the scope of their use.

     

    edit- Don't get me wrong I love add-ons and the mods that allow the freedom to customize your ESO experience are great but add-ons such as above destroy games permanently damaging them if allow to be used.

  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon

    This does not bode well for the game. My old friend from EQ and I are going to be playing this game but for now we will stick to PvE I guess.

    image

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  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Amazing how we all got along just fine in Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies (and others)... Without needing things like combat parsers. I still see way to much "you know what game" mentality.
  • crasset15crasset15 TallinnPosts: 183Member

    Coming from TSW, I can say a DPS meter is absolutely necessary for endgame PvE. Most importantly, it helps compare my builds and tweak them to improve performance. Yeah, the most important thing about having a DPS meter isn't talking smack to everyone who has lower DPS than me, surprised?

    The only time I will talk to a teammate about their low DPS, is when we wipe a boss repeatedly and the only reason we are wiping is because that person is doing low dps. And most of those discussions are friendly and contain a few suggestions. Only rarely it gets nasty when the person doing low dps is also acting arrogant. In a game like TSW, it is a common sight in endgame dungeons to see people in equal gear as me, doing 25-40% of my DPS. 

    Not everyone is a 'clean' PvE player. There are a lot of freeloaders who will try to slip into a dungeon run that was clearly advertised for people who are higher geared than they are. Two ways to detect such people are inspecting their gear, or running a DPS meter. The worst situation is having a group with crappy performance and having absolutely no way of determining what the cause of it is.

  • AzzrasAzzras Loganville, GAPosts: 389Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Covet78
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    People have become overly spoiled with addons and mods.They also like to point fingers and say the developers should add all of this to the base UI. Plenty of MMOs get along fine without them and pretty much all single player titles lack such features.

    To me it looks like many players are just looking for an advantage over those around them. They want to see things others don't see. They want to be able to gauge every detail about other players character at a glance so they can pass judgement. They want to take shortcuts.

    Hopefully there is a happy middle ground somewhere... because no player should be forced to keep up with dozens of mods/addon and yes you are forced. WOW progressed to the point where you would be denied entry into groups without certain addons, you would be crippled in pvp without certain addons. You would be gauged by your gear due to addons.

    This is not the way any quality MMO should function.

    I find it funny when people say 'dozens' of addon's In wow, a hardcore raider doing heroic content would use 2 for raiding. the other mods would be for UI if they so desired. 

    Raiding mods in wow that most raid leaders wanted for a dps was DBM and a parser ex: recount.

    that's it. just those two. That is far from dozens.

    A lot of the other popular mods but by no means mandatory for heroic progression was healbot, unit frames like xpearl and shadoweduf. The threat mods like omen are not used anymore as there's no threat issues at all for tanks. The Dozens of mods someone may have maybe for modified UI. Like bagnon for their inventory (not needed in raiding), or one of many auction house mods.

    2 mods .... the rest is fluff not needed. I myself used the two mods, recount and dbm for raiding. I did have other mods, but those were just for UI reasons like bartender and quartz and bagnon. Not used for killing anything.

    2 mods....

     

    Love how people keep saying dozens. You aren't the only one, but you and others like you sure love stretching the truth to suit your agenda.

    To add to this, world first raiders do NOT use DBM because DBM doesn't have anything useful for them.  DBM is used by people who stand in the fire...DBM takes a while before it's updated for a new raid boss on Heroic difficulty.

    Now people do use addons like Vudoo (sp), Grid, healbot, etc.  All those addons do is allow you to arrange the raid frames of players and maybe bind keys and create macros easier (I said easier because WoW supports macros and keybinds without any addons).

    Really, I can't think of one addon that actually gives a top level player an advantage in WoW.  Most of the top level players, PvP and PvE only use damage meters and something to move their UI around with.  

    Remember, the more addons you use, the less stable and responsive the game can become.

    Anyway, can someone name an addon that gives a clear advantage in WoW for the top level players?

    image
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Slyther_Zero

    Sounds like they will be going against why they're trying to make the game with allowing add-ons in the game. Just get rid of them all together I say.

    The less UI the more immersive the game will feel.

    Watch this video from a dev, where he talks about the UI.
    Video Link

    They announced a fully modable UI through lua addons at the same time they officially announced the game back in 2012, so they really aren't going against anything at all, this was always the plan and is likely what enabled them to make such a limited UI in the first place

     

    You don't have to use the addons, the advantages they give are small, PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway and only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement

    Bad ideas and conflicting philosophies are always bad and conflicting no matter when they are announced.

    Having a moddable UI is a bad idea in an MMO - from day 1.

    Having a philosophy that allows you to experience the actual game without a UI is automatically undermined by allowing someone to change the UI to provide them with more information.  It's a solid black and white conflict of interest.  You can't have it both ways and expect everything to be normal.  Not identifying this simple truth is ridiculous.  Defending it under any circumstance is even more ridiculous.

    Fortunately, Zenimax is good about changing things people don't like or find stupid.  They've already done so with the lack of collision detection.  I'm pretty sure if enough people actually point out how ridiculous it is to presume add-ons won't change the game in a major way, they will hear it and fix it.  All it takes is for people who have understanding beyond their own motives to speak out about it.

    You still don't have an argument.  There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that having the ability to change your UI so drastically, will create a huge difference in how the game can be played to the extent that people who have more onscreen... will have a clear black and white advantage.  There is simply nothing you can say that changes that.  It's as guaranteed as slapping a stranger in the face and knowing they'll have something angry to say in response, if not outright slap you back.  Arguing against it is just stupid.

    Either make the UI have all this stuff on-screen to begin with... or don't.  Pick a side and stay there.  When you allow for both to happen simultaneously... you're going to have a world of problems.  But please... explain to everyone how that isn't the case.  And then we will again explain it to you how you are wrong.

     

    I love the way you use phrases like "a clear black and white advantage" When in reality the advantage is negligible and situational, and in a game where there are going to built in advantages/disadvantages for most fights in pvp anyway due to the scale.

     

    And you are right that the UI should have all this stuff built in as options, but as they don't they will NEED addons because the base UI is far too limited for a lot of players. It doesn't matter if you are OK with limitations that can gimp certain abilities/builds, or basic info like player stamina/magika levels, or even a basic combat log, there are many that those things are an issue for. If you haven't built these tools in game for launch you better make sure you allow the fans to fill those gaps (much like they do in all the single player tes games and other successful mmos) because as SWTOR has shown players wont wait around for you to do add it down the line

    Since you believe that the advantages are negligible... then it won't matter if they aren't in the game.  Since they don't do anything for you anyway... then there is no harm if they just weren't in the game to begin with, and didn't give you the option to add them.  Which leads me back to my original point:

    You don't need them.

    <---the point
    '

    '

    '

    '

    '

    '

    <------your head

     

    Just went sailing right over there didn't it?

    I didn't know you could draw.

    I must have missed your point because I was too busy making mine.  I apologize.  How rude of me.  Explain to me again why you need a "negligible" advantage in this game.

     

    No what you did was read my first line, couldn't argue with any of the actual points made in the rest of the post, so you latched onto the first line to shoehorn in a completely unrelated point.

    Whether they give a negligible advantage or not is besides the point, the point is that the base UI is far too limited for a large portion of the mmo gaming population,its far more limited than UI's that have been completely ripped to shreds for being too limited by the mmo community, and you suggesting it will be fine this time because...well..... no other reason that you want it to be

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon

    The longer the goes on the more I enjoy a few simple things.

    Such as people trying to downplay this issue like it doesn't matter yet the thread has topped 4000 views, which is pretty huge for here.

    Then I have my reddit entry where a discussion is going on about limiting what the api/addons can do and 66% have upvoted it.

    So once more I feel like people are in favor of addons, but wish some of the api was closed. Several of the addon creators seem to be onboard with this as well.

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by deakon
     

    No what you did was read my first line, couldn't argue with any of the actual points made in the rest of the post, so you latched onto the first line to shoehorn in a completely unrelated point.

    Whether they give a negligible advantage or not is besides the point, the point is that the base UI is far too limited for a large portion of the mmo gaming population,its far more limited than UI's that have been completely ripped to shreds for being too limited by the mmo community, and you suggesting it will be fine this time because...well..... no other reason that you want it to be

    Yeah - I understood your point the first time.  All I said was "No... you don't need that."  All you've said in counterargument is "yes we do need it."  To which I then showed why you don't need it.

    So... I don't know what you're complaining about me "missing the point."  If you can justify needing something, I promise you it is just as easy for me to justify not needing it.  It's easy - all I have to say is "You don't need it."  I understand you want these features.  But you don't need them.  If you needed them, they would have already been in the stock game - which they aren't - which is why I can say "You don't need them."  My advice to you in that scenario would be to learn to play, or play something else.  It's not that hard.

    This is the point YOU are not getting - the problem has nothing to do with these features being in the game.  I don't care if they are in the game or not.  The problem is having multiple UI's with different features vs the stock UI being played in the same game.  You pretend like that doesn't matter with your "negligible" comments.  It does matter.  It matters quite a bit.  Which is why these features aren't "negligble".  If these features WERE "negligible" then you wouldn't want them so bad.  But since you insist they really are negligible, then we both agree - you don't need them.

    I read everything you write.  I don't stick to just the first point to piss you off.  I spend so much time destroying your first point that I get tired of going over this same crap with you over and over again.

    Here are your comments from above:

    1.  You don't have to use the addons

       If you don't have to use them, then that means you don't need them.  If I don't need them - you don't need them.  And if you don't need them - then there is no point in having them in the game.  This should be end of story, but you don't seem to get it.

    2.  the advantages they give are small

     This is the "negligible" argument all over again.  If they are really that small... then you can do without them, thus you don't need them.  But since we all know that they aren't that small, and that they make a huge deal - this information should either be in the game as stock or not at all.  Having half the community using them vs half the community not using them is what makes it an advantage in the first place.  And this is why you can't have this stuff as an add-on.  I don't know how plainer I can make this.

    3.  PvP wont be even sided 99% of the time anyway

      So that's a good reason to allow pseudo-hacks?  Allowing add-ons isn't going to even the playing field.  It's going to make it worse because you have too many people using different UI set-ups.  Some people will be using the pseudo-hacks and macros, made affordable to them by the add-on itself.  I don't care how good you think you are... you can't compete against a macro without using one yourself.  People use these for a reason - and it isn't because macros are negligible.

    If the numbers on the field are uneven, no amount of add-ons put in the game are going to alter that.

    4.  only the more hardcore guilds will have them as a requirement

      Which this is somewhat of a personal major concern of mine, it's really not a concern to the bigger picture.

    The bigger picture is this: the hardcore guilds are going to be better regardless.  Giving them access to this information (and everyone else) isn't going to change this.  The problem isn't that they have the information.  The problem is you have half the players using the stock UI, and the other half, not using it.  The problem is if you want to PvP - you have to put mods into your game if you want to be successful.  If you want to RAID, you have to use mods.  Not because you want to, but because the people who can't play without them force the devs to create content and balance passes based on them.  It will screw everything up.  It's happened so many times, in so many other games.

     

    Lastly, I seem to remember you bringing up that SWTOR failed because it didn't have a customizable UI and didn't give combat information.  To this, you're just being silly.  SWTOR had a million other problems, the least of which was this issue.

    Problems such as:

    lack of end-game content; Ilos was totally unplayable and pointless; the "stories" weren't up to the Bioware standard; the world design was linear and uninspiring; PvP lagged like crazy because the engine wasn't designed to handle what it was being used for; "space combat" was a single player rail shooter... in an MMO; the PvP Expertise system was a total mess; crafting was completely useless; the classes were supposed to be "mirrored" on both factions, but because of animations, the Empire had slight non-negligible advantages to their classes; you could reach max level in 2 weeks and then realize that end-game was non existent; Open World PvP was non-existent because there was absolutely nothing to fight over or reward for winning; friggin'.... Huttball was the center of all PvP; *sigh*....

    But no... SWTOR failed because you couldn't add a few more buttons on your screen and a combat log wasn't there.

    Sure....

     

    Did I miss anything?

  • DeddmeatDeddmeat StanwellPosts: 358Member Uncommon

    Another reason was people complained about the feature where they had to go through dialouge with other players who wanted to read every bit of it when they didn't want to.

    A feature that at launch they thought was ground breaking. Til they had to use it more than a few times ofcourse, then it was a pita and game-breaking ;-)

    Another was limited choice in weapons, in that if you wanted to go double bladed lightsaber you were sent down 1 path. Which tended to suck when you'd been thinking of a pebble throwing (another sucky feature, they could have done better) jedi, wielding a double-bladed saber to find it was on a tree you didn't want use.

    It's a decent game don't get me wrong but they could have done better if they'd made a few adjustments, myself i like reading the chat of the npc's

    Since I don't use mods i never knew they weren't in SWTOR lol

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