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Solo Raiding. Who wants it?

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  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member
    Originally posted by quixadhal

    If you want a "solo dungeon" for "endgame", why not just play a single player game?  The whole point of an MMO is to, you know, play with other people?

     

    Let me do a short commentary on this.  Since this is probably at the heart of end game progression and solo/single player gameplay.

     

    Single player gamers.

    There is alot of single player gamers, way more then MMO gamers and dont like MMO's.  One of the main reasons for this isnt because they only want to play solo.  Its because they enjoy the ability to be able to see a storyline and always progress in the game to the end of it.   Then they buy the next game to finish that.   They are the purest form of a solo player that needs constant game progression. 

     

    TES fans are single player gamers. 

    Skyrim sold over 20 million copies because most of TES fans are Single Player gamers.  If we really want that kind of sub base for ESO,  we should give these single players what they want.    A feeling of always feeling accomplishments in game and a game world they can play thier own playstyle, which is heavily solo.  This is why there should be end game progression solo and group (raiding) towards end game progression.

     

    Why TES fans wanted to have a Skyrim Online

    After Skyrims success, so many single players wanted a Skyrim Online,  because they wanted the single player experience shared with other players while hanging onto the ability to progress in a game world.   If you recall they actually had to lift the cap on Skyrims levels to 100 when it first got released because players did not want this end game progression experience to end.

     

    Conclusion.

    If a Single Player game company made a single player game where people stood around for days doing nothing is unacceptable,  why whould we also accept that as a norm in MMORPG games?   I truely think that if an MMORPG that wants as big of a base as thier single player games,  they need to have something for single player gamers playstyles to obtain those record numbers and keep them high.

     

    While I may be in the minority here in the MMO world, theres a massive player base in the single player game world that would turn people who think only 12+ person raids should get rewarded end game, into a quick minority.    Once a game company has enough courage to put in end progression for all types of game play will they truley see single player game numbers in their games.  ESO has a chance to do this right now.

  • keenberkeenber galwayPosts: 438Member
    Its a mmo come on guys . Try playing with others its a lot of fun.
  • flguy147flguy147 orlando, FLPosts: 375Member Uncommon
    I am one of those people who normally level solo and enjoy it but no to solo raiding.   I guess it kinda would be like the last part of the main quest line in AOC where you got the epic necklace or ring.   But I love group raiding and dungeons and don't want that to change. 
  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    Conclusion.

    If a Single Player game company made a single player game where people stood around for days doing nothing is unacceptable,  why whould we also accept that as a norm in MMORPG games?  

    In single-player games, if you're done all the solo player content, you're finished and go buy another game OR if you really like it, you reroll as another character.  Both of those options are available to MMO players.   The only difference in an MMO, is that there is a myriad of ADDITIONAL gameplay options for those that are willing to play with others.

     

    Pretty much ANY themepark MMO has tons more solo content than a single-player game has TOTAL content.    Take for example the KOTOR games (which has like 30 hours of solo-content) and compare to (only) the solo content in SWTOR (which is like 100-200 hours).    Not only does SWTOR give you more solo content than KOTOR, it also gives you EVEN MORE content if you're willing to group with others.  

     

    Solo content just doesn't have the replay power.    The main reason it's not fun to do the same dungeon over and over solo is because you're doing it solo, so it's always the same.    The developers can't even keep up with how fast people go through the (much more replayable) group and raid content, with solo content, it just wouldn't be possible to make enough.  

     

    One thing that works fairly well for solo content is player-made dungeons.  With a well-designed system (like the one in Neverwinter) that also interacts with the main game (by having player-made content provide currency for main-game use), you have an almost unlimited amount of solo content that people make for each other.  

     

    Another thing that works in companions / mercenaries.  This allows solo players EVENTUALLY do the group content on their own.  Probably when they're past the level.  

     

    Another thing that works is creating solo versions of all the dungeons.  DDO was the first game that really did this, but others do too these days, like EQ2 , last expansion added like 9 group instances, of them 8 are available in solo versions. 

     

    So there are a few ways to include more content for solo players.  But at the end of the day, i think there is only so much that DEVs should  do to appease the people that are basically refusing to partake in part of the game.     At the point where making solo content becomes the main priority for the development team, they should just make a single-player game. 

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
    Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 808Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Knotwood
    Originally posted by quixadhal

    If you want a "solo dungeon" for "endgame", why not just play a single player game?  The whole point of an MMO is to, you know, play with other people?

     

    Let me do a short commentary on this.  Since this is probably at the heart of end game progression and solo/single player gameplay.

     

    Single player gamers.

    There is alot of single player gamers, way more then MMO gamers and dont like MMO's.  One of the main reasons for this isnt because they all want to play solo.  Its because they enjoy the ability to be able to see a storyline and always progress in the game to the end of it.   Then they buy the next game to finish that.   They are the purest form of a solo player. 

     

    TES fans are single player gamers. 

    Skyrim sold over 20 million copies because most of TES fans are Single Player gamers.  If we really want that kind of sub base for ESO,  we should give these single players what they want.    A feeling of always feeling accomplishments in game and a game world they can play thier own playstyle, which is heavily solo.  This is why there should be end game progression solo and group (raiding) towards end game progression.

     

    Why TES fans wanted to have a Skyrim Online

    After Skyrims success, so many single players wanted a Skyrim Online,  because they wanted the single player experience shared with other players while hanging onto the ability to progress in a game world.   If you recall they actually had to lift the cap on Skyrims levels to 100 when it first got released because players did not want this end game progression experience to end.

     

    Conclusion.

    If a Single Player game company made a single player game where people stood around for days doing nothing is unacceptable,  why whould we also accept that as a norm in MMORPG games?   I truely think that if an MMORPG that wants as big of a base as thier single player games,  they need to have something for single player gamers playstyles to obtain those record numbers and keep them high.

     

    While I may be in the minority here in the MMO world, theres a massive player base in the single player game world that would turn people who think only 12+ person raids should get rewarded end game, into a quick minority.    Once a game company has enough courage to put in end progression for all types of game play will they truley see single player game numbers in their games.  ESO has a chance to do this right now.

    Let me tell you something.. There's always been simulator games, you know, flight simulators, driving simulators, submarine simulators.. you name it. And i can safely say these games have never been what the majority of gamers like or want. Do you think the devs who made these games are morons, and didn't see how to maximize their profits? Surely would arcade games had been more profitable than the games nobody really likes.

    Single player games are great; they are made for one player, period. MMORPGs are made for 'massive amount of players', so they are not, i repeat, they are not made for a single player to play, and thus, different rules for design applies to MMORPGs.

    If the majority of gamers play single player games, that doesn't automatically mean every non-single player game should emulate the design of single player games. You see, they are meant to be *multi player games*. That's something you're not supposed to play alone and that is not soloable.

    It's truly great to have different types of games, so everyone can choose the one that suits for their own play style. Don't put them all into one mold, and presume everyone wants and likes to play the same game.

  • BaikalBaikal Chicago, TXPosts: 1,025Member

    No thanks.


    I'd rather see development time and dollars invested in content that is for groups of some sort. Smaller groups? Okay, I can deal with that, but adding content in a game aimed at masses that is designed for solo content? No thanks.

    As others have said small group is great, but solo...not so much.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,520Member Uncommon
    STO and NW have player created content (The Foundry) that comes very close to solo raiding.  It's one of the best ideas I've seen in MMO's.  Lots of variety created by players for players.

    "Change is the only constant."

  • KnotwoodKnotwood Missoula, MTPosts: 1,103Member

    Let me tell you another story here.   I went to some games leveling up fast as I could so our guild could raid, then knocking off a raid for 2-5 hours a week,  and the rest of the week?   I played solo.  

     

    Nothing to progress to, how does that translate into fun?   As a solo player for the majority of a week, I would like to have seen something there for me to do.    I guess I could craft, but what happens when I max that out?    Again the same problem, theres nothing to keep me in the game more then 2-5 hours of fun a week of actually progressing.   What shall we do.   Did I want to run dungeons that rewarded me with less then the best gear?  Of course not, it was considered a waste of time like a max character running a level 5 dungeon over and over.   Where is the fun in not constantly progressing to a better character. 

     

    Some lazy developed games have AA points and CM point systems, I suppose you could call grinding mobs all week long as a progression, and its not fun progression like a dungeon or raid type style.   Its there, its boring, it makes you more powerful somehow for just grinding mobs in a field.   Thats not enough fun to keep anyone into a game,  People need some challenging content that is fun,  alot like what LOTRO skirmish system was like, and also gives progression toward end game reward or its pointless to even do it. 

     

    Theres a need of feeling you can progress end game, even if its at a very very slow rate.  Not as slow as FFXI,  but at a rate thats something will be obtainable after weeks of doing something.  Why shouldnt that something be something fun like Solo Raids or Group Raids for when you have no raiding going on for the rest of the week?     Why MUST it alway be 12+ or 50+ person content for you to even start to progress in end game?    Why cant I slowy continue to progress with 1-6 people when those 12-50+ raids are suffering downtime (which will be most of the week). 

     

    Number one reason people leave games...   "No or little progression options left"  "bordem".

     

    If you find that I SHOULD BE BORED for most of a weeks gameplay as acceptable for an MMO player,  how do you think a Single Player Gamer will react to hearing that?

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,622Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Knotwood

    Let me tell you another story here.   I went to some games leveling up fast as I could so our guild could raid, then knocking off a raid for 2-5 hours a week,  and the rest of the week?   I played solo.  

     

    Nothing to progress to, how does that translate into fun?   As a solo player for the majority of a week, I would like to have seen something there for me to do.    I guess I could craft, but what happens when I max that out?    Again the same problem, theres nothing to keep me in the game more then 2-5 hours of fun a week of actually progressing.   What shall we do.   Did I want to run dungeons that rewarded me with less then the best gear?  Of course not, it was considered a waste of time like a max character running a level 5 dungeon over and over.   Where is the fun in not constantly progressing to a better character. 

     

    Some lazy developed games have AA points and CM point systems, I suppose you could call grinding mobs all week long as a progression, and its not fun progression like a dungeon or raid type style.   Its there, its boring, it makes you more powerful somehow for just grinding mobs in a field.   Thats not enough fun to keep anyone into a game,  People need some challenging content that is fun,  alot like what LOTRO skirmish system was like, and also gives progression toward end game reward or its pointless to even do it. 

     

    Theres a need of feeling you can progress end game, even if its at a very very slow rate.  Not as slow as FFXI,  but at a rate thats something will be obtainable after weeks of doing something.  Why shouldnt that something be something fun like Solo Raids or Group Raids for when you have no raiding going on for the rest of the week?     Why MUST it alway be 12+ or 50+ person content for you to even start to progress in end game?    Why cant I slowy continue to progress with 1-6 people when those 12-50+ raids are suffering downtime (which will be most of the week). 

     

    Number one reason people leave games...   "No or little progression options left"  "bordem".

    Yeah. I forgot about LOTRO Skirmishes when I mentioned Rift Chronicles and WOW Scenarios. LOTRO is an even better example since it's solo + hirelings. I'm all for challenging variety at end game - large groups (Adventure Zones), standard sized trinity groups (expert dungeons) ... so why not solo also? 

     

    There are a lot of knee-jerk reactions in this thread that ignore the reality of MMO game play: sometimes we just have 30 minutes to play and a lot of games have nothing but crafting or grinding for those times. 

  • Ryoshi1Ryoshi1 Osaka, PAPosts: 139Member
    Solo... Raiding...
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    ^^ rpg and mmorgs used to offer glorious gradual enhancements to your char, but now modern players need to get rewards every other week. Rewards every other week is not slow it's fast, a reward that takes 6 months to get is deeply satisfying. Farming my quote of x over 2 weeks is not. Modern players don't want satisfaction they want instant gratification, or that's what they have learned in game.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    First we don't know what solo content may be a part of the Adventure zone. Second there are solo caves in the world now I believe. The 50+/50++ will have these same caves to find with level 50 mobs. I understand wanting long quest runs for optional solo play. But I think just adding in more content to all the factions will continue to give 50+ content.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Geebus80Geebus80 Calgary, ABPosts: 92Member

    So....you want games to be harder? or easy but with hard areas?

     

    Sorry but your never going to convince a dev of your idea if it is so unrefined and poorly communicated.

  • Lucid108Lucid108 RothburyPosts: 36Member

    You've probably seen the hobbit film where Bilbo goes under the mountain on a solo end game raid ?

     

    If you've read the book you probably know the original story is a little different.

     

     

    I like the idea I don't think equal rewards to a full scale raid.

     

    12 dwarfs and Bilbo can carry much treasure.  Bilbo alone gets far less.

     

    so I guess I agree with the OP depending on how its implemented. 

     

    I love fishing in WOW sometimes, MMO's have always had solo content.

  • toddzetoddze no where, OKPosts: 2,155Member
    I would be ok with solo "raiding"  but I cant for the life of me why people come to a multiplayer  game to play solo. Ive been trying to understand this concept for 6-8 years now. But anyways, back to the solo raiding, my only condition  would be, it must be challenging with harsh penalties for failing. If its just more easy mode rollercoaster, no, no and no.

    Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
    Now Playing: N/A
    Worst MMO: FFXIV
    Favorite MMO: FFXI

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by toddze
    I would be ok with solo "raiding"  but I cant for the life of me why people come to a multiplayer  game to play solo. Ive been trying to understand this concept for 6-8 years now. But anyways, back to the solo raiding, my only condition  would be, it must be challenging with harsh penalties for failing. If its just more easy mode rollercoaster, no, no and no.

    sometimes your friends aren't online when you play. this really hard solo dungeon sounds better than pugging.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • MithoronetteMithoronette Atlanta, GAPosts: 105Member

    Raiding...You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon

    Raid
    1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy something

    I think the OP understands what it means. it's others who think that the word Raid was invented by gamers that don't have a clue.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • quseioquseio stevens, PAPosts: 222Member
    no such thing as solo raiding means more than 1 group call it something else but def not raiding
  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by muffins89

    Raid
    1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy something

    I think the OP understands what it means. it's others who think that the word Raid was invented by gamers that don't have a clue.

    Notice the use of plurals in your definition?

     

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,284Member Uncommon

    Sure, why not?  As long as they don't allow for great rewards.  Wushu has reputation dungeons. You go to a real world, faction location, and say you want to challenge.  Each challenge has random bosses and random objectives.

     

    You can add all types of gameplay for this type of content. 

     

     

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Drakynn
    Originally posted by muffins89 Raid 1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy something I think the OP understands what it means. it's others who think that the word Raid was invented by gamers that don't have a clue.
    Notice the use of plurals in your definition?

     


    .....or any other force.....

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89

     


    Originally posted by toddze
    I would be ok with solo "raiding"  but I cant for the life of me why people come to a multiplayer  game to play solo. Ive been trying to understand this concept for 6-8 years now. But anyways, back to the solo raiding, my only condition  would be, it must be challenging with harsh penalties for failing. If its just more easy mode rollercoaster, no, no and no.

     

    sometimes your friends aren't online when you play. this really hard solo dungeon sounds better than pugging.

    Additionally, there's a large number of people who work odd hours, which still falls under the whole friends not online thing. Moreover, there are folks who like to game solo, especially if there is challenge to it, but your typical SPRG only has so many hours of content available before it runs dry. Also, when the stars align the typical soloer will be available for group content as well.

    Personally, I'd love super challenging solo content that acted as progression for more solo content. I could do my own thing, during my own time and on my own terms, especially as someone who works three 12 hour graveyard shifts every weekend.

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by muffins89
    Raid
    1.sudden attack: a sudden attack made by soldiers, aircraft, police, bandits, or any other force in an attempt to seize or destroy somethingI think the OP understands what it means. it's others who think that the word Raid was invented by gamers that don't have a clue.

    i already touched on this, by it's definition solo raiding is already in the game in 50+ and 50++ content.

    it doesn't mean hard content in the slightest, unless you are talking about mmo's only.

    then it means end game mass group content that's too hard for a small group to complete.


  • CalypsxCalypsx Brentwood, CAPosts: 38Member

    I personally want to be able to do every dungeon with just my boyfriend and I, or one other friend. I've wanted a multiplayer elder scrolls game for a long time but having more than 4 people on a team really stresses me out sometimes in other MMORPG's. A party of 4 is my personal favorite at its maximum. The huge raid thing has never appealed to me.

    A co-op 2 player dungeon feature would be ideal for me.

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