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Will ADD-ONS kill this game?

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Comments

  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    So my taste differs to yours it becomes "average"? Perhaps, as you are very much in a minority of those that have such a huge problem with addons, you are the one with only average taste?

     

    The vast majority of PvE players will be fine with it or wont have a preference either way. Almost ALL competetive PvPers will expect mods. I have no preference either way.

     

    I am just not so blinkered that I demand content and functionality is taken away from others simply because I do not see value in it. More options is always better than less options. To deny this is simply rediculous.

     

    How would you feel if people started petitioning the devs to remove content you especially enjoy simply because others do not enjoy it?

     

    Driz

    If this is your position you wouldn't mind my privacy mod then would you?

     

    It would allow complete freedom of use of these questionable cheat mods wouldn't you agree?

     

    I can categorically state that I would have absolutely zero problem with someone developing a privacy mod and you using it. Once more for clarity, zero problem. In fact more power to you.

     

    If I even buy the game and I chose to use some or all of the mods that are available and sanctioned within the ToS, I would be using them for my own benefit and no one elses.

     

    I could care less whether 1 or 1,000,000 people use them or don't use them. I PvP predominantly for fun and do not get caught up on HAVING to be elite...I just like the additional functionality that mods can provide, especially if the games default UI and combat feedback leaves much to be desired as ESO's seems to.

     

    What I take exception to is those that try and force others to "play it my way or not at all..."

     

    I think the one point we would not see eye to eye on is that I DO believe if everyone has access to the same options and opportunities, but you personally choose not to use them where others do, it is not the mod that is disadvantaging you. It is you that is choosing to disadvantage you.

     

    You cannot be at a dis-advantage when you have access to all of the exact same options and opportunities that 100% of the playerbase has access to. That IS a level playing field.

     

    Driz

  • VoiidiinVoiidiin Barrow, AKPosts: 817Member

    I quit Rift and WoW because of the unrealistic demand players made to others almost insisting on having ADD-ONs. 

    UI changes are ok but the DPS meters and gear checks were just garbage and ruined the community as a whole.

    Lolipops !

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    So my taste differs to yours it becomes "average"? Perhaps, as you are very much in a minority of those that have such a huge problem with addons, you are the one with only average taste?

     

    The vast majority of PvE players will be fine with it or wont have a preference either way. Almost ALL competetive PvPers will expect mods. I have no preference either way.

     

    I am just not so blinkered that I demand content and functionality is taken away from others simply because I do not see value in it. More options is always better than less options. To deny this is simply rediculous.

     

    How would you feel if people started petitioning the devs to remove content you especially enjoy simply because others do not enjoy it?

     

    If this is your position you wouldn't mind my privacy mod then would you?

     

    It would allow complete freedom of use of these questionable cheat mods wouldn't you agree?

     

    Problem is that is not possible and most people know it is not possible. So they can comment as they see fit.

  • ImperialSunImperialSun WorcesterPosts: 212Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    So my taste differs to yours it becomes "average"? Perhaps, as you are very much in a minority of those that have such a huge problem with addons, you are the one with only average taste?

     

    The vast majority of PvE players will be fine with it or wont have a preference either way. Almost ALL competetive PvPers will expect mods. I have no preference either way.

     

    I am just not so blinkered that I demand content and functionality is taken away from others simply because I do not see value in it. More options is always better than less options. To deny this is simply rediculous.

     

    How would you feel if people started petitioning the devs to remove content you especially enjoy simply because others do not enjoy it?

     

    If this is your position you wouldn't mind my privacy mod then would you?

     

    It would allow complete freedom of use of these questionable cheat mods wouldn't you agree?

     

    Problem is that is not possible and most people know it is not possible. So they can comment as they see fit.

     

    So everyone that disagrees with you, or has an alternative opinion is lying, as well as being thick.

     

    Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

     

    None of your objections or claims are quantifiable either, so by your rationale you can make up anything you want right?

     

    Driz

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ImperialSun
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by Saxx0n

    So my taste differs to yours it becomes "average"? Perhaps, as you are very much in a minority of those that have such a huge problem with addons, you are the one with only average taste?

     

    The vast majority of PvE players will be fine with it or wont have a preference either way. Almost ALL competetive PvPers will expect mods. I have no preference either way.

     

    I am just not so blinkered that I demand content and functionality is taken away from others simply because I do not see value in it. More options is always better than less options. To deny this is simply rediculous.

     

    How would you feel if people started petitioning the devs to remove content you especially enjoy simply because others do not enjoy it?

     

    If this is your position you wouldn't mind my privacy mod then would you?

     

    It would allow complete freedom of use of these questionable cheat mods wouldn't you agree?

     

    Problem is that is not possible and most people know it is not possible. So they can comment as they see fit.

     

    So everyone that disagrees with you, or has an alternative opinion is lying, as well as being thick.

     

    Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

     

    None of your objections or claims are quantifiable either, so by your rationale you can make up anything you want right?

     

    Nope that reply was to educate, so they understand how it works.
     

    Some may lie some may not. They need to be aware that you can't block any function of another person addon via an addon you are running.

    Makes it less of a talking point - since it isn't possible.

  • R.LimaR.Lima BrasPosts: 116Member Uncommon

    After reading a few posts, I have decided to write down an extensive breakdown of my point of view regarding this entire situation.

    Premise: Some add-ons, in their current state, allow the user to obtain information that would otherwise be impossible with the default UI. This creates a necessity for such add-ons as it provides an advantage in competitive play. This in turn leads players that want to remain competitive to have to use add-ons that may completely go against what the Elder Scrolls series is all about.

    Counterargument #1: If ESO does not have add-ons, if won't be Elder Scrolls-y.

    Retort: First of all, my premise does not say "every add-on", only ones that allow users to obtain information that would otherwise be impossible to acquire. I believe ESO should have add-ons, just not ones that provide a significant advantage in competitive play which generates a necessity. Namely, certain add-ons that allow users to see the enemy's exact amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina, the enemy's buffs/debuffs, and the cast bar and name of the spell/ability being used by the enemy are the focus of this discussion. These are things which simply are not shown with the default UI.

    In fact, the add-ons in question have no resemblance to any of the mods for Skyrim or Oblivion; they are much more akin to World of Warcraft or other games of the sort. However, ESO is an Elder Scrolls game, and the minute you generate a necessity for such add-ons to remain competitive, you absolutely hinder the Elder Scrolls portion of the game. Why? Because the series is all about immersion, it is about placing the player's focus on the world and on the action and not on the UI. This is largely achieved by having an extremely minimalistic UI, something ESO's default UI very much accomplishes. Yet, the developer's vision and work is absolutely put to waste the minute you introduce these add-ons, which are necessary to remain competitive. ESO goes from an Elder Scrolls-like game, where you watch the world and action, to a generic MMO-like game, where you watch UI bars go up and down. The add-ons in question absolutely clutter the screen with UI elements that have not even a remote similarity to what you see in any of the Elder Scrolls games, modded or not.

    Counterargument #2: If you think it makes your screen ugly and not immersive, don't use it.

    Retort: The problem with this mentality is that it does not address the entire competitive nature of an online game. In a game where players play with and against each other, competition and player interaction is everything. As such, the add-ons in question provide a clear advantage to its users, becoming a necessity for competitive play. They do this by providing information that would otherwise be inaccessible; information which is invaluable for maximizing combat efficiency. This is a problem because if you want to remain competitive, yet you want an Elder Scrolls-like experience, these two things conflict each other.

    Counterargument #3: If these add-ons, which give us all the information about our enemies, exist, it is because the developers allowed it.

    Retort: It is true that the developers are entirely responsible for this, for they allowed such add-ons to do these things. However, developers are also prone to making mistakes and taking bad calls. As such, if the developers are in a position to do something about it, then players have every right to voice their opinion and send forth their criticism in hopes of getting a response on the issue. In fact, I believe we as customers have an obligation to send them feedback to make this the best game possible. This has happened before, with first-person mode and collision detection, both which were not part of the first iterations of the game, but then later were made available due to the community's reaction. Therefore, we need to once again tell them how we feel and hope they have sound judgement to tackle the issue accordingly.

    My Proposal: With all that being said, I believe ZeniMax Online should seriously reconsider what can or can't be done with add-ons. All in all, I feel having add-ons in the game is important and should definitely happen, but they need to be restricted to showing only what the default UI can show. Meaning, any detailed information about the enemy, like how much magicka they have or their spell's cast time, should not be shown, for the default UI does not show this. Add-ons should not have an effect on game play balance, should not provide an advantage to users, and should most definitely not influence the competitive nature of the game.

  • BaikalBaikal Chicago, TXPosts: 1,025Member

    There is a serious lack of information about the addon's and it sure seems to be coloring people's perceptions. Proof that lack of facts is never a slow down for a debate...

    Start Here

    Specifically the Tamriel Foundry Combat Addon which most people are talking about.


    If you bother to read the thread, people who have worked on the creation of the addon, essentially worked with Zenimax to create this. Zenimax is only parceling out parts of the information that you'd get in other MMO's. What this means, is that right now, you can't write a script to have a character do "X" if a target does "Y". This eliminates things like a WoW Deadly Boss Mods, which was another thing people here are saying they don't want.

    No, it is not lazy development, nor is it a bad play for Zenimax to do it. If you further read that thread, someone make a good point, that if the floating numbers had been a part of the game, much of the feedback would have been that "this is not Elder Scroll's Enough". The stock UI is minimalist, that's good, it makes the Elder Scroll crowd feel right at home. Via addon, (and let's be honest, community made UI's are likely more popular than stock UI for a variety of reasons) people who are coming in with an MMO background are satisfied.

    So let's summarize...you get UI mods that have information that is already presented in the game. You get a minimalist stock UI for Elder Scrolls fans, and with Zenimax blocking some of the assets, you don't get the more obtrusive "Boss Mods", and "Play it for me" type of addon's.

    So really, what's the fuss about again?

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon

    Great post - Itherael

     

    Edit - cause formatting...

  • SolarRainSolarRain EastleighPosts: 32Member

    Personally I don't really care. But I do hope someone comes up with a replacement UI. The ESO UI is a godawful and uninspired, uninviting, lazy ass piece of shit. It was shit in Skyrim and it's still shit. I'm all for function and minimal design (which it does well), but I at least like a UI that looks pleasing, but most importantly appropriate, which here it definitely is not. The UI actually reminds me of modern military shooters, and it doesn't help immersion, it actually breaks it for me.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by cura
    Originally posted by deakon

    Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for.

    The only exception is de-buff timers, and tbh the games UI should be able to show this (along with combat info, scrolling or not) as standard just like every single successful mmo does. The fact that you can display this info in an easily readable way means that addons are a requirement for MANY people, and guess what they are completely optional too! So if you don't like it don't use it (like I say if you know what your looking at/for you have access to most the info anyway)

    Why do people spout that more options are good then turn around and say well if you want addons that option shouldn't be allowed?

    Are you really too stupid to understand what was said several times in this thread alone? People want leveled field of play without neccessity to clutter their interace with addons that give adventage to other people.

     

    Are you really too stupid to read the post you quoted?

     

    I will help by re-quoting them for you

     

    "Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for."

     

    The "clutter" is completely optional because the info that gives an "advantage to other people" is by and large already available in the base ui (buffs, debuffs, casting animations etc), you just need to know what you are looking for/at.

     

    So I ask again why should we be restricted on how we choose to show that info in a more readable (but less visually appealing) way, surely having the OPTION is a good thing, no?

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SolarRain

    Personally I don't really care. But I do hope someone comes up with a replacement UI. The ESO UI is a godawful and uninspired, uninviting, lazy ass piece of shit. It was shit in Skyrim and it's still shit. I'm all for function and minimal design (which it does well), but I at least like a UI that looks pleasing, but most importantly appropriate, which here it definitely is not. The UI actually reminds me of modern military shooters, and it doesn't help immersion, it actually breaks it for me.

    So, you feel more "immersed" when the screen is full of toolbars, icons and status indicators ?

    It takes all kinds, I guess.

     

    Good thing about ESO is that with Add-On's, we can both have what we want, even if we do come from opposite ends of the "ideal UI" spectrum...

  • R.LimaR.Lima BrasPosts: 116Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deakon

     

    Are you really too stupid to read the post you quoted?

     

    I will help by re-quoting them for you

     

    "Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for."

     

    The "clutter" is completely optional because the info that gives an "advantage to other people" is by and large already available in the base ui (buffs, debuffs, casting animations etc), you just need to know what you are looking for/at.

     

    So I ask again why should we be restricted on how we choose to show that info in a more readable (but less visually appealing) way, surely having the OPTION is a good thing, no?

    This is not true, at all! There are things being displayed by add-ons that simply CAN'T be displayed with the default UI! For instance, with the default UI, there is absolutely no way of seeing the exact amount of health, magicka, and stamina the enemy has, the exact amount of time his spell/ability needs to be cast, the name of the spell/ability he is about to use before he actually uses it (if it has a cast-time), and his buffs and debuffs and exactly when they will wear off. This information CAN'T be seen without add-ons.

    Tell me, how exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to determine how much magicka and stamina his enemy has? How exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to determine which buffs and debuffs his enemy has and when they will expire? How exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to know exactly when to use execute-type abilities that deal more damage if the enemy has less than a certain percentage of health? How exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to know exactly when his enemy's ability/spell with a cast-time will go off? You may say, "Well, if you look at his animation you will know what he is going to do!" However, this method is considerably less accurate because many animations stay the same throughout the entirety of their cast time in a "charging up" fashion, so unless you are able to count perfectly in your head when it will hit (this is considering you have memorized the cast-time of each and every ability and spell in the game and that you saw his animation from the start), then this method becomes unfeasible. 

    If things go live the way they currently are, add-ons will not be merely "optional clutter". They will be absolute necessities for anyone wanting to compete seriously.

  • NiburuNiburu BerlinPosts: 378Member Uncommon
    The boring meaningless content will kill ESO, no worries. Run from questmarker to questmarker and press E
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Itherael
    Originally posted by deakon

     

    Are you really too stupid to read the post you quoted?

     

    I will help by re-quoting them for you

     

    "Most the info (buffs, de-buffs, casting prompt etc) that the addons shown so far provide is info already in the UI if you know what you are looking at/for."

     

    The "clutter" is completely optional because the info that gives an "advantage to other people" is by and large already available in the base ui (buffs, debuffs, casting animations etc), you just need to know what you are looking for/at.

     

    So I ask again why should we be restricted on how we choose to show that info in a more readable (but less visually appealing) way, surely having the OPTION is a good thing, no?

    This is not true, at all! There are things being displayed by add-ons that simply CAN'T be displayed with the default UI at all! For instance, with the default UI, there is absolutely no way of seeing the exact amount of health, magicka, and stamina the enemy has, the exact amount of time his spell/ability needs to be cast, the name of the spell/ability he is about to use before he actually uses it (if it has a cast-time), and his buffs and debuffs and exactly when they will wear off. This information CAN'T be seen without add-ons.

    Tell me, how exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to determine how much magicka and stamina his enemy has? How exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to determine which buffs and debuffs his enemy has and when they will expire? How exactly, without add-ons, is the player going to know exactly when his enemy's ability/spell with a cast-time will go off? You may say, "Well, if you look at his animation you will know what he is going to do!" However, this method is considerably less accurate because many animations stay the same throughout the entirety of their cast time in a "charging up" fashion, so unless you are able to count perfectly in your head when it will hit (this is considering you have memorized the cast-time of each and every ability and spell in the game and that you saw his animation from the start), then this method becomes unfeasible. 

     

    How does seeing my magika and stamina help you though, if you don't know my build it doesn't and even if you do how is it going to help you? Are you going to run away if I have full resources? No you will still fight me regardless

     

    Buffs and debuffs appear around the target frame, each has its own affect on the frame, when they disappear, they are up. If you struggle to see when to interrupt a spell, you are blind/stupid and theres no addons to help with that, its very obvious no matter what the spell is, and the animations are actually all pretty different once you know what you are looking at. You don't need to know when the casting is finished because by then its too late, as long as you can tell the casting has started you can interrupt (which is the only reason to want to see cast bars anyway).

     

    The only thing you have mentioned that isn't available is seeing other players mana/stamina, and lets be honest its pretty shocking that those things aren't available as an option in the base ui anyway (like it is in every themepark mmorpg), but claiming it gives some big advantage to those with addons is pure nonsense, especially in this game where the main end game (AvA) is based unequal sided battles anyway

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    As others have likely mentioned, ZOS responded that they are aware of this issue and hinted at possible restrictions within the pvp environment to ensure fairness of play. I look forward to seeing what they do.

     

     

    You stay sassy!

  • Saxx0nSaxx0n PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd. Hell, CAPosts: 806Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    As others have likely mentioned, ZOS responded that they are aware of this issue and hinted at possible restrictions within the pvp environment to ensure fairness of play. I look forward to seeing what they do.

     

     

    They probably should do more than hint. A lot and I mean a lot of players are holding off purchasing until this info is known. If they want to maximize pre orders and launch day sales figures it seems this would be a priority for them.

     

    It is kind of like buying a new car but your not sure if it comes with a windshield or not. The dealer is hinting it might possibly have one...

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Saxx0n
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    As others have likely mentioned, ZOS responded that they are aware of this issue and hinted at possible restrictions within the pvp environment to ensure fairness of play. I look forward to seeing what they do.

     

     

    They probably should do more than hint. A lot and I mean a lot of players are holding off purchasing until this info is known. If they want to maximize pre orders and launch day sales figures it seems this would be a priority for them.

     

    It is kind of like buying a new car but your not sure if it comes with a windshield or not. The dealer is hinting it might possibly have one...

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    If the game is good people will buy it, regardless of addons, wow proves that. Having a limited UI with no combat info and no way of improving it has more chance to kill a game than addons do, just look at the reaction to swtor's launch UI, it was that bad that Bioware had to quickly add the ability to change it to how you like and add the ability to parse combat info in realtime (but by and large it was too late then)

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Number crunching add-ons are the only ones I have heard about so far, others could cause a real issue to gameplay.
  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Number crunching add-ons are the only ones I have heard about so far, others could cause a real issue to gameplay.

    I may as well toss up a single example here.

    This one shows all the health, stamina and magicka bars for yourself, target and targets target. It also has their casting bars, level, name and what class they are playing at a glance. In addition to that it will also alert you when you need block. I believe (not sure on this one) that it can show the target and target's target damage shields (down to the %).

     

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 39% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Edit: typed 49% instead of 39% . . . Doh!

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 49% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Feel free to PM me the ones on the beta forums. I don't see those at all. I do see the ones on the Bethesda forums.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by deakon

    Where are these "lots", looking at the beta forum most seem to be in favour of addons tbh, they aren't even in favour of special addon free campaigns either.

     

    From the polls if you ask the question addons or no addons - you get a near 50/50 split in results. However, I have been trying to move away from the black and white discussions.

    If you ask a more refined question that speaks of limiting addons to specifically functionality, plenty of people are on board with that.

    I'm looking at a poll on the beta forum now, only 28% against 52% for and and 19% don't care either way (the other percent is lost in the rounding up/down I guess)

     

    Having separate campaigns for addons (which I would be fine with tbh) has it at 61% against atm only 49% in favour.

     

    Not the greatest sample sizes on either poll though tbh, but even on other forums it seems to be the same loud few against addons verses more in favour

     

    Feel free to PM me the ones on the beta forums. I don't see those at all. I do see the ones on the Bethesda forums.

    Not linking the BETA forums, not sure if it's allowed, but if you use the search and type addons its the 2nd and 3rd ones down on my list

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by deakon

    Not linking the BETA forums, not sure if it's allowed, but if you use the search and type addons its the 2nd and 3rd ones down on my list

     

    That is why I said PM. I see zero polls.

    I can use other searches and get plenty of hits... but, not polls.


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,618Member Uncommon
    What of someone made an add-on and called it "Kill this game"...would it? Food for thought...
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