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SOE is heading in the direction of Eve (And that means open world PVP!)

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  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    I wonder if those banking on EvErQuest Next will be disappointed if PvP is a server or claim based battleground option? I hope not as I think EQN and Landmark should be enjoyed by as many as possible. An MMO that allows for the players to let thier creativity shine should be the norm. I realize some see a sandbox type game should be like this or like that but to me it's the ability to create and explore. We'll see what SoE does.
  • BidwoodBidwood Toronto, ONPosts: 554Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I wonder if those banking on EvErQuest Next will be disappointed if PvP is a server or claim based battleground option? I hope not as I think EQN and Landmark should be enjoyed by as many as possible. An MMO that allows for the players to let thier creativity shine should be the norm. I realize some see a sandbox type game should be like this or like that but to me it's the ability to create and explore. We'll see what SoE does.

    I'll be disappointed if OWPVP is a speciality server type. I'm hoping for something designed from the ground up like Eve Online in terms of PVP. With some innovation on the part of SOE to take it to the next level. I would be less disappointed if there was a specialty server type for PVE only. But my interpretation of Smedley's words is that PVE only games are unsustainable, and people will move on after they run out of content. The evergreen content is players - with all of the politics and social interactions that go on between them.

     

    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by flizzer
    What a horrible design decision that would be.  Talk about insuring Everquest Next fails .   Now having some PvP and allowing PvE players to do their thing in peace is another matter.   

    They are not making a themepark. I know that is your only frame of reference, but hang in there you will like what they do ;)

    I agree. Isn't it possible in Eve to go years in the safer zones enjoying content without ever facing real risk of PVP? But that risk is there, because there's no playpen preventing you from attacking. Just consequences.

     

    Originally posted by Gruug
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    Read it and weep. I've been a broken record on this, but the writing on the wall says there's going to be open world PVP in a brilliantly executed system like Eve Online.

    Smedley's blog post covers a lot, but here are some of the highlights:

    "A lot has been made about how much we’re pushing this concept of “Sandbox” mmos being the future. Not a lot has been said about what that means."

    "In my opinion the solution is focusing a lot more on letting players make and be content for each other. Battlegrounds are an excellent example of an Evergreen style of content where it’s the players themselves that actually create the content. ... Building systems into the games that let the players interact with each other in new and unique ways gives us the ability to watch as the players do stuff we never anticipated. We’ll see a lot more creativity in action if the players are at the center of it. Imagine an MMORPG of a massive city.. and the Rogue’s guild is entirely run by players. Where the city has an entire political system that is populated by players who were elected by the playerbase."

    "There’s a great example of this today with Eve Online. It’s a brilliantly executed system where the players are pretty much in charge of the entire game. Sure there is a lot of content for players to do, but anything that’s important in the game is done by the players. This is a shining example of how this kind of system can thrive.

    Our belief at SOE is that it’s smarter to head in this direction now rather than waiting."

    Is anyone from the other side of the fence ready to admit this is happening?

    Edit: Sorry, that was bad form. Here is the blog post:

    http://smedsblog.com/2014/02/11/the-sandbox-mmo/

     

    Edit:

     

    Me:

    @j_smedley love the blog. is SOE heading in that direction for PVP too? When will we learn more about that? Fingers crossed.

    Smedley:

    @sir_bidwood yes

     

    Read between the lines much. Neither the blog nor  the two Twitter post you posted mention anything about OPEN WORLD pvp. The context of the post was more along the lines of freedom of content  creation to the players without intervention from the developers. In a nutshell, that does not mean it applies to what you might call "freedom to gank" by players. Go back and ask Smed if he intends to introduce total free form pvp (open world) or not. I bet his answer would be totally different.

     

    What I took from this is that they're heading in the direction of Eve Online for PVP. My interpretation is that it will be OWPVP with varying levels of safety in different zones. How would you interpret that?

     

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Bidwood

    Having your perspective is great and I can see how you would come to your conclusion based upon what was in Smed's blog. I'm wondering if you really think SoE would be honing it's company to support a universal model that appeals to 20-25% of a potential player base? Going further, with the secret "like SWG" MMO and the two new EQs coming out would they want to compete with themselves like that. They already have PS2, though it's an FPS, so I'm not sure why they would make all follow a OWPvP model and thus shrink thier portfolio.

    They are making big moves like closing 1/2 thier titles, to support the new games they have coming out. Regardless of liking or not liking PvP it leaves the realm of reality IMO for them to force* PvP to a majority of customers that don't want it, especially since they are F2P across the board. I certainly hope they leave more to do in their games than have PvP as the fun thing to do.

    *If content or progression (items included) are behind a requirement to achieve them, players are "forced" to comply. If I want raid gear, I have to raid for example. Locking out areas or giving an advantage to those that PvP forces those that don't want to to engage if they want said advantage. Often the word "encourage" is used but only because it doesn't sounds as bad lol.

    I think the people who would enjoy the Eve Online model of OWPVP is a sizeable audience. All we need now is some innovation on the dev side to come up with a model that makes this work and makes it profitable. I think the key is the "life of consequence" theme. If they can really build meaningful consequences into the game somehow, people will have to be selective about where and how they attack.

    Regarding the "forced" comment..  you would essentially be forced into a state of greater risk of PVP (but not necessarily PVP) to access all of the game's content/rewards. (In the same way that I'm "forced" to PVE In order to do x, y, z.)

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    I don't see why there can't be both, good PvP built in from the start but not have it as a requirement to play the game. If SoE did that it wouldn't matter which was the "normal" server and which is the specialty one.

    To me the only difference between PvE and PvP is who you engage in combat with. Sandbox =/= PvP and PvE =/= themepark unless other parameters are taken into consideration. In fact, IMO themeparks are better suited for PvP because not only are people in more condensed locations, but because PvP is great to have when other content is absent.

    The AI that SoE talks about seems to take a lot of the benefits of PvP, life of consequences was talked about by Georgeson at Live, and offer it to those who prefer PvE. Hopefully this will allow SoE to build PvP that PvPers really want while offering what PvEers want at the same time.
  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member

    I am not sure how Smed is going to have anything other then player attacking player for PVP when the game is being designed to eventually move to the PS4.  How exactly are you as a player going to create any content on the PS4?

    All this talk about OWPvP reminds me of the problems in EQ1.  While I did not flag myself as PvP it was really annoying and so not fun when a couple high level players came in and started killing all the NPCs in town.  You know the NPCs you needed to get new quests and complete quests and sell you junk too.  And kill the guards you ran too when you got in over your head.  That was certainly fun for me when the orcs overwhelmed me and then killed me a the base of the lift because someone was bored and thought it would be fun to mess with the newbes by killing all the guards. 

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,650Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    I'll be disappointed if OWPVP is a speciality server type. I'm hoping for something designed from the ground up like Eve Online in terms of PVP. With some innovation on the part of SOE to take it to the next level. I would be less disappointed if there was a specialty server type for PVE only. But my interpretation of Smedley's words is that PVE only games are unsustainable, and people will move on after they run out of content. The evergreen content is players - with all of the politics and social interactions that go on between them.

    They've gone on and on about fun, fun filters, fun factor, everyone doing whatever is fun for them, yadda yadda yadda, I'm highly doubting they are making a game that is going to not be fun for a huge number of people. They are trying to cater to everyone possible.

    Smedly is also not developing EQN. He is the boss. Several of his statements have basically said that he would prefer EQN going in a different direction, but it's not his call. I'm assuming he doesn't give the devs a list of his "must haves" and they have to include them. I've said before that I doubt he even plays any mmorpgs and probably sticks to more PVP oriented FPS type games which EVE isn't too far away from. Instead of a human avatar you can a ship to shoot people with...Compare his attention to PS2 to all other SOE projects combined, he plays favorites.

    Although his words about the genre is spot on. But you have to account for most games being vertical themeparks. To me he is saying EQN and future games are going more towards the sandbox horizontal approach (obviously) which have a lot more player impact and lasting power. Be it PVP oriented or not.

    EQN could easily have some sort of SWG type flag system with EVE political-economical-pvp elements.

    There would be no real harm if Joe gamer wants to build a house in peace or killing Orcs all day. He would be missing out on venturing into "PVP" land and participating in guild warfare and other fun things, but it should be a choice.

    Politicians, crafters, economic-traders, etc usually aren't in the middle of battles. They are safe at home. EQN could actually mimic real life in some ways. Farmers, crafters, and trades people could run the economy, PVE people could go out and kill dragons bringing back loot-resources for gear, that PVP people could purchase to kill each other with. An actual virtual world could happen. Instead of "I see you, now you must die because your name is red" type game with meaningless PVP.

    I hope EQN isn't a PVE or PVP game. Titles are so limiting. They have the chance to go way outside the box and try new ideas. Hopefully everyone gets to enjoy them without having to sacrifice they preferences.

  • JoePesciJoePesci SRPosts: 12Member

    1. PvP like it is on WoW PvP servers is the minimum I'm willing to accept. If there are more restrictions than on a WoW PvP server, I'm not gonna touch this game.

    2. I really do not understand most of the gaming companies. It is SO EASY to implement different server types in order to satisfy most of the potential audience. Just give us servers where we can kill anyone (maybe even those of the own faction) without restrictions, at any time, at any place, for any reason.

    Unrestricted PvP is the only element in MMOs that can create the feeling of real threat. It's also the only element in games that can show true viciousness! Mobs are predictable, have absolutely no initiative and no creativity and they are just there to die, never leaving their assigned zone.

    I'm also pretty bored by the numerous attempts to create structured, consensual PvP. It's good to have it, yes, but NOT as a replacement for unrestricted open world PvP!

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by JoePesci

     

    2. I really do not understand most of the gaming companies. It is SO EASY to implement different server types in order to satisfy most of the potential audience.

    No, it's not. Good PvP requires the entire game to tie back into it. PvP and PvE have to influence and help one another, or you end up with a shallow PvP experience.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JoePesci

    1. PvP like it is on WoW PvP servers is the minimum I'm willing to accept. If there are more restrictions than on a WoW PvP server, I'm not gonna touch this game.

    2. I really do not understand most of the gaming companies. It is SO EASY to implement different server types in order to satisfy most of the potential audience. Just give us servers where we can kill anyone (maybe even those of the own faction) without restrictions, at any time, at any place, for any reason.

    Unrestricted PvP is the only element in MMOs that can create the feeling of real threat. It's also the only element in games that can show true viciousness! Mobs are predictable, have absolutely no initiative and no creativity and they are just there to die, never leaving their assigned zone.

    I'm also pretty bored by the numerous attempts to create structured, consensual PvP. It's good to have it, yes, but NOT as a replacement for unrestricted open world PvP!

    In all honestly for a lot of people that is not enough.

    I am really sick of the cheap "turn pvp flag on" pvp type games. It is more or less that much of a cheap pvp as to add some battlegrounds or arenas. If that is all pvp what a MMO has to offer i will more likely play any other pvp game.

    PvP have to have meaning, it have to have consequences, and it have to be massive, or at least have massive effects on the world.. The minimum pvp i am willingly to accept is some kind of territorial controll(the simpliest would be DAoC or ESO), but i would also like it with more economical impact, with more meaning and consequences as those two games in brackets... because they don't have a lot of consequences or a lot of meaning.. and almost no economical impact.

    I don't care if they make a speciality server, as long as they are willingly to make it a real pvp game(and with that i mean not just pvp in combat,, but economy, dipomatic and more).. or if they restrict it on a few continents with the neccessary impact, or if it is like EvE. But pls, no more just pvp flag on MMOs, or just some simple battlegrounds or arenas.

    And yes.. i demand a lot. Because to just make a few servers with pvp flag on requests almost zero development time and not really a lot of money.. what i demand will require development time, will require resources..

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,650Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JoePesci

    I'm also pretty bored by the numerous attempts to create structured, consensual PvP. It's good to have it, yes, but NOT as a replacement for unrestricted open world PvP!

    If you mean FFA PVP, I've yet to play a game with OW PVP that has any success or lasting power.

    I believe that while many people love PVP and killing one another, most can't handle OW FFA type systems. Even EVE which is used as "the" PVP example by many, has restrictions.

    Without some form of structure and consequence, it is just mindless killing that gets old real fast. Unless it is a FPS/MOBA type game and player progress isn't really important, only the scoreboard. DAoC FFA was one of my most enjoyable mmo experiences, yet even in a game centered in PVP/RVR, when it was totally FFA, most couldn't handle it or got bored. There has to be more to it.

    If a game can provide OW PVP with some form of consequence and impact where players can't just mindlessly kill anyone without some thought, they would have a hit. PVP needs to impact the entire game and community, not just a mini-game. I think a lot of the issues with gankers and problems PVE people have would solve themselves if devs put a few safe guards in place from the start and allowed players to take control. UO did okay and so have a few others, but none have really gotten it right where they had both a growing population and long term success.

  • KilsinKilsin NSWPosts: 342Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    brilliantly executed system.

    Smedley.

    SOE.

    LOL

     

    Those things should never be in the same text group.

     

    Thanks for the laugh though! :)

    Community & Web Manager | Visionary Realms, Inc.
    Visit our Development Website.

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Based on the Round Table Response 23 specialty servers it doesn't sound like they are averse to specialty servers.  In fact it seems like they are all for them, to include PVP, Roleplaying, and PVP Rolplaying. 
  • SephastusSephastus New Brunswick, NJPosts: 448Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bidwood
    I'll be disappointed if OWPVP is a speciality server type. I'm hoping for something designed from the ground up like Eve Online in terms of PVP. With some innovation on the part of SOE to take it to the next level. I would be less disappointed if there was a specialty server type for PVE only. But my interpretation of Smedley's words is that PVE only games are unsustainable, and people will move on after they run out of content. The evergreen content is players - with all of the politics and social interactions that go on between them.

     ...

    I agree. Isn't it possible in Eve to go years in the safer zones enjoying content without ever facing real risk of PVP? But that risk is there, because there's no playpen preventing you from attacking. Just consequences.

     ...

    What I took from this is that they're heading in the direction of Eve Online for PVP. My interpretation is that it will be OWPVP with varying levels of safety in different zones. How would you interpret that?

     ...

    I think the people who would enjoy the Eve Online model of OWPVP is a sizeable audience. All we need now is some innovation on the dev side to come up with a model that makes this work and makes it profitable. I think the key is the "life of consequence" theme. If they can really build meaningful consequences into the game somehow, people will have to be selective about where and how they attack.

    Regarding the "forced" comment..  you would essentially be forced into a state of greater risk of PVP (but not necessarily PVP) to access all of the game's content/rewards. (In the same way that I'm "forced" to PVE In order to do x, y, z.)

    *Crimped your post for ease of understanding.

    Your main take: 1) EQN will be designed from the ground up for OWPVP

     

    Reality: EQN is being designed primarily to be sandbox style game, where players decide what they are going to do with the world.

     

    Will there be PvP? Yes. Will it be OWPVP? Probably by server type only. There are multiple types of players, and assuming that SOE will ONLY cater to the type that like OWPVP, is a very narrow-minded ideal. The most probable solution is multiple server rulesets, where people can log in to the server with the ruleset they wish to play in.

     

    2) You say PvE is unsustainable due to running out of content.

     

    Reality: Sandbox games have the PLAYERS create the content. Also, the game generates dungeons, quests, stories, and many other things "on the fly". Or like the devs call it: procedurally generated. No 2 days will be the same, even if the only thing you do, is log in, and do nothing, since the world will be changing and evolving/devolving according to what is happening.

     

    3) You say EQN style combat can be designed from the ground up to be PvP Centric.

     

    Reality: This is a big one you will have to understand: Due to the MASSIVE amount combinations of possible skills, weapons and gear, it will be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to completely balance the game. Last check, they are planning close to 40 "Classes", many of which are interdependent... and a huge amount of weapon types with unique abilities. From EQNL, I can tell you that the RNG can go all over the map, and it would be tedious to get a specific skill on a specific quality of gear. Designing around this huge discrepancy in possible power levels, and possible combinations is just logistically very very hard/impossible. for example, EQ2 has 24 "classes", of which, in reality, you have 12, with 2 different flavors, which can be boiled down to 4 Archtypes (Warriors, Priests, Rogues & Casters). So in reality, they are balancing around 4 fighting styles... and there can still be flavors of the month due to problems with balance. EQN can have mixes of classes based on weapons, skills and classes that would most probably never be considered by the Devs, and thus, making it impossible to predict/balance.

     

    4) You say "Players will be able to police themselves through their politics and social interactions"

     

    Reality: a) Humans in general avoid conflict. b) When faced with advantage "without (apparent) consequence", most will take it. While you might like to assume that this would mean that players will avoid fighting one another unless they can see an advantage to it, the way it usually turns out is: people will AVOID helping out another, in an effort to avoid conflict, and when presented with the chance of fighting an apparently underpowered player in order to get some sort of advantage (be that just self gratification or an actual in game advantage), they will take it.

     

    Ok, this response has been long winded enough... so here the obligatory:

     

    TL;DR: You are assuming players are honorable, and that SOE's views are your own, while in reality, due to human nature, we are all jerks and rules have to be made to prevent the loss of money due to people leaving the game. (IOW, PVP can't and isn't the main focus of EQN).

  • BidwoodBidwood Toronto, ONPosts: 554Member

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

  • SephastusSephastus New Brunswick, NJPosts: 448Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

     

    I respect that your opinion is that Over World Player Versus Player is the "holy grail" of sandbox MMOs, but conflict can only get you so far, and is very single-faceted. Instead, the proverbial "holy grail" for sandbox MMOs revolves more around how much control you grant the players. Ease of use of the toolsets, story nodes for them to attach their own stories to, and the ability to shape the lore. When players have that, and become emotionally involved in what they are doing, THAT is what makes the game interesting, fun, and something they want to come back to every day. PvP style conflict is weak way to get an emotional response out of an audience, and it will eventually drive away people instead of getting them more involved.

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 760Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    Players get to help the NPCs.  Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure.   You will be busy finding and training in new classes. 

    You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home.  Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.

    There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Kyllien
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    Players get to help the NPCs.  Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure.   You will be busy finding and training in new classes. 

    You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home.  Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.

    There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.

    are you sure?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 760Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.

    It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).

    Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.

    It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).

    Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.

     Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.

    How does that work here?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • azarhalazarhal Somewhere, BCPosts: 760Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.

    It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).

    Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.

     Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.

    How does that work here?

    Sigh.  Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.

    There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Kyllien
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    Players get to help the NPCs.  Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure.   You will be busy finding and training in new classes. 

    You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home.  Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.

    There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.

    are you sure?

    There is a lot of information about Everquest Next available.  Maybe you should go check out www.everquestnext.com and see for yourself.  There are still big gaps in information; PvP for example.  But otherwise alot of info.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Kyllien
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Kyllien
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    Players get to help the NPCs.  Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure.   You will be busy finding and training in new classes. 

    You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home.  Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.

    There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.

    are you sure?

    There is a lot of information about Everquest Next available.  Maybe you should go check out www.everquestnext.com and see for yourself.  There are still big gaps in information; PvP for example.  But otherwise alot of info.

    I was curious about npc behavior and the gameplay that will emerge from that. How will that work in an mmorpg environment?

    I don't want to make anymore people sigh at my ignorance. I don't use official forums for questions I have with a post here. I'm not going to research it, if it was common knowledge there wouldn't be a problem explaining it.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by azarhal
    Originally posted by Sephastus
    Originally posted by Bidwood

    You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.

     

    A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.

     

    The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.

     

    The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.

    You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.

    lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.

    Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.

    NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.

     What do the players get to do?

    What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.

    It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).

    Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.

     Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.

    How does that work here?

    Sigh.  Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.

    There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.

    You just repeated my question back to me. So how does it work in this game which is, as you just said,  not like those other games you mentioned.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • WraithoneWraithone Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 3,592Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.

    There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.

    The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you ;)

     

    We will hear the sound of ten thousand Goonies, crying bitter tears, if that turns out to be the case... ^^

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