Based on the Round Table Response 23 specialty servers it doesn't sound like they are averse to specialty servers. In fact it seems like they are all for them, to include PVP, Roleplaying, and PVP Rolplaying.
I'll be disappointed if OWPVP is a speciality server type. I'm hoping for something designed from the ground up like Eve Online in terms of PVP. With some innovation on the part of SOE to take it to the next level. I would be less disappointed if there was a specialty server type for PVE only. But my interpretation of Smedley's words is that PVE only games are unsustainable, and people will move on after they run out of content. The evergreen content is players - with all of the politics and social interactions that go on between them.
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I agree. Isn't it possible in Eve to go years in the safer zones enjoying content without ever facing real risk of PVP? But that risk is there, because there's no playpen preventing you from attacking. Just consequences.
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What I took from this is that they're heading in the direction of Eve Online for PVP. My interpretation is that it will be OWPVP with varying levels of safety in different zones. How would you interpret that?
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I think the people who would enjoy the Eve Online model of OWPVP is a sizeable audience. All we need now is some innovation on the dev side to come up with a model that makes this work and makes it profitable. I think the key is the "life of consequence" theme. If they can really build meaningful consequences into the game somehow, people will have to be selective about where and how they attack.
Regarding the "forced" comment.. you would essentially be forced into a state of greater risk of PVP (but not necessarily PVP) to access all of the game's content/rewards. (In the same way that I'm "forced" to PVE In order to do x, y, z.)
*Crimped your post for ease of understanding.
Your main take: 1) EQN will be designed from the ground up for OWPVP
Reality: EQN is being designed primarily to be sandbox style game, where players decide what they are going to do with the world.
Will there be PvP? Yes. Will it be OWPVP? Probably by server type only. There are multiple types of players, and assuming that SOE will ONLY cater to the type that like OWPVP, is a very narrow-minded ideal. The most probable solution is multiple server rulesets, where people can log in to the server with the ruleset they wish to play in.
2) You say PvE is unsustainable due to running out of content.
Reality: Sandbox games have the PLAYERS create the content. Also, the game generates dungeons, quests, stories, and many other things "on the fly". Or like the devs call it: procedurally generated. No 2 days will be the same, even if the only thing you do, is log in, and do nothing, since the world will be changing and evolving/devolving according to what is happening.
3) You say EQN style combat can be designed from the ground up to be PvP Centric.
Reality: This is a big one you will have to understand: Due to the MASSIVE amount combinations of possible skills, weapons and gear, it will be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to completely balance the game. Last check, they are planning close to 40 "Classes", many of which are interdependent... and a huge amount of weapon types with unique abilities. From EQNL, I can tell you that the RNG can go all over the map, and it would be tedious to get a specific skill on a specific quality of gear. Designing around this huge discrepancy in possible power levels, and possible combinations is just logistically very very hard/impossible. for example, EQ2 has 24 "classes", of which, in reality, you have 12, with 2 different flavors, which can be boiled down to 4 Archtypes (Warriors, Priests, Rogues & Casters). So in reality, they are balancing around 4 fighting styles... and there can still be flavors of the month due to problems with balance. EQN can have mixes of classes based on weapons, skills and classes that would most probably never be considered by the Devs, and thus, making it impossible to predict/balance.
4) You say "Players will be able to police themselves through their politics and social interactions"
Reality: a) Humans in general avoid conflict. b) When faced with advantage "without (apparent) consequence", most will take it. While you might like to assume that this would mean that players will avoid fighting one another unless they can see an advantage to it, the way it usually turns out is: people will AVOID helping out another, in an effort to avoid conflict, and when presented with the chance of fighting an apparently underpowered player in order to get some sort of advantage (be that just self gratification or an actual in game advantage), they will take it.
Ok, this response has been long winded enough... so here the obligatory:
TL;DR: You are assuming players are honorable, and that SOE's views are your own, while in reality, due to human nature, we are all jerks and rules have to be made to prevent the loss of money due to people leaving the game. (IOW, PVP can't and isn't the main focus of EQN).
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
I respect that your opinion is that Over World Player Versus Player is the "holy grail" of sandbox MMOs, but conflict can only get you so far, and is very single-faceted. Instead, the proverbial "holy grail" for sandbox MMOs revolves more around how much control you grant the players. Ease of use of the toolsets, story nodes for them to attach their own stories to, and the ability to shape the lore. When players have that, and become emotionally involved in what they are doing, THAT is what makes the game interesting, fun, and something they want to come back to every day. PvP style conflict is weak way to get an emotional response out of an audience, and it will eventually drive away people instead of getting them more involved.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
Players get to help the NPCs. Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure. You will be busy finding and training in new classes.
You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home. Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.
There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
Players get to help the NPCs. Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure. You will be busy finding and training in new classes.
You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home. Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.
There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.
are you sure?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
Sigh. Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.
There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
Players get to help the NPCs. Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure. You will be busy finding and training in new classes.
You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home. Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.
There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.
are you sure?
There is a lot of information about Everquest Next available. Maybe you should go check out www.everquestnext.com and see for yourself. There are still big gaps in information; PvP for example. But otherwise alot of info.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
Players get to help the NPCs. Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure. You will be busy finding and training in new classes.
You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home. Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.
There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.
are you sure?
There is a lot of information about Everquest Next available. Maybe you should go check out www.everquestnext.com and see for yourself. There are still big gaps in information; PvP for example. But otherwise alot of info.
I was curious about npc behavior and the gameplay that will emerge from that. How will that work in an mmorpg environment?
I don't want to make anymore people sigh at my ignorance. I don't use official forums for questions I have with a post here. I'm not going to research it, if it was common knowledge there wouldn't be a problem explaining it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
Sigh. Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.
There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.
You just repeated my question back to me. So how does it work in this game which is, as you just said, not like those other games you mentioned.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
We will hear the sound of ten thousand Goonies, crying bitter tears, if that turns out to be the case... ^^
That would mean PVP is meaningless, and PVe is pointless. The value of items would differ from server to server, cash shops would need to differ, ect....
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
Sigh. Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.
There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.
You just repeated my question back to me. So how does it work in this game which is, as you just said, not like those other games you mentioned.
I did not repeat your question, I answered it. I said EQNext was a sandbox-like game and that there is no "beat the game" in those type of games. Going by your previous post, you do not seem interested in educating yourself, so I won't bother explaining what sandbox-like mean. If one day you want to learn what that mean, please use google, it's free.
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
We will hear the sound of ten thousand Goonies, crying bitter tears, if that turns out to be the case... ^^
That would mean PVP is meaningless, and PVe is pointless. The value of items would differ from server to server, cash shops would need to differ, ect....
PVP will be meaningless? Explain yourself. Do you mean, that since you will not have unwilling victims that PvP now lacks any meaning?
As for PvE being pointless... that also has some misinformation. World progression will require tons of interactions with aggressive NPCs. The mayor story arches are still going to be in game, and the servers will adjust what is happening according to its ruleset, and the player community.
Finally, value of items will not "differ" from server to server and so on, because there will only be ONE shop for the entire game. Just like you can move from server to server at will, due to the character information being located on a separate server from the world information, so too will the auction information be independent of what server you are in.
If you think there will only be FFA open world PvP servers in EQ Next (like in EVE), you will be sorely mistaken.
There will be several rulesets and yes, there will probably be open world PvP servers too.
The difference is, only those who like PvP will play on those servers. No easy prey for you
We will hear the sound of ten thousand Goonies, crying bitter tears, if that turns out to be the case... ^^
That would mean PVP is meaningless, and PVe is pointless. The value of items would differ from server to server, cash shops would need to differ, ect....
PVP will be meaningless? Explain yourself. Do you mean, that since you will not have unwilling victims that PvP now lacks any meaning?
As for PvE being pointless... that also has some misinformation. World progression will require tons of interactions with aggressive NPCs. The mayor story arches are still going to be in game, and the servers will adjust what is happening according to its ruleset, and the player community.
Finally, value of items will not "differ" from server to server and so on, because there will only be ONE shop for the entire game. Just like you can move from server to server at will, due to the character information being located on a separate server from the world information, so too will the auction information be independent of what server you are in.
Ok I think I see what you are describing.
Thanks. Hard to get you guys to talk about the game.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
Sigh. Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.
There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.
You just repeated my question back to me. So how does it work in this game which is, as you just said, not like those other games you mentioned.
I did not repeat your question, I answered it. I said EQNext was a sandbox-like game and that there is no "beat the game" in those type of games. Going by your previous post, you do not seem interested in educating yourself, so I won't bother explaining what sandbox-like mean. If one day you want to learn what that mean, please use google, it's free.
So you don't know how it works in this game?
No, Im not going to do research.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
azarhal I am not following you on how this translates into players being content for each other. that is what Smedley said would happen in EQN.
the whole emergent AI thing sounds great, but I'm not seeing that alone as accounting for what Smedley said in his blog about their games being more like Eve. the Pvp has to be a part of it. we need to stop grasping at straws and conventional beliefs about past MMOs to deny this. try to think outside the box.
Originally posted by Bidwood azarhal I am not following you on how this translates into players being content for each other. that is what Smedley said would happen in EQN.
the whole emergent AI thing sounds great, but I'm not seeing that alone as accounting for what Smedley said in his blog about their games being more like Eve. the Pvp has to be a part of it. we need to stop grasping at straws and conventional beliefs about past MMOs to deny this. try to think outside the box.
Players still affect each others through the emergent AI. Player X interactions with the AI will cause player Y to encounter some content down the line that he did not expect. There is also the destructible terrain that will affect other players gameplay, along with any economic system (crafting, AH, etc) implemented. None of these things require PvP. Emergent gameplay does not mean PvP. Building something in Landmark create content for other players. Playing music in LoTRO turn the player into content for others.
You focus on the wrong part of Smedley's text (his mention of EvE). The blog message is SOE moving forward with sandbox style games (which doesn't require PvP despite what some people believe).
No one "knows" how the game works outside of SOE. They've shown us a decent amount of info through various outlets and with a bit of common sense and past experience, it isn't to hard to come to a conclusion of how the game will work. There are some very opposing opinions on what will happen, but there seems to be common ideas amongst fans.
If you aren't willing to research, don't expect others to educate you on every detail that we don't even know that well. Come back in a year or so when the game might be coming closer to reality and not just in-development and check out what they've officially released on their main site if you can't be bothered to spend 10 minutes looking around.
Originally posted by Bidwood azarhal I am not following you on how this translates into players being content for each other. that is what Smedley said would happen in EQN.
the whole emergent AI thing sounds great, but I'm not seeing that alone as accounting for what Smedley said in his blog about their games being more like Eve. the Pvp has to be a part of it. we need to stop grasping at straws and conventional beliefs about past MMOs to deny this. try to think outside the box.
From this, I get the feeling that they are looking for a lot more options then what we are used to, one of which isn't having only one option.
EVE in general only works because it is one "server". If there was 100 "EVEs" running at once, the dynamics wouldn't be there. Like almost every other game that has tried to do OW PVP, a few dominant guilds rule the entire show and the game dies because those on the top get bored and those on the bottom get tired of being on the bottom.
EVE is so large that it allows for multiple groups to control things and have an on-going experience of player conflict that doesn't sway too far one way or another. A single player can work from nothing and work their way up.
The layers of player interaction would be lost if it was just another server with another version of the game running. "Oh darn, I got killed and am now hunted or crap they found out I was a spy, I'll just restart on server 24." EVE requires commitment and a huge buy-in. Mmorpgs in general don't have that element.
While I hope some of the things that make EVE great get molded into EQN, I do not think it will run the same. Even on a PVP server. I have no doubt that PVP will have a more impactful role then previous EQs, but it won't be THE game.
As a self-proclaimed PVPer, I hope it has a large importance for those of us that want it, without it being "forced" on others that might want to play the game. Between different server types and consequence systems, PVP and PVE should be able to co-exist without causing either side of the fence to have a poor experience.
Comments
LOL
Those things should never be in the same text group.
Thanks for the laugh though!
*Crimped your post for ease of understanding.
Your main take: 1) EQN will be designed from the ground up for OWPVP
Reality: EQN is being designed primarily to be sandbox style game, where players decide what they are going to do with the world.
Will there be PvP? Yes. Will it be OWPVP? Probably by server type only. There are multiple types of players, and assuming that SOE will ONLY cater to the type that like OWPVP, is a very narrow-minded ideal. The most probable solution is multiple server rulesets, where people can log in to the server with the ruleset they wish to play in.
2) You say PvE is unsustainable due to running out of content.
Reality: Sandbox games have the PLAYERS create the content. Also, the game generates dungeons, quests, stories, and many other things "on the fly". Or like the devs call it: procedurally generated. No 2 days will be the same, even if the only thing you do, is log in, and do nothing, since the world will be changing and evolving/devolving according to what is happening.
3) You say EQN style combat can be designed from the ground up to be PvP Centric.
Reality: This is a big one you will have to understand: Due to the MASSIVE amount combinations of possible skills, weapons and gear, it will be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to completely balance the game. Last check, they are planning close to 40 "Classes", many of which are interdependent... and a huge amount of weapon types with unique abilities. From EQNL, I can tell you that the RNG can go all over the map, and it would be tedious to get a specific skill on a specific quality of gear. Designing around this huge discrepancy in possible power levels, and possible combinations is just logistically very very hard/impossible. for example, EQ2 has 24 "classes", of which, in reality, you have 12, with 2 different flavors, which can be boiled down to 4 Archtypes (Warriors, Priests, Rogues & Casters). So in reality, they are balancing around 4 fighting styles... and there can still be flavors of the month due to problems with balance. EQN can have mixes of classes based on weapons, skills and classes that would most probably never be considered by the Devs, and thus, making it impossible to predict/balance.
4) You say "Players will be able to police themselves through their politics and social interactions"
Reality: a) Humans in general avoid conflict. b) When faced with advantage "without (apparent) consequence", most will take it. While you might like to assume that this would mean that players will avoid fighting one another unless they can see an advantage to it, the way it usually turns out is: people will AVOID helping out another, in an effort to avoid conflict, and when presented with the chance of fighting an apparently underpowered player in order to get some sort of advantage (be that just self gratification or an actual in game advantage), they will take it.
Ok, this response has been long winded enough... so here the obligatory:
TL;DR: You are assuming players are honorable, and that SOE's views are your own, while in reality, due to human nature, we are all jerks and rules have to be made to prevent the loss of money due to people leaving the game. (IOW, PVP can't and isn't the main focus of EQN).
You're not thinking 'next gen' enough.
A year ago people never would have believed SOE was getting rid of vertical progression and the holy trinity. It's happening.
The "PVE only" server is an antiquated concept from the themeparks of yesterday.
The holy grail sandbox MMO is going to put OWPVP and PVE in the same server and attract legions of fans.
You are correct... I am not thinking in "fantasy" mode... I like to stick to reality, regardless of how some people wish to view their world. Also, its either PvP, or PvE... just like you can't be a "little" pregnant... either you are, or you aren't.
I respect that your opinion is that Over World Player Versus Player is the "holy grail" of sandbox MMOs, but conflict can only get you so far, and is very single-faceted. Instead, the proverbial "holy grail" for sandbox MMOs revolves more around how much control you grant the players. Ease of use of the toolsets, story nodes for them to attach their own stories to, and the ability to shape the lore. When players have that, and become emotionally involved in what they are doing, THAT is what makes the game interesting, fun, and something they want to come back to every day. PvP style conflict is weak way to get an emotional response out of an audience, and it will eventually drive away people instead of getting them more involved.
lol at the "little" pregnant analogy.
Adding to what you were saying. Schmed connecting EQNext to EvE is because of the emergent gameplay that exist in EvE: content that is not scripted. SOE goal is to reproduce that sort of emergent gameplay in EQNext and to do that they decided to use an emergent AI (Storybrick) not players.
NPCs are the ones who are going to create conflicts. They will invade others, expand territories, attack cities, build cities, trade, build relationships, etc. The gameworld will be dynamic, because it is a simulation, not because there is players in it.
What do the players get to do?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Players get to help the NPCs. Or you can wander the world looking for adventure or treasure. You will be busy finding and training in new classes.
You will be able to earn a plot of land on which to build you very own home. Most likely your Guild will be able to build thier own guild hall.
There will be PvP we just don't know anything about how it will be implemented.
are you sure?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
What kind of question is that? You get to play in the simulation and interact with it. Players simply do not decide when, what and where things happens in the simulation. You react to the AI making decisions, which in turn affect future decisions of said AI.
It's not a new concept at the base, it has just never been done in a MMO (and I really do not understand why) and probably never done to the extend that Storybricks will allow either (aka individual NPC relationships with important NPCs).
Mount&Blades, Black&White, The Sims, lots of strategy games all implements something like this at some levels. These game have different gameplay and goal though. Some of these games allow the player to manage a section of the simulation by being a God or King, but that is not what EQNext is about. It is also not always deep (Black&White villagers only goal was survival for example), but it still make each playthrough different.
Those games all had win/lose criteria. The point was to succeed or beat the game.
How does that work here?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Sigh. Beside Mount&Blades, all the other games are not sandbox-like.
There is no "beat the game" in a sandbox-like game and EQNext is going to be a sandbox-like game.
There is a lot of information about Everquest Next available. Maybe you should go check out www.everquestnext.com and see for yourself. There are still big gaps in information; PvP for example. But otherwise alot of info.
I was curious about npc behavior and the gameplay that will emerge from that. How will that work in an mmorpg environment?
I don't want to make anymore people sigh at my ignorance. I don't use official forums for questions I have with a post here. I'm not going to research it, if it was common knowledge there wouldn't be a problem explaining it.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You just repeated my question back to me. So how does it work in this game which is, as you just said, not like those other games you mentioned.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
We will hear the sound of ten thousand Goonies, crying bitter tears, if that turns out to be the case... ^^
That would mean PVP is meaningless, and PVe is pointless. The value of items would differ from server to server, cash shops would need to differ, ect....
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I did not repeat your question, I answered it. I said EQNext was a sandbox-like game and that there is no "beat the game" in those type of games. Going by your previous post, you do not seem interested in educating yourself, so I won't bother explaining what sandbox-like mean. If one day you want to learn what that mean, please use google, it's free.
PVP will be meaningless? Explain yourself. Do you mean, that since you will not have unwilling victims that PvP now lacks any meaning?
As for PvE being pointless... that also has some misinformation. World progression will require tons of interactions with aggressive NPCs. The mayor story arches are still going to be in game, and the servers will adjust what is happening according to its ruleset, and the player community.
Finally, value of items will not "differ" from server to server and so on, because there will only be ONE shop for the entire game. Just like you can move from server to server at will, due to the character information being located on a separate server from the world information, so too will the auction information be independent of what server you are in.
Ok I think I see what you are describing.
Thanks. Hard to get you guys to talk about the game.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
So you don't know how it works in this game?
No, Im not going to do research.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
the whole emergent AI thing sounds great, but I'm not seeing that alone as accounting for what Smedley said in his blog about their games being more like Eve. the Pvp has to be a part of it. we need to stop grasping at straws and conventional beliefs about past MMOs to deny this. try to think outside the box.
Players still affect each others through the emergent AI. Player X interactions with the AI will cause player Y to encounter some content down the line that he did not expect. There is also the destructible terrain that will affect other players gameplay, along with any economic system (crafting, AH, etc) implemented. None of these things require PvP. Emergent gameplay does not mean PvP. Building something in Landmark create content for other players. Playing music in LoTRO turn the player into content for others.
You focus on the wrong part of Smedley's text (his mention of EvE). The blog message is SOE moving forward with sandbox style games (which doesn't require PvP despite what some people believe).
No one "knows" how the game works outside of SOE. They've shown us a decent amount of info through various outlets and with a bit of common sense and past experience, it isn't to hard to come to a conclusion of how the game will work. There are some very opposing opinions on what will happen, but there seems to be common ideas amongst fans.
If you aren't willing to research, don't expect others to educate you on every detail that we don't even know that well. Come back in a year or so when the game might be coming closer to reality and not just in-development and check out what they've officially released on their main site if you can't be bothered to spend 10 minutes looking around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6w1BGsgLjQ
From this, I get the feeling that they are looking for a lot more options then what we are used to, one of which isn't having only one option.
EVE in general only works because it is one "server". If there was 100 "EVEs" running at once, the dynamics wouldn't be there. Like almost every other game that has tried to do OW PVP, a few dominant guilds rule the entire show and the game dies because those on the top get bored and those on the bottom get tired of being on the bottom.
EVE is so large that it allows for multiple groups to control things and have an on-going experience of player conflict that doesn't sway too far one way or another. A single player can work from nothing and work their way up.
The layers of player interaction would be lost if it was just another server with another version of the game running. "Oh darn, I got killed and am now hunted or crap they found out I was a spy, I'll just restart on server 24." EVE requires commitment and a huge buy-in. Mmorpgs in general don't have that element.
While I hope some of the things that make EVE great get molded into EQN, I do not think it will run the same. Even on a PVP server. I have no doubt that PVP will have a more impactful role then previous EQs, but it won't be THE game.
As a self-proclaimed PVPer, I hope it has a large importance for those of us that want it, without it being "forced" on others that might want to play the game. Between different server types and consequence systems, PVP and PVE should be able to co-exist without causing either side of the fence to have a poor experience.