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Doesn't it take more than $800k to make an MMO? - From their Kickstarter

SeelinnikoiSeelinnikoi LONDONPosts: 661Member Uncommon

Doesn't it take more than $800k to make an MMO?

 

Yes it does. Our intent for this Kickstarter is first to prove that there's enough of a demand for a group focused game that believes in the experience of the game instead of handholding, and to get the ball rolling on development. If we can get to the goal we will have proved that and will have enough to get this game started and be able to get our studio set up and operational. If we only get to the goal and little more, then we will visit other funding opportunities but first and foremost we wanted to make it possible to be completely crowdfunded so that you, the players, have more to do with what goes into the game than other powers would should we need to turn to those options later.

 

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So, does that mean there is no market for this game ?

It sure looks there is not, because they only managed to get HALF the target in the whole campaign...

Your thoughts on this, will this ever become a game, or just some concept idea that failed ?

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Comments

  • CaldicotCaldicot StockholmPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    Arena/BG PVP is more popular then grind fest PVE and Mark is trying to make a simpler game, not the most epic old school game ever. DAoC/WAR left better memories burned in my mind then EQ and I feel the pain for those that tried to play Vanguard early on.

    Now if Raph Koster was doing a KS, I might be interested. MUDs, UO, SWG, heck even EQ2, sign me up.

  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    Pantheon failing doesn't prove there's not enough interest in group centered games. It proves that fans trust Brad about as far as they can throw him.
  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Yeah looks like Brad will need to get a day job and stop dreaming.
  • NellusNellus Groton, CTPosts: 247Member

    It'll get made. Brad has already stated he has other avenues, and Pantheon will be made no matter the result of the kickstarter. Good job doing your research on that one.

     

    Whether it ever releases and/or popular is another question entirely.

    - Nellus

  • AbndnAbndn OsloPosts: 53Member
    A game like this interests me, but if you need to ask for $800k I don't have particularly high hopes of ever seeing a high quality MMORPG from them. You can make a good singleplayer or a very focused multiplayer game with that kind of money, but not an MMORPG. They even admit that it isn't enough to have the game made. Seems like a very risky investment to me.
  • CaldicotCaldicot StockholmPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    Arena/BG PVP is more popular then grind fest PVE and Mark is trying to make a simpler game, not the most epic old school game ever. DAoC/WAR left better memories burned in my mind then EQ and I feel the pain for those that tried to play Vanguard early on.

    Now if Raph Koster was doing a KS, I might be interested. MUDs, UO, SWG, heck even EQ2, sign me up.

    This is not true according to the numerous polls on the subject "pve vs pvp" on this site. Thats why I find the lack of interest in Pantheon puzzling.

    If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon
    They are just trying to get free seed money from the fanbots so they can get paid to sit around for 2 years and hope an investor magically appears.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Ft. Bliss, TXPosts: 3,493Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    Arena/BG PVP is more popular then grind fest PVE and Mark is trying to make a simpler game, not the most epic old school game ever. DAoC/WAR left better memories burned in my mind then EQ and I feel the pain for those that tried to play Vanguard early on.

    Now if Raph Koster was doing a KS, I might be interested. MUDs, UO, SWG, heck even EQ2, sign me up.

    This is not true according to the numerous polls on the subject "pve vs pvp" on this site. Thats why I find the lack of interest in Pantheon puzzling.

    I think theres a good mix of interest in both PvP and PvE. Nothing but PvE = Boring Grind and nothing but PvP = Mindless Gankfest. Games that have both will always do better than games that only focus on one. It comes down to options of gameplay and not having to hop between games to get it.

    image

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Pathfinder Online did it right. They had a small Kickstarter to make their promotional material, secured some funding and then came back for a larger Kickstarter once they had a secure source of outside funding and preliminary game video to show. some people complained about this but it always made perfect sense to me. If Pantheon had done something similar they probably would've gotten funded but asking for 800K with stretch goals up to like 5 million just made them look clueless.

     

  • skeeter667skeeter667 holyoke, MAPosts: 55Member Uncommon
    I didn't back this game because I don't trust Brad, the game sounds good but the track record of the head of the company leaves alot to be desired. This could be Vanguard all over again as soon as the going get tough Brad dumps the company and moves on.
  • popsicledeathpopsicledeath Spokane, WAPosts: 108Member
    This is already Vanguard all over again.  Like when Brad was absent from the KS/project for like a week under vague explanations of personal reasons and looking at outside opportunities, before coming back talking a lot about investors and that they're looking to secure private funding... only to then ask on twitter if anyone knew an angel investor.  So, I guess that last part was new, everything else has reeked of Vanguard management all the way through. ;/

    According to a Facebook quiz, I'm a genius.

  • kilunkilun Apopka, FLPosts: 709Member Common
    Originally posted by Slackker

    It'll get made. Brad has already stated he has other avenues, and Pantheon will be made no matter the result of the kickstarter. Good job doing your research on that one.

     

    Whether it ever releases and/or popular is another question entirely.

    If it doesn't release it doesn't get made.  So I don't understand how you can say it'll get made, but maybe not released.

     No one fortunately trust Brad enough to deliver on a game.  He is full of ideas, but with running out of funding on Vanguard it subsequent sell and buy and release as a crap product on release, he needs to deliver before many invest heavily.

    www.ozumgames.com

  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    Arena/BG PVP is more popular then grind fest PVE and Mark is trying to make a simpler game, not the most epic old school game ever. DAoC/WAR left better memories burned in my mind then EQ and I feel the pain for those that tried to play Vanguard early on.

    Now if Raph Koster was doing a KS, I might be interested. MUDs, UO, SWG, heck even EQ2, sign me up.

    This is not true according to the numerous polls on the subject "pve vs pvp" on this site. Thats why I find the lack of interest in Pantheon puzzling.

    Sorry, I was lumping MOBA, FPS, RTS, MMORPG Arenas/BGs, WvW, RvR together. These are all forms of PVP and far outnumber PVE only games, especially "old school" ones.

    EQ was not that popular and has little influence in today's market.

    DAoC was not that popular either, but CU is going after that love of conflict people have. Someone that never played DAoC could enjoy it if they like killing others. While I find it hard to see non-EQ/VG vets playing Pantheon, they don't have a lot of foundation or memories to compare to.

    WAR was also decent and shows that Mark wasn't a 1-hit wonder, unlike EQ and VG in comparison. Brad has burnt more bridges as well, not that Mark has a clean record.

    This site in no way represents the majority of gamers. The polls you speak of are usually worded in a way to ask if people like being ganked or not, or some other sillyness that has no real meaning. PVP is so broad that it is hard to compare it to PVE which is so one tracked usually and why I think there is always an arguments about the two, no one knows what anyone else is talking about or referring to when they throw buzzwords around.

    I'll be surprised if either project ever sees the light of day or has any lasting power. I'm all for more games and options, but quality should be #1, not trying to hit as many bullet points on a niche crowds wish list. 

  • AbndnAbndn OsloPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by Allein

    EQ was not that popular and has little influence in today's market.

    EQ peaked around 500k subs which was insanely popular for a video game at the time. It has an enormous influence on today's market because World of Warcraft was so heavily influenced by it. WoW's early subscriber base consisted mainly of old Everquest players because the transition was so natural. Developers may not look directly towards Everquest anymore, but its influence lives on through WoW and permeates the industry.

  • HulluckHulluck lost in bfe, TNPosts: 605Member Uncommon
    Wow, I figured he would have got funded on his name only. Even with the stigma attached to it. A little surprised it hasn't yet.
  • AlleinAllein San Diego, CAPosts: 1,662Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Abndn
    Originally posted by Allein

    EQ was not that popular and has little influence in today's market.

    EQ peaked around 500k subs which was insanely popular for a video game at the time. It has an enormous influence on today's market because World of Warcraft was so heavily influenced by it. WoW's early subscriber base consisted mainly of old Everquest players because the transition was so natural. Developers may not look directly towards Everquest anymore, but its influence lives on through WoW and permeates the industry.

    It was the most popular game for a while after it overtook UO. Factoring in today's market the 500k at peak vs 15+ million WoW or even 67+ million LoL is nothing, EQ lives in the shadows now. Those that played EQ in the early days and then moved on to WoW and other games aren't the majority.

    WoW was definitely influenced by EQ just like EQ was influenced by D&D and MUDs. Many features that made EQ, EQ are not popular these days and the vast majority of gamers have no clue how/what EQ was/is.

    Looking at EQN, it seems SOE themselves are looking to take a fresh approach to mmorpgs. Obviously they are influenced not only by their own games, but others, they seem to be trying to think outside the box. If Pantheon could at least try to update EQ and not just slap a different IP on top of the 99 version, they might have better luck.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Well, both Kickstarters got funded, one for the tech demo, and one for the game, so there seems to be enough of a market for their game.  It doesn't look like they are trying to build a game that's going to take fifty million dollars to make, so hopefully they've scaled their development costs to what they'll actually make.  Maybe they don't even care if it makes money.  They just have to end up with enough money to make the game itself.

     

    **

     

    My bad.  I must have been thinking about something else.  Something else that starts with a P got through both of their Kickstarters.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NergleNergle Okemos, MIPosts: 253Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Caldicot
    I just don't understand how Mark Jacobs got 2 million for a pvp focused game when Brad cant even get 500 k for a pve mmo.

    Arena/BG PVP is more popular then grind fest PVE and Mark is trying to make a simpler game, not the most epic old school game ever. DAoC/WAR left better memories burned in my mind then EQ and I feel the pain for those that tried to play Vanguard early on.

    Now if Raph Koster was doing a KS, I might be interested. MUDs, UO, SWG, heck even EQ2, sign me up.

    Arena BG pvp is not more popular, open world sand box PvP is. WOW went to shit when the crucified open world PvP.

    BG PvP spoon fed people gear and stats for PvP open world PvP  made individuals actually use a little bit of brain power to create gear and items that worked in open world PvP. If Mark said that BG/arena PvP was his focus, I would have never gave him a penny either.

  • AbndnAbndn OsloPosts: 53Member
    Originally posted by Allein
    Originally posted by Abndn
    Originally posted by Allein

    EQ was not that popular and has little influence in today's market.

    EQ peaked around 500k subs which was insanely popular for a video game at the time. It has an enormous influence on today's market because World of Warcraft was so heavily influenced by it. WoW's early subscriber base consisted mainly of old Everquest players because the transition was so natural. Developers may not look directly towards Everquest anymore, but its influence lives on through WoW and permeates the industry.

    It was the most popular game for a while after it overtook UO. Factoring in today's market the 500k at peak vs 15+ million WoW or even 67+ million LoL is nothing, EQ lives in the shadows now. Those that played EQ in the early days and then moved on to WoW and other games aren't the majority.

    WoW was definitely influenced by EQ just like EQ was influenced by D&D and MUDs. Many features that made EQ, EQ are not popular these days and the vast majority of gamers have no clue how/what EQ was/is.

    Looking at EQN, it seems SOE themselves are looking to take a fresh approach to mmorpgs. Obviously they are influenced not only by their own games, but others, they seem to be trying to think outside the box. If Pantheon could at least try to update EQ and not just slap a different IP on top of the 99 version, they might have better luck.

    You can't use today's numbers to argue that Everquest was never popular in the first place. You're effectively saying that nothing can ever be popular if something else like it will be significantly more popular in the future. It follows that almost nothing was ever popular in the past, since we can point to similar modern activities that are more popular.

    We'd then also have to suspend judgement and stop calling LoL and WoW popular, since we might eventually be proven wrong by a new title popping up in the future that pulls much higher numbers.

    I'm really not all that interested in discussing EQ's influence, I just wanted to point out your poor reasoning skills.

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member

    The kickstarter campaign was set up for two reasons: to get enough funds to begin the project and to show publishers that there is genuine interest in a old school type of MMO.

     

    It seemed to of failed miserably. I didn't back it because there was no ideas that grabbed me. When I read about it and listened to the the guys wanting to make the game I thought, "meh, I've played this type of MMO before and I am ready for something different."

    I do believe that I am the audience the game was targeted at, but I want an MMO with the spirit of the old EQ and Vanguard type of games, but done in a better way. I'm done with static worlds and no collision detection and petty quests. Give me a world thats alive and is ready to chew me up and spit me out.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,784Member Uncommon

    Whether it takes more than $800k to make an MMORPG depends on what you want to implement in the game.  If you wanted a really bare-bones feature set with not much content and the only real goal is that it has to be an MMORPG, then that can be done in well under $800k.

    Still, a claim of "if you give us $800k now, we'll figure out where to get more money elsewhere later" strikes me as rather fishy.

  • sethman75sethman75 the gongPosts: 212Member Uncommon

    Hmm Star Citizen > $38 million

    Braid Quaid lead group only based game > $800k

    Do the math about demand

     

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,555Member
    As much as I support developers turning to Kickstarter for their dream projects or just want their idea hopefully be turned into a potential great game. The man in question which has had a not so stellar past. Reputation means everything in any industry working as a professional he ruined his.

    image

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sethman75

    Hmm Star Citizen > $38 million

    Braid Quaid lead group only based game > $800k

    Do the math about demand

     

    As if those are the only factors to this equation.

    Try again?

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