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Throw out the intro narrative and just put me in the damn game!

24

Comments

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,214Member Uncommon

    Intros shouldn't go, but they've gone overboard. The original intent of the starter areas was to give players an opportunity to get a feel for the game before ramping up difficulty and throwing you out into the cold cruel world.

    Lineage - This game had a great starter area. You could stay and level a bit, learn the ropes, and even get some great starter gear. Remember when you got great starter gear from the starter area and not the pre-order bonus? The key thing here is that you could skip it if you wanted, but people didn't because the xp bonus was sweet and it was a neat area.

    Starter areas need to get back to their roots and be optional. Although I'll remind people that in the less brutal worlds we live in today this allows even easier fast tracking of new characters for gold spammers. Just a thought.

    @Loktofeit - It does seem like devs create their games in a vacuum sometimes.

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 812Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    Originally posted by Velocinox

    My point being; there are new players coming along all the time. You assume everyone is a skilled MMO player, but the most important customer to an MMO is the player that is trying MMOs for the first time. And they are joining the genre everyday. If the devs turn those people off, they don't get a second chance.

     

    New people don't need that either. People who agreed with OP had an excellent first experienced without all that crap.

    Why would you assume new people need that today?

    You're on an MMO site referencing long term MMO players saying they fondly remember their first encounter with MMOs and you're comparing that to people who have no idea what is going on? That's is both anecdotal and extremely source-biased.

     

    One of the biggest complaints that players that tried EQ and disliked it was that they had no idea what was going on. They tried to play and something terrible happened, and then they quit. Regardless of what you think of these people; stupid, cry babies, weak, or whatever derogatory term you apply to them to prop up your own ego, I can tell you their money and continued support are deeply respected by the MMO industry.

     

    Try to see this from a broader perspective than your own experience. You are people that played game X (let's say EQ) and what happened afterwards attracted your attention. Things went right, or only wrong enough to keep your attention until things did go right, but not bad enough to turn you off completely. So you stayed in the game genre and went on to years of fun which lead to this moment where you are lamenting the need for new user experiences and tutorials. What about the person that logged into EQ and for whatever reason things went so terrible or unfun that they decided MMOs were not their type of game. Are they here to post to the thread ans say, 'hey, if there had been a tute in EQ I would have stuck with it and the audience for MMOs would one player bigger." No. they stopped playing. They aren't here to give their take on tutorials, they are off playing Titanfall or Civ5. Not giving MMOs a second chance... THAT is why MMOs have beginning areas so that the people that need the money to keep the lights on (and the servers humming) don't miss the chance to get that kind of customer again.

     

    To say that MMOs don't need tutorials and starting areas, is both short sighted and shows a lack of insight in just what an MMO team have to think about to attract as many paying customers as possible.

    You're making way to many assumptions.

    Now you assume that I care about all the people who didn't feel connected with the game. You assume that I care about the broader view. The reason I play is not to please one part of the community. My goal is to connect with people who enjoy the same. To me the exploration and a little bit effort to find your way is an essential part of the game. And I think that's a point the OP was making as well.

    You can call that selfish. But yeah, recreation is quite selfish in a way.

     

    Fortunately for the future of the industry, the makers of these game do care about these people. Of course, that's why they are the professionals.

    Well the industry isn't exactly doing very well so you might actually want to rethink your case.

    And you might want to rethink crying about 10 minutes of a game that lasts for months. Be tough for ten minutes of your life.

    Come on try to act a little bit mature here, no need to get all personal.

    Let's settle it down peacefully. You're the selfless visionary, the prophet of MMOs and I'm the simple consumer who seeks fun. We're both right in our own way. OK?

    Act mature? You mean like saying people that work hard to provide you with something you love should give up the extra money new players generate just to save you 10 minutes of a game intro?

     

    The Angry Joe video the OP references was literally done with the part he was complaining about in 10 minutes, including all the times he stopped to complain about it.

     

    You're so mature you can't put up with 10 minutes of a game so the makers have a chance to get new players to support their effort? I can't agree with that impatient mentality.

     

    Jeez, some games even let you skip those unbearable 10 minutes.

     

     

     

    I don't care about Angry Joe. I care about game features and game quality.

    I care about what I like in a game. And that happens to be more freedom and less cinematic gameplay. It's a subjective matter. Some people like it, some people don't. I tend to have more fun with people who do. 

    You insist on it that I have to like it the way you like it. Seriously, what's wrong with you :-)

    You're not that much of a selfless visionary anymore :(

     

    I mentioned you could skip them. That is choice. Respecting both opinions.

     

    You said new players don't need them. That is insisting they play your way... what is wrong with you?

     

    The bottom line is it is still only 10 minutes and some even let you skip them. If we're going to get into what we care about and what we don't.... I don't care that you get impatient in a game less than 10 minutes into it.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • SirPKsAlotSirPKsAlot bagong silangPosts: 224Member
    Lol really? I mean we already click through all the quest dialogue and cutscenes, go from point A to point B while questing as is marked on ours maps without actually memorizing the terrain, what is it that we really want to get to so quickly? MMORPG's used to be about the journey not the destination. Where are you going so quickly bud? Stop and smell the roses, you might smell something you enjoy.

    image
    Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthPosts: 2,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sludgebeard

    Just do it like WoW did, have a 15sec intro cinematic that also sprawls through the opener zone, and then bam! Release the character into the opener zone and let them travel openly to anywhere the player likes. 

     

    City of Heroes also did a good job at it, it had a prompt to ask you if you wished to skip the tutorial and go straight to the real game areas.

    Not that the tutorial was very long to begin with, but still, if you made a lot of alts it could save you countless hours. image

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Games can just charge you $60 and shoot you right to end game like WoW. No leveling at all just boom you win.
  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member
    Devs have lost the plot. It's like when you make something, you can't see very well what's wrong with it.
    I blame the people they give initial alpha and beta access to.

    They're either not being listened to or their noses are so brown that their spot is wasted on them.

    If I had gotten my hands on Wildstar or TESO much earlier I might've contributed some ideas how to spice up the intros.

    As they are right now... godspeed.
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I find that new character experiences are often a painful slog to get through before I reach anything that feels like meaningful gameplay, but I think a gamemaker needs to be more worried about a new player hitting a brick wall that makes them quit than whether an experienced player gets a little bored.  My real problem is that I'm a sandbox player clinging to an industry that has leaned heavily in the themepark direction - Minecraft is really my ideal new character experience.

     

     

  • zevianzevian toledo, OHPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    The thing about starter zones is you always have to start somewhere.

     

    You could skip the directions on how to play, (heres your bags, heres how you set up your bars, etc...).

     

    I had suggested in the past just making a game that dumps you in a lobby with the option of a bunch of raids pvp and small group dungeons.   then you just advance by opening skills, gaining attributes or getting better gear.

       Its an interesting idea since anymore everyone is worried about getting to the end and just doing the same 5 things over and over again.

     

    they could be MMOLG's  massive multiplayer online lobby games.   since the whole point of roleplaying is being a part of a story the rpg part could just be dropped.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    I say this as someone who has been gaming for 25 years - are some of you so ego-centric that you don't understand that tutorial areas are designed and meant for people who don't have as much experience as you?

    As for WoW letting you "go where ever you wanted". Yes, technically you could. But you couldn't kill mobs once you exceeded your level range and you couldn't pick up quests until you were of appropriate level. So yes, you could just get going, but you couldn't realistically progress.

    Not only that, the first quests are designed so players can get familiar with the first abilities (trainer quests), too.

     

    But the OP comments confirms that MMOs share the same players, and have too similar in scope starting areas, that players feel they're all the same and can be ignored.

     

    Sadly, MMOs don't have a true starter area (PS2 comes close, but with static targets, in a game with bullet drop mechanics) where players can test the skills against NPCs so when they reach level 10, and start instance groups, they are prepared PROPERLY.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,279Member Uncommon

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

    Why in such a hurry? House burning down?

  • zevianzevian toledo, OHPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by sludgebeard

    Im so sick of seeing these MMO's where you have to go through 10 fetch quests, and kill a bunch of pointless mobs just to get into the core game world. Watching the Angry Joe review of Wildstar where he spends the first 20 minutes of the game picking up books and talking to floating cambots, I just thought "enoughs enough", these are pointless narrative building quests that only slow down he intro to a hopeless crawl.

     Just do it like WoW did, have a 15sec intro cinematic that also sprawls through the opener zone, and then bam! Release the character into the opener zone and let them travel openly to anywhere the player likes. 

     Does anyone else find these modern MMO starter zones to be boring and shallow? 

     

    As an old hand at MMORPG's I want to agree but then it would be disingenuous of me. Sometimes we have to admit that not every aspect of a game is made with us in mind. Every title aspires to attract new blood, new players, into the genre and they need the hand holding the intro fetch quests and narrative build up provides. Even the newer starting areas of WOW do the same thing now as improving the starter experience was worth while for them. In light of that I simply can't agree about Wildstar in that regard as it feels like an unfair criticism for a casual themepark game.

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,617Member Uncommon
    Game doesn't need end game just infinite leveling. Starter zones are a waste of time I think unless it just puts you in the middle of it and expects you to figure it out for yourself which it doesn't. You could go anywhere in WoW since I remember on my human I somehow ended up in the night elf zone and followed the quests there instead of the human zone back before they made SW / Org the main hangout places and FPs bugged out.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by emperorwings
    Game doesn't need end game just infinite leveling. Starter zones are a waste of time I think unless it just puts you in the middle of it and expects you to figure it out for yourself which it doesn't. You could go anywhere in WoW since I remember on my human I somehow ended up in the night elf zone and followed the quests there instead of the human zone back before they made SW / Org the main hangout places and FPs bugged out.

    Yet infinite leveling becomes a bore as THE activity, too.

     

    If there were no levels, and just skills for example, the game will have to increase the skills as a measure of progression. Then when skills are so leveled skills need something to be used upon, and that's where we are today: leveling to cap or skilling to cap.

     

    Besides, a level 10000 game also would be an instant put off, too. :/

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by jazz.be
    I don't care about Angry Joe. I care about game features and game quality.

    I care about what I like in a game. And that happens to be more freedom and less cinematic gameplay. It's a subjective matter. Some people like it, some people don't. I tend to have more fun with people who do. 

    You insist on it that I have to like it the way you like it. Seriously, what's wrong with you :-)

    You're not that much of a selfless visionary anymore :(

     

    I mentioned you could skip them. That is choice. Respecting both opinions.

     

    You said new players don't need them. That is insisting they play your way... what is wrong with you?

     

    The bottom line is it is still only 10 minutes and some even let you skip them. If we're going to get into what we care about and what we don't.... I don't care that you get impatient in a game less than 10 minutes into it.

    Nope, I'm not insisting they play it my way. I already told you I simply don't care about them. 

    Let me clear something up though, I'm not just talking about 10 minutes. I'm talking about the whole concept of making the gamer enjoy the ride with cinematic experiences and conveniences and what not. We get confronted with it in the first 10-60 minutes, but it often carries on through out the whole game. 

    Maybe I got carried away and took a much larger context than what OP was talking about.

    If it's really just the tutorial that is kind of soft then I'm ok with it. But really, the tutorial most of the time is a good indication of how soft the game is.

  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

    It's more than 10 minutes to get off the Destiny (Dominion) mothership.

  • zevianzevian toledo, OHPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

    It's more than 10 minutes to get off the Destiny (Dominion) mothership.

    Fine then its 15-20 minutes,   if it takes you longer than your the type of player who needs the intro quests.

  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

    It's more than 10 minutes to get off the Destiny (Dominion) mothership.

    FIne then its 20 minutes,  regardless its very very fast,   if it takes you longer than your the type of player who needs the intro quests.

    Exactly. Speaking about newbies to the game/genre. They need time to adjust to the whole game and the way things are presented so it takes a bit of time to get off the ship.

    That bit of time is more than enough for many to simply give up on the game. It needs to grab them right off the bat. 

    Do not dismiss the complaints. I can just imagine it, when the gates open and the masses try the game.

    I'm in Ellevar and really enjoying myself. We need to get people to come that far.

  • EpiconEpicon Santa Rosa, CAPosts: 121Member

    Just the option to skip it, if we have already done it once, or for those who don't care about lore.

    That way everybody wins.

    "What tastes like purple?"

  • zevianzevian toledo, OHPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

    It's more than 10 minutes to get off the Destiny (Dominion) mothership.

    FIne then its 20 minutes,  regardless its very very fast,   if it takes you longer than your the type of player who needs the intro quests.

    Exactly. Speaking about newbies to the game/genre. They need time to adjust to the whole game and the way things are presented so it takes a bit of time to get off the ship.

    That bit of time is more than enough for many to simply give up on the game. It needs to grab them right off the bat. 

    Do not dismiss the complaints. I can just imagine it, when the gates open and the masses try the game.

    I'm in Ellevar and really enjoying myself. We need to get people to come that far.

    If you quit a game because you cant invest more than 30 minutes moving forward than you shouldnt be playing a game.  The amount of time the starting area takes is irrelevant if you actually enjoy the game.   It leads to people wanting things fast and faster and before you know it your selling instant 90's, and cheapening the rest of the experience.   How does a game grab someone if it doesnt present any sort of story in the beginning, or introduce you to movement etc..        I could see it being a lot more frustrating to get thrown into a zone with a bunch of abilities, and 0 direction.    

     

  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rusque
    I say this as someone who has been gaming for 25 years - are some of you so ego-centric that you don't understand that tutorial areas are designed and meant for people who don't have as much experience as you?

    what this guy said.

    although if your target audience is the mmo veteran (like pantheon) for example) then i agree with the OP.

    but if you are an mmo like ESO and want to get your fans that are not used to playing mmo's used to the genre, i think a tutorial area is kind of important.

    i think it's a small price to pay to have to endure a few hours of a tutorial when you won't ever have to do it again unless you make an alt.

    not only that but if it is a themepark it gets you into the story and lore of the game anyways.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by zevian
    Originally posted by bcbully

    I would pay an extra 20$ With my box (digital box is a scam) cost to skip WS and ESO tutorials. Seriously, I'm not gonna make it though wildstar's tutorial, it's a damn shame. I'm not kill my vibe on that shit. I'm stuck with my same crummy character in ESO's beta, because I refuse to do that starter stuff again until lauch.

     

    Wildstars tutorial is like 10 min long tops, then your dropped into the action,   ive seen both sides on mmorpg's, livestream of the game.  

     

    20$ for 10 min of a little backstory?

    It's more than 10 minutes to get off the Destiny (Dominion) mothership.

    FIne then its 20 minutes,  regardless its very very fast,   if it takes you longer than your the type of player who needs the intro quests.

    Exactly. Speaking about newbies to the game/genre. They need time to adjust to the whole game and the way things are presented so it takes a bit of time to get off the ship.

    That bit of time is more than enough for many to simply give up on the game. It needs to grab them right off the bat. 

    Do not dismiss the complaints. I can just imagine it, when the gates open and the masses try the game.

    I'm in Ellevar and really enjoying myself. We need to get people to come that far.

    If you quit a game because you cant invest more than 30 minutes moving forward than you shouldnt be playing a game.  The amount of time the starting area takes is irrelevant if you actually enjoy the game.   It leads to people wanting things fast and faster and before you know it your selling instant 90's, and cheapening the rest of the experience.   How does a game grab someone if it doesnt present any sort of story in the beginning, or introduce you to movement etc..        I could see it being a lot more frustrating to get thrown into a zone with a bunch of abilities, and 0 direction.    

     

    In truth though, the starting areas aren't really teaching players the skills those starting areas are meant to do. There's no mechanics overview. There's no training dummies or target ranges to get used to a game's targeting system. Theres no trying X class and seeing if they even want to level it, then and there.

     

    When devs give players a true starter area, where it's about the mechanics; and truly getting used to ALL the spells and abilities a class can offer in that one area, it is pointless.

     

    Personally, I rather be stuck in a training room with a target dummy and a 100 pages to read about mechanics, than killing 10 boars in 10 quests to reach level 10 to get a level 10 spell...anyday.

  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member

    The intro area is fairly necessary for almost all MMORPGs for the total beginner it allows him to gradually learn the controls and methodology used to play a MMORPG. For a veteran it allows you to spot the differences between this game and the others.

    A vet can usually clear the starter area in short order if he wishes to click through the text etc. A total beginner can take his time.

    Seriously these are games that are meant to take time surely you can spare the 30 min to an hour needed to clear the starting point ?

     

     

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon
    I like them the first time.  But, I would like the option to skip it on alts.  Just put me 10 levels up past all the tutorial BS.  OPTIONAL is the key here, this way new players or those who really enjoy it for whatever reason, aren't screwed.
    image
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