This makes my laugh. Why? Because my wonderful witfe makes comments about doing her "dailies", when she plays jewel-swapping games on her tablet. (She wont pay so she only gets to so many "lives" a day, I don't actually get it). She has never played a MMO and had never heard of "daily" quests.
So I laugh nervously and wonder if my beloved genera has become nothing more that glorified "jewel-swappers".
I agree gear only progression stinks. I liked the old AA progression system back in everquest. You could split your xp into either leveling or AA points and once you got max level you could put it all into AA points. Some of them took a lot of xp, but that was ok, you always felt that you were accomplishing at least that when you logged in. The problem is since most mmo's have become so pvp based, that system doesn't really work since it over rewards people who play a lot vs people who play less. In pve that doesn't matter so much, but in pvp it can be game breaking.
As far as daily quests, I understand the point of them and why they are in games, but if anything else, make them weekly quests and make sure you change them up once in a while. It really sux to log into a game for 3 hours and do nothing but the same daily quests every day because you need to grind out a certain faction. It's one of the quickest ways to burn out on a game.
I too do not mind dailies at all when they are un-forced and actually rewarding.
GW2 I think does a great job of Daily/Monthly as you get to choose (with a limited set) your tasks to complete, get a reward for doing so, and make progress on Monthly goals at the same time.
Good blend of instant + longer term gratification. Good reward structure.
Interesting, I did try GW2 when my son bought it, got a character to level 15 as I recall. Once thing I disliked about it was the daily quests that popped up. Instead of pursuing whatever goal I wanted, there was this list of activities the game wanted me to do.
it really came to roost when I would get "kill water monsters" while in a snow or desert zone, the completionist in me just went wild knowing I had this unfinished task.
I dislike holiday events for the same reason, they derail me from following my "plan" and require participation "now" or the window of opportunity is missed.
I can definitely see that.
There is a lot of content to consume for a first-time GW2 player, probably wouldn't hurt to be able to easily/automatically ignore the daily activities until higher levels.
If daily only was like an adventure that was randomly generated being an epic quest to hike through some dungeon or crypt solving puzzles to get to the grand reward.
Smells like an "I don't like theme parks" or "I don't like new games" rant to me.
Does anyone really prefer themeparks over an ideal sandbox game? I think everyone would take the dynamic content over a static world with dailies repeated... well... daily. Same thing, over and over.
Now as for whining and complaining, I'm fine when people do it, because it means companies might take notice faster and figure out ways to really bring the proper dynamic sandbox into being, rather than all the turds that've released up to this point (Eve excluded, but that one has it's own pile of problems.)
That doesn't mean everyone hates themeparks. I don't mind them. I don't like them as much as the idea of a proper sandbox. But if they're all I have to choose from, well, might as well have fun as I can.
But unless you actually like doing the same thing day after day (I don't know, maybe your worklife is super exciting so you just want a break from all that diversity and prefer to relax with a brain numbing shot of dailies,) I wouldn't get upset about someone ranting over themeparks. More complaints = more change. Maybe if there were more complaints, games like Archeage wouldn't pull SWG CUs and shoot themselves and their sandbox in the foot in an effort to be more WoW-like.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
We'll see when we have a choice. Right now 'market prefers' this because it's everything we got now. I don't play ten years old games anymore even if i liked them when they were new, so comparing new themeparks with the old sandbox games don't work.
So how did the games get to be the way they are now? If it wasn't what the market preferred, what was it? Magic? Evil developers who decided to make games that the market did not prefer, and they sold anyway? For over a decade? That would be an amazing story.
The mythical sandbox (or old school, whatever) revolution that turns the market on its head where those ten year old games get rewritten to take the market by storm is not going to happen. EQN an EQN:L is what the sandbox revolution looks like. Wildstar incorporates sandbox mechanics too. ESO is incorporating open world PvP in their economy, a very sandbox thing since control of portions of the game world are necessary to sell anything outside of your guild. It's all wrapped in a new, shiny package that appeals to the current generation of gamers though. That includes quests, dungeon or raid instances, instanced PvP, phasing and yes, probably Dailies.
The future may not even be MMORPGs so much as it's just MMOs, where players can decide on the fly whether or not to even play with other people. Kind of like the game that Richard Garriott, the guy who birthed Ultima Online is working on right now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I hated when FFXIV said they would be using Dailies (especially since I am fairly confident they said they would not early in re-development).
I was happy with the dailies they did though. I think the reason it was overwhelming in WoW was because I came in late and had a ton of dailies to do in order to get exalted.
I too do not mind dailies at all when they are un-forced and actually rewarding.
GW2 I think does a great job of Daily/Monthly as you get to choose (with a limited set) your tasks to complete, get a reward for doing so, and make progress on Monthly goals at the same time.
Good blend of instant + longer term gratification. Good reward structure.
Interesting, I did try GW2 when my son bought it, got a character to level 15 as I recall. Once thing I disliked about it was the daily quests that popped up. Instead of pursuing whatever goal I wanted, there was this list of activities the game wanted me to do.
it really came to roost when I would get "kill water monsters" while in a snow or desert zone, the completionist in me just went wild knowing I had this unfinished task.
I dislike holiday events for the same reason, they derail me from following my "plan" and require participation "now" or the window of opportunity is missed.
I totally agree. I've backed Elite: Dangerous to the tune of £70 in the hope that a combination of a computer generated universe + human created content + unpredictable human players will finally promote the idea of liberty and freedom.
However, I'm financially backing the concept, rather than expecting a perfect result to materialise!
Originally posted by Dauzqul Other than WoW, the following is the recipe for disaster.
Why does wow get a pass?.
still waiting for this answer myself. in my opinion, WoW is the reason we all get "stuck" with dailies
I can only give my take on it.
It is hard to say, "This is what's wrong..." when WoW is so successful with the feature being criticized. Thus, WoW is the exception to the theory, and gets a "pass", so that it isn't brought up as a counter-argument. "But WoW does this!" replies would infest the thread if not given a pass, just for the sake of argument.
I agree that many publishers look to WoW (still) and try to emulate what "they think" is the reason for the success, but is that WoW's fault, or all the players playing new games with this feature, giving the publishers the data to be mined that show publishers it is working?
What would happen if players stopped doing dailies? This will never happen, so we are stuck with them.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Dauzqul Other than WoW, the following is the recipe for disaster.
Why does wow get a pass?.
still waiting for this answer myself. in my opinion, WoW is the reason we all get "stuck" with dailies
I can only give my take on it.
It is hard to say, "This is what's wrong..." when WoW is so successful with the feature being criticized. Thus, WoW is the exception to the theory, and gets a "pass", so that it isn't brought up as a counter-argument. "But WoW does this!" replies would infest the thread if not given a pass, just for the sake of argument.
I agree that many publishers look to WoW (still) and try to emulate what "they think" is the reason for the success, but is that WoW's fault, or all the players playing new games with this feature, giving the publishers the data to be mined that show publishers it is working?
What would happen if players stopped doing dailies? This will never happen, so we are stuck with them.
. WoW relies excessively on a reinforcement schedules. This is called operant conditioning. Dallies work because people want the shinies that they confer. By making loot very powerful in WoW people feel compelled to do dallies. This sounds like simple genius and would leave us trapped doing dallies forever.
But the only good news is that although people do the dallies - they ended up HATING the game. Its an interesting phenom where the player can be addicted but dislike the addiction. THis comes from too much reliance on operant conditioning in MMOs. Its a good money making tactic but players do eventually catch on. WoW pushed it way to far at the start of MOP - and you can expect future developers to reign it in.
I think this thread is too late. WoW learned their lesson. In fariness they just started going daily crazy because of the cries of casual who didn't want to raid or do dungeons, but yet wanted to advance.
God praise the king! the first genius among genius we have had on the internet, and in particular, these forums for a long time to come. I absolutely undoubtedly agree with the three statements you just made.
1. time capped things, dailies, weeklies, should be scrapped entirely.
2. Content should be made a hell of a lot harder, depending on the game, none of this hybrid "casual/ hardcore" gameplay, either a hardcore game, or a casual game.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
Looking at the last decade+ of MMORPGs tells me that the market preferred one specific themepark. It tells me that many developers believed that there was a huge market for 'themeparks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc' but found - to their great expense - that there was simply a huge market for World of Warcraft.
I really don't mind doing dailies, quest hubs etc.
The thing that annoys me the most is, unfortunately the player. Especially the players who insist on you reading about raids/dungeons before you actually experience them.
Just to jump in with all the other people who said about the same thing, have you not looked at the last fifteen years worth of MMORPGs? Yes, the market prefers theme parks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc. That's not to say there isn't merit in sandboxes, but so far, sandboxes do not have the success of theme park games.
Looking at the last decade+ of MMORPGs tells me that the market preferred one specific themepark. It tells me that many developers believed that there was a huge market for 'themeparks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc' but found - to their great expense - that there was simply a huge market for World of Warcraft.
Many, many developers made a specific type of game and brought in many, many people. An order of magnitude more people than ever wanted to touch MMORPGs before. Of course, they fumbled because they rushed to get into the market, and except for Trion didn't actually finish their games before releasing them, but that doesn't change the size of the market now v. the size of the market a decade ago. Even ignoring WoW, the market would be an order of magnitude larger than it was, and it would be because of games with all the features that this thread says are "bad".
More people prefer these features to what came before. They have expections about the details, as anyone would, but given a choice between what came before and what is available now, the market chose what's available now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I too do not mind dailies at all when they are un-forced and actually rewarding.
GW2 I think does a great job of Daily/Monthly as you get to choose (with a limited set) your tasks to complete, get a reward for doing so, and make progress on Monthly goals at the same time.
Good blend of instant + longer term gratification. Good reward structure.
Though I am not a GW2 fan, I don't mind dailies either, as long as they are rewarding and aren't forced. Reputation grinds?Seriously? Reputation grinds are horribly lazy developed content. I like when there are unforced dailies at early levels.
Looking at the last decade+ of MMORPGs tells me that the market preferred one specific themepark. It tells me that many developers believed that there was a huge market for 'themeparks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc' but found - to their great expense - that there was simply a huge market for World of Warcraft.
nah ... TOR made more than $200M in 2013 alone .. so there is a huge market for f2p star wars themepark too.
Comments
This is a good reply.
here are the worst things in the genre
Fast leveling
endgame tiered progression. make it risk vs reward, not new vs. old and smooth it out
linear dungeons. this is far worse than instanced, LDoN was great instanced content because they still had dungeon crawl feel
This makes my laugh. Why? Because my wonderful witfe makes comments about doing her "dailies", when she plays jewel-swapping games on her tablet. (She wont pay so she only gets to so many "lives" a day, I don't actually get it). She has never played a MMO and had never heard of "daily" quests.
So I laugh nervously and wonder if my beloved genera has become nothing more that glorified "jewel-swappers".
oh another big one:
gear only progression
There needs to be a way to increase player power outside of gear at endgame.
Why does wow get a pass?.
still waiting for this answer myself. in my opinion, WoW is the reason we all get "stuck" with dailies
I agree gear only progression stinks. I liked the old AA progression system back in everquest. You could split your xp into either leveling or AA points and once you got max level you could put it all into AA points. Some of them took a lot of xp, but that was ok, you always felt that you were accomplishing at least that when you logged in. The problem is since most mmo's have become so pvp based, that system doesn't really work since it over rewards people who play a lot vs people who play less. In pve that doesn't matter so much, but in pvp it can be game breaking.
As far as daily quests, I understand the point of them and why they are in games, but if anything else, make them weekly quests and make sure you change them up once in a while. It really sux to log into a game for 3 hours and do nothing but the same daily quests every day because you need to grind out a certain faction. It's one of the quickest ways to burn out on a game.
Not all who wander are lost...
I can definitely see that.
There is a lot of content to consume for a first-time GW2 player, probably wouldn't hurt to be able to easily/automatically ignore the daily activities until higher levels.
What other publishers put in their games is not Blizzard's fault. That's their problem for COPYING WoW!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
If daily only was like an adventure that was randomly generated being an epic quest to hike through some dungeon or crypt solving puzzles to get to the grand reward.
So how did the games get to be the way they are now? If it wasn't what the market preferred, what was it? Magic? Evil developers who decided to make games that the market did not prefer, and they sold anyway? For over a decade? That would be an amazing story.
The mythical sandbox (or old school, whatever) revolution that turns the market on its head where those ten year old games get rewritten to take the market by storm is not going to happen. EQN an EQN:L is what the sandbox revolution looks like. Wildstar incorporates sandbox mechanics too. ESO is incorporating open world PvP in their economy, a very sandbox thing since control of portions of the game world are necessary to sell anything outside of your guild. It's all wrapped in a new, shiny package that appeals to the current generation of gamers though. That includes quests, dungeon or raid instances, instanced PvP, phasing and yes, probably Dailies.
The future may not even be MMORPGs so much as it's just MMOs, where players can decide on the fly whether or not to even play with other people. Kind of like the game that Richard Garriott, the guy who birthed Ultima Online is working on right now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Joined - July 2004
I hated when FFXIV said they would be using Dailies (especially since I am fairly confident they said they would not early in re-development).
I was happy with the dailies they did though. I think the reason it was overwhelming in WoW was because I came in late and had a ton of dailies to do in order to get exalted.
I totally agree. I've backed Elite: Dangerous to the tune of £70 in the hope that a combination of a computer generated universe + human created content + unpredictable human players will finally promote the idea of liberty and freedom.
However, I'm financially backing the concept, rather than expecting a perfect result to materialise!
It is hard to say, "This is what's wrong..." when WoW is so successful with the feature being criticized. Thus, WoW is the exception to the theory, and gets a "pass", so that it isn't brought up as a counter-argument. "But WoW does this!" replies would infest the thread if not given a pass, just for the sake of argument.
I agree that many publishers look to WoW (still) and try to emulate what "they think" is the reason for the success, but is that WoW's fault, or all the players playing new games with this feature, giving the publishers the data to be mined that show publishers it is working?
What would happen if players stopped doing dailies? This will never happen, so we are stuck with them.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
. WoW relies excessively on a reinforcement schedules. This is called operant conditioning. Dallies work because people want the shinies that they confer. By making loot very powerful in WoW people feel compelled to do dallies. This sounds like simple genius and would leave us trapped doing dallies forever.
But the only good news is that although people do the dallies - they ended up HATING the game. Its an interesting phenom where the player can be addicted but dislike the addiction. THis comes from too much reliance on operant conditioning in MMOs. Its a good money making tactic but players do eventually catch on. WoW pushed it way to far at the start of MOP - and you can expect future developers to reign it in.
I think this thread is too late. WoW learned their lesson. In fariness they just started going daily crazy because of the cries of casual who didn't want to raid or do dungeons, but yet wanted to advance.
Strongly agree with the OP
Dailies are the worst addition to mmorpgs in a long time because they usually make "normal" grinding horrible or not possible.
God praise the king! the first genius among genius we have had on the internet, and in particular, these forums for a long time to come. I absolutely undoubtedly agree with the three statements you just made.
1. time capped things, dailies, weeklies, should be scrapped entirely.
2. Content should be made a hell of a lot harder, depending on the game, none of this hybrid "casual/ hardcore" gameplay, either a hardcore game, or a casual game.
Looking at the last decade+ of MMORPGs tells me that the market preferred one specific themepark. It tells me that many developers believed that there was a huge market for 'themeparks, with dailies, repeatable dungeons, repeatable raids, battlegrounds, etc' but found - to their great expense - that there was simply a huge market for World of Warcraft.
@OP - I just resubbed to wow so I could play warsong gultch. it's fun I couldn't help it.
I really don't mind doing dailies, quest hubs etc.
The thing that annoys me the most is, unfortunately the player. Especially the players who insist on you reading about raids/dungeons before you actually experience them.
[mod edit]
Many, many developers made a specific type of game and brought in many, many people. An order of magnitude more people than ever wanted to touch MMORPGs before. Of course, they fumbled because they rushed to get into the market, and except for Trion didn't actually finish their games before releasing them, but that doesn't change the size of the market now v. the size of the market a decade ago. Even ignoring WoW, the market would be an order of magnitude larger than it was, and it would be because of games with all the features that this thread says are "bad".
More people prefer these features to what came before. They have expections about the details, as anyone would, but given a choice between what came before and what is available now, the market chose what's available now.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Though I am not a GW2 fan, I don't mind dailies either, as long as they are rewarding and aren't forced. Reputation grinds?Seriously? Reputation grinds are horribly lazy developed content. I like when there are unforced dailies at early levels.
nah ... TOR made more than $200M in 2013 alone .. so there is a huge market for f2p star wars themepark too.