I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Keep us posted on any new developments, since I don't follow this experiment SOE is promoting.. The more I hear, the more dancing I see.. I'm just wondering at this point if the EQN design here is that everyone can be everything (concerning roles), so people aren't waiting for a particular class role to become available.. This way David is correct in saying "there are roles" IF you wish to play it like that.. and NO trinity because everyone is self reliant.. We all saw where that leads in GW2.. I think once we see actual combat in video , and a list of various SKILLS and SPELLS available, we'll get a better picture..
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Keep us posted on any new developments, since I don't follow this experiment SOE is promoting.. The more I hear, the more dancing I see.. I'm just wondering at this point if the EQN design here is that everyone can be everything (concerning roles), so people aren't waiting for a particular class role to become available.. This way David is correct in saying "there are roles" IF you wish to play it like that.. and NO trinity because everyone is self reliant.. We all saw where that leads in GW2.. I think once we see actual combat in video , and a list of various SKILLS and SPELLS available, we'll get a better picture..
Saw it in WoW too: challenge modes -- a healer is a loss of DPS, no invites.
There's a reason why Battlefield didn't give Assault both the medic and ammo kits (why even have any other class, forget roles?). ^-^
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Keep us posted on any new developments, since I don't follow this experiment SOE is promoting.. The more I hear, the more dancing I see.. I'm just wondering at this point if the EQN design here is that everyone can be everything (concerning roles), so people aren't waiting for a particular class role to become available.. This way David is correct in saying "there are roles" IF you wish to play it like that.. and NO trinity because everyone is self reliant.. We all saw where that leads in GW2.. I think once we see actual combat in video , and a list of various SKILLS and SPELLS available, we'll get a better picture..
Everyone can be everything because when you make a char you can play almost every class with that char. You collect classes like cards. Doing some quest helping some tribe they teach you what it means to be a Shaman. Now you can level your Shaman skill line. Not sure if you can cross class skills but thats part of it. So you team, who wants to tank? Between everyone you should have what you need to make a working team.
There is no taunt but there is defensive skills. So you can play the tank role but not like in a classic trinity way. The details on how healing, dps and tanking in this game works is where David said we need to wait and see. This is what really makes me wonder if I want to play this game. Better be fricking awesome!
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Keep us posted on any new developments, since I don't follow this experiment SOE is promoting.. The more I hear, the more dancing I see.. I'm just wondering at this point if the EQN design here is that everyone can be everything (concerning roles), so people aren't waiting for a particular class role to become available.. This way David is correct in saying "there are roles" IF you wish to play it like that.. and NO trinity because everyone is self reliant.. We all saw where that leads in GW2.. I think once we see actual combat in video , and a list of various SKILLS and SPELLS available, we'll get a better picture..
Saw it in WoW too: challenge modes -- a healer is a loss of DPS, no invites.
There's a reason why Battlefield didn't give Assault both the medic and ammo kits (why even have any other class, forget roles?). ^-^
Not quite. You can earn almost all the classes on one char. They are not sure if they will add restrictions like a good race being a necro. Or if by your actions in game will hinder you from earning x,y,z class. If I play this game, like I did in rift, I will work on having 1 of each of the roles on 1 char. I like options.
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Thing is I have yet to see awesome AI in any MMO. Even ESO who said they had it, well...
The entire game is in the conceptual stage so yeah it is going to make a huge difference how things actually shake out. I mean combat in ESO is just boring, if they can't come up with smarter AI than that the game is doomed from the start.
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Even the trinity can look like a zerg fest if there are a lot of characters on a map. It can also look like a stand still if healing can mitigate damage well enough as well, which imo is worse than a zerg fest but a stand off frozen in time.
So what makes something like the trinity appealing, and how can something non-trinity fit the bill. Trinity is about class roles. The idea of class roles is important becuase something such as instances force atleast one healer, and one tank... I say at least becuase it is dependent on their gear for end game, and if their gear allows them, they could all be healers with enough dps to finish... but in raids in swtor with an enrage for the boss, it then becomes a race of dps and also pigeon holes ppl to play the raid build.
So, hypotheically, small groups with or without trinity should fill in different group roles to complete boss fights. If there was no enrage timer for example, then it matters less about specific roles such as a tank/dps.
So if there is an enrage timer in a boss fight, with a small group fighting... does it matter if they are trinity or not, when the group has to fill different roles to take down the boss?
Then the question would be, what are those different roles? Damage mitigation or support roles can be seen as healing etc, so while it may not having something as specific as a healing class... it can have roles or classes which are very similar in creating that trinity dynamic... but at the same time avoid things in themepark mmos with trinities and making healers overly useful so ppl play healers. If healers simply just canceled out damage of the highest dps rotation, then ppl would not play healers. Trinity systems wants ppl to play healers and tanks and so they make them more useful.
If you want better class balance, then it begins by removing the trinity system.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
The entire game is in the conceptual stage so yeah it is going to make a huge difference how things actually shake out. I mean combat in ESO is just boring, if they can't come up with smarter AI than that the game is doomed from the start.
They could also be doing Wushu rock paper scissors combat, where every move and a counter and weakness. This also would be a mistake. ESO AI is well... predictable and does not feel like anything new. I have not played EVE but someone said they are the only MMO that has made it huge without a trinity but I cant judge that as its not my type of game,
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Thing is I have yet to see awesome AI in any MMO. Even ESO who said they had it, well...
Thus, they have peeked my interest. The solution that dissenters on here are saying is akin to saying stop trying to develop intersteller flight because it hasn't been done before.
At some point, it has to be done, and if you keep making the same game, same combat, we'll never develop smarter AI.
We know for a fact that smart AI exists, specifically in role playing games. Look at Dark Souls. The question is can you create algorythms that can mimic human behavior.
Also, can you make healing important without making it neccessary. In Tabletop dnd (say waht you wish its the father of mmos, so to say you don't want it in your game is impossible), particlulary Pathfinder, Healing rarely happens in combat. It's nice to have a healer in combat, in case someone needs a quick burst of healing or a pick me up, but the bulk of healing occurs outside of combat. In combat, a good much of healing occurs with potions and wands of cure light wounds. Combat is designed so that your max HP doesnt regenerate quickly. Your max HP should be all you need to defeat a foe. This HP< without autoregeneration, has been withered down as you progressed in the dungeon. Healers are important ot heal you up before big battles, use status effects, and remove status effects provided. Healing takes on a different meaning in combat.
What i'm saying is that, for 40 years, role playing games happened without a trinity and people loved them. AT some point, someone is going to be smart enough to replicate this feeling.
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Even the trinity can look like a zerg fest if there are a lot of characters on a map. It can also look like a stand still if healing can mitigate damage well enough as well, which imo is worse than a zerg fest but a stand off frozen in time.
So what makes something like the trinity appealing, and how can something non-trinity fit the bill. Trinity is about class roles. The idea of class roles is important becuase something such as instances force atleast one healer, and one tank... I say at least becuase it is dependent on their gear for end game, and if their gear allows them, they could all be healers with enough dps to finish... but in raids in swtor with an enrage for the boss, it then becomes a race of dps and also pigeon holes ppl to play the raid build.
So, hypotheically, small groups with or without trinity should fill in different group roles to complete boss fights. If there was no enrage timer for example, then it matters less about specific roles such as a tank/dps.
So if there is an enrage timer in a boss fight, with a small group fighting... does it matter if they are trinity or not, when the group has to fill different roles to take down the boss?
Then the question would be, what are those different roles? Damage mitigation or support roles can be seen as healing etc, so while it may not having something as specific as a healing class... it can have roles or classes which are very similar in creating that trinity dynamic... but at the same time avoid things in themepark mmos with trinities and making healers overly useful so ppl play healers. If healers simply just canceled out damage of the highest dps rotation, then ppl would not play healers. Trinity systems wants ppl to play healers and tanks and so they make them more useful.
If you want better class balance, then it begins by removing the trinity system.
Yes there has been bad games that made the trinity not much better then GW2 game play. Here is the point and its just this simple. Pile all the MMOs that had done well, WoW, Rift, SWToR, DAoC, EVE. The games that you can point too and say they have hundreds of thousands of players who play this game. How many have got there without the trinity? How many games have come up with a winning design that does not have the trinity? I only know one, EVE. Does SoE have something? The new games over the past few years who have tried to remove the trinity did not do a good job of it. Is it possible? Yes, EVE did it. But what is SoE building EQN to be? What system do they have to beat the trinity system. Thats what I want to really know. If its AI, then no one has pulled that off in MMOs. Love SoE, not sure on this myself.
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Thing is I have yet to see awesome AI in any MMO. Even ESO who said they had it, well...
Thus, they have peeked my interest. The solution that dissenters on here are saying is akin to saying stop trying to develop intersteller flight because it hasn't been done before.
At some point, it has to be done, and if you keep making the same game, same combat, we'll never develop smarter AI.
We know for a fact that smart AI exists, specifically in role playing games. Look at Dark Souls. The question is can you create algorythms that can mimic human behavior.
Also, can you make healing important without making it neccessary. In Tabletop dnd (say waht you wish its the father of mmos, so to say you don't want it in your game is impossible), particlulary Pathfinder, Healing rarely happens in combat. It's nice to have a healer in combat, in case someone needs a quick burst of healing or a pick me up, but the bulk of healing occurs outside of combat. In combat, a good much of healing occurs with potions and wands of cure light wounds. Combat is designed so that your max HP doesnt regenerate quickly. Your max HP should be all you need to defeat a foe. This HP< without autoregeneration, has been withered down as you progressed in the dungeon. Healers are important ot heal you up before big battles, use status effects, and remove status effects provided. Healing takes on a different meaning in combat.
What i'm saying is that, for 40 years, role playing games happened without a trinity and people loved them. AT some point, someone is going to be smart enough to replicate this feeling.
SoE is acting like that have something new never been done before, I hope they do. I just think its unlikely as I have heard this promised to many times. But I will check it out and hope they are right =-)
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Thing is I have yet to see awesome AI in any MMO. Even ESO who said they had it, well...
Thus, they have peeked my interest. The solution that dissenters on here are saying is akin to saying stop trying to develop intersteller flight because it hasn't been done before.
At some point, it has to be done, and if you keep making the same game, same combat, we'll never develop smarter AI.
We know for a fact that smart AI exists, specifically in role playing games. Look at Dark Souls. The question is can you create algorythms that can mimic human behavior.
Also, can you make healing important without making it neccessary. In Tabletop dnd (say waht you wish its the father of mmos, so to say you don't want it in your game is impossible), particlulary Pathfinder, Healing rarely happens in combat. It's nice to have a healer in combat, in case someone needs a quick burst of healing or a pick me up, but the bulk of healing occurs outside of combat. In combat, a good much of healing occurs with potions and wands of cure light wounds. Combat is designed so that your max HP doesnt regenerate quickly. Your max HP should be all you need to defeat a foe. This HP< without autoregeneration, has been withered down as you progressed in the dungeon. Healers are important ot heal you up before big battles, use status effects, and remove status effects provided. Healing takes on a different meaning in combat.
What i'm saying is that, for 40 years, role playing games happened without a trinity and people loved them. AT some point, someone is going to be smart enough to replicate this feeling.
SoE is acting like that have something new never been done before, I hope they do. I just think its unlikely as I have heard this promised to many times. But I will check it out and hope they are right =-)
Hey buddy we're both brides left at the alter. Every game i look at has some major flaw that prevents me from wanting to get engrossed. I would accept 10 years of an mmo with a great AI even if that AI eventually led to skynet.
Pile all the MMOs that had done well, WoW, Rift, SWToR, DAoC, EVE. The games that you can point too and say they have hundreds of thousands of players who play this game. How many have got there without the trinity? How many games have come up with a winning design that does not have the trinity?
That is an odd list since Rift and SWToR more or less failed and went F2P and DAoC PvE is awful. GW2 is more successful than almost all of those games were. UO didn't have a trinity and that game thrived. EQ actually didn't have the trinity either. There were pullers, CC, Debuffers, DPS, Healers, Tanks and off Tanks, all were very important.
The trinity really describes WoW and games like it where one tank could stick a mob to him forever and be healed by one healer and the rest can just be asleep doing DPS. That is an awful design for a game.
Pile all the MMOs that had done well, WoW, Rift, SWToR, DAoC, EVE. The games that you can point too and say they have hundreds of thousands of players who play this game. How many have got there without the trinity? How many games have come up with a winning design that does not have the trinity?
That is an odd list since Rift and SWToR more or less failed and went F2P and DAoC PvE is awful. GW2 is more successful than almost all of those games were. UO didn't have a trinity and that game thrived. EQ actually didn't have the trinity either. There were pullers, CC, Debuffers, DPS, Healers, Tanks and off Tanks, all were very important.
The trinity really describes WoW and games like it where one tank could stick a mob to him forever and be healed by one healer and the rest can just be asleep doing DPS. That is an awful design for a game.
I miss that design that had 6 or 7 different roles. By the example u quoted, we'd never have a game that wasna't pong, because hey before that what game was successful without having two paddles and a dot. AT some point you need to attempt an innovation, even if you fail it.
I remembe thinking when i played GW2 for the first time that this was only the first start. This was the original GTA. Wait until the third one comes around.
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually."I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Even the trinity can look like a zerg fest if there are a lot of characters on a map. It can also look like a stand still if healing can mitigate damage well enough as well, which imo is worse than a zerg fest but a stand off frozen in time.
Naw, it' fun making DPS cry in their cups when arena matches lasted 45mins (bet some folks were throwing keyboards that they couldn't faceroll).
Now? They whine if it lasts 2 minutes, and they sure aren't Muhammad Ali!
How many have got there without the trinity? How many games have come up with a winning design that does not have the trinity?
How many games have the same trinity system? All games are not created equal.
EQ, DAoC, GW1, UO and various other pre-WoW games did not have the same watered down mechanics that appealed to the masses. If WoW had something resembling EQ's more complex "trinity" or DAoC's roles in RVR, I highly doubt it would of been as successful. I didn't play EQ to stare at threat meters or DAoC to spam 123 while standing in place.
Simply leveling in EQ/DAoC was a chore. Evercamp? Players had to work together from an early stage not only after maxing out by soloing and trying to raid aka WoW. Imagine players having to feign death pull in the Barrens...lol
Not that I want a game that forces reliance on everyone, but there was a huge shift in player to player reliance when WoW came around.
What about SWG? It was fairly popular and wasn't too entrenched in the trinity system? To this day it is the "best" "sandbox" or mmo for many.
The trinity is the answer to poor AI and game design. Just because devs haven't done it well before, doesn't mean it isn't possible.
It could be hype, but most of their AI comments come across fairly literal without a lot of room for interpretation. I think a big issue is that people only have bits and pieces of the conversation. Between the reveal at SOE Live, twitter, forum responses, video interviews, articles, etc, a lot of info is out there.
Even within this thread, it is obvious who is or isn't fully informed based on certain comments. People are too busy arguing about buzzwords. How can we discuss "trinity" "sandbox" and other ideas when we can't even agree what they are.
Is the trinity roles that players take on or is it threat meters, taunt spam, standing in place hitting 123, HP bar babysitting, etc? For me it is the former and so far the "trinity" seems a live and well in EQN. For me it is more of a concept and not a literal no deviation system. Defense, Offense, Support, CC, whatever. There is a lot of room to work with. Not just Tank-Healer-DPS-maybe CC, etc.
When SOE talks about the trinity and getting away from what it has become, they specifically point out elements that have become of the genre post-WoW. Roles and player interdependence will still be in EQN, just not watered down combat mini-games that take away the thrill and fun.
At this point, I have no worries. I'll take them on their word until given a reason not to. AI will make or break the game for many and for SOE's sake, I hope they aren't bending the truth and the AI is as amazing as they say.
Trinity needs to go away, something else new, fresh and innovative needs to come along; The "Rubber Stamping" methodlogy of anything in the arts is never good IMO
When SOE talks about the trinity and getting away from what it has become, they specifically point out elements that have become of the genre post-WoW. Roles and player interdependence will still be in EQN, just not watered down combat mini-games that take away the thrill and fun.
So we can have more of this instead as fun?
The Holy Trinity - Tank/Heals/DPS - isn't the problem, it's players who are too busy doing anything else BUT play their role AND class well. Then they rage for months to years claiming healing makes their role too hard. -_-
When SOE talks about the trinity and getting away from what it has become, they specifically point out elements that have become of the genre post-WoW. Roles and player interdependence will still be in EQN, just not watered down combat mini-games that take away the thrill and fun.
So we can have more of this instead as fun?
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Naw, it' fun making DPS cry in their cups when arena matches lasted 45mins (bet some folks were throwing keyboards that they couldn't faceroll).
Since you outright admitted that kind of thing was fun, I'm not quite sure how to interpret your question.
When SOE talks about the trinity and getting away from what it has become, they specifically point out elements that have become of the genre post-WoW. Roles and player interdependence will still be in EQN, just not watered down combat mini-games that take away the thrill and fun.
So we can have more of this instead as fun?
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Naw, it' fun making DPS cry in their cups when arena matches lasted 45mins (bet some folks were throwing keyboards that they couldn't faceroll).
Since you outright admitted that kind of thing was fun, I'm not quite sure how to interpret your question.
It's fun when roles are evenly matched.
Not when nerfs are applied when DPS gets so lazy they only want 1 button to win. Arenas used to last 45mins. Then 30mins. Now huge healing debuffs kick in @ 10mins (on top of player healing debuffs). Maybe next expansion arenas will be reduced to 5mins max, and debuffs start at 2mins (since they already whine if a match lasts that long). -_-
That's what not having roles have brought to gaming, making choices fewer and fewer, let alone any skills.
Originally posted by Matticus75 Trinity needs to go away, something else new, fresh and innovative needs to come along; The "Rubber Stamping" methodlogy of anything in the arts is never good IMO
Trinity does not need to go away, a lot of players like that format. Instead, say that as well as the Trinity system it would be good to have others as well. Don't just remove one format for another which in the end may not be to everyone's liking.
Have games with different formats, trinity and non-trinity, then let players decide which one they want to play.
Comments
I have to admit that after GW2 I thought I would never play another MMO without the trinity. I tweeted David Georgeson about it and he said "If you're not fond of GW2's combat, that's okay. It's not what we're building. You'll see, eventually." I have no clue how they can have no trinity and not have it be a zerg fest. This is SoE so I will give them a measure of trust. I will wait to see if they can do this without the trinity,
Link to his reply... HERE!
Keep us posted on any new developments, since I don't follow this experiment SOE is promoting.. The more I hear, the more dancing I see.. I'm just wondering at this point if the EQN design here is that everyone can be everything (concerning roles), so people aren't waiting for a particular class role to become available.. This way David is correct in saying "there are roles" IF you wish to play it like that.. and NO trinity because everyone is self reliant.. We all saw where that leads in GW2.. I think once we see actual combat in video , and a list of various SKILLS and SPELLS available, we'll get a better picture..
Saw it in WoW too: challenge modes -- a healer is a loss of DPS, no invites.
There's a reason why Battlefield didn't give Assault both the medic and ammo kits (why even have any other class, forget roles?). ^-^
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Everyone can be everything because when you make a char you can play almost every class with that char. You collect classes like cards. Doing some quest helping some tribe they teach you what it means to be a Shaman. Now you can level your Shaman skill line. Not sure if you can cross class skills but thats part of it. So you team, who wants to tank? Between everyone you should have what you need to make a working team.
There is no taunt but there is defensive skills. So you can play the tank role but not like in a classic trinity way. The details on how healing, dps and tanking in this game works is where David said we need to wait and see. This is what really makes me wonder if I want to play this game. Better be fricking awesome!
Not quite. You can earn almost all the classes on one char. They are not sure if they will add restrictions like a good race being a necro. Or if by your actions in game will hinder you from earning x,y,z class. If I play this game, like I did in rift, I will work on having 1 of each of the roles on 1 char. I like options.
Well everquest, now you've peeked my interest. As previously mentioned, the trinity is lazy design. I was reading an ESO thread and someone summed it up nice when they said that in trinity combat you are just queing up a line of buttons for agro and such.
I want to fight smart creatures. I want sophisticated AI. Roles in battle are great, but let me figure out the role i need to play at that point.
I want the equivalent of a Dungeon Master AI. As a DM, if the creature is perceptive and smart, he'll take out healers and damagers first. I want an AI who doesnt pull away from this.
I love GW, but a good many, almost too many, of their bosses simply don't have smart AI. There are tricks to beating them. I want to have strategies and tactics to beat bosses, not a trick such as stacking in one area.
Thing is I have yet to see awesome AI in any MMO. Even ESO who said they had it, well...
The entire game is in the conceptual stage so yeah it is going to make a huge difference how things actually shake out. I mean combat in ESO is just boring, if they can't come up with smarter AI than that the game is doomed from the start.
Even the trinity can look like a zerg fest if there are a lot of characters on a map. It can also look like a stand still if healing can mitigate damage well enough as well, which imo is worse than a zerg fest but a stand off frozen in time.
So what makes something like the trinity appealing, and how can something non-trinity fit the bill. Trinity is about class roles. The idea of class roles is important becuase something such as instances force atleast one healer, and one tank... I say at least becuase it is dependent on their gear for end game, and if their gear allows them, they could all be healers with enough dps to finish... but in raids in swtor with an enrage for the boss, it then becomes a race of dps and also pigeon holes ppl to play the raid build.
So, hypotheically, small groups with or without trinity should fill in different group roles to complete boss fights. If there was no enrage timer for example, then it matters less about specific roles such as a tank/dps.
So if there is an enrage timer in a boss fight, with a small group fighting... does it matter if they are trinity or not, when the group has to fill different roles to take down the boss?
Then the question would be, what are those different roles? Damage mitigation or support roles can be seen as healing etc, so while it may not having something as specific as a healing class... it can have roles or classes which are very similar in creating that trinity dynamic... but at the same time avoid things in themepark mmos with trinities and making healers overly useful so ppl play healers. If healers simply just canceled out damage of the highest dps rotation, then ppl would not play healers. Trinity systems wants ppl to play healers and tanks and so they make them more useful.
If you want better class balance, then it begins by removing the trinity system.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
They could also be doing Wushu rock paper scissors combat, where every move and a counter and weakness. This also would be a mistake. ESO AI is well... predictable and does not feel like anything new. I have not played EVE but someone said they are the only MMO that has made it huge without a trinity but I cant judge that as its not my type of game,
Thus, they have peeked my interest. The solution that dissenters on here are saying is akin to saying stop trying to develop intersteller flight because it hasn't been done before.
At some point, it has to be done, and if you keep making the same game, same combat, we'll never develop smarter AI.
We know for a fact that smart AI exists, specifically in role playing games. Look at Dark Souls. The question is can you create algorythms that can mimic human behavior.
Also, can you make healing important without making it neccessary. In Tabletop dnd (say waht you wish its the father of mmos, so to say you don't want it in your game is impossible), particlulary Pathfinder, Healing rarely happens in combat. It's nice to have a healer in combat, in case someone needs a quick burst of healing or a pick me up, but the bulk of healing occurs outside of combat. In combat, a good much of healing occurs with potions and wands of cure light wounds. Combat is designed so that your max HP doesnt regenerate quickly. Your max HP should be all you need to defeat a foe. This HP< without autoregeneration, has been withered down as you progressed in the dungeon. Healers are important ot heal you up before big battles, use status effects, and remove status effects provided. Healing takes on a different meaning in combat.
What i'm saying is that, for 40 years, role playing games happened without a trinity and people loved them. AT some point, someone is going to be smart enough to replicate this feeling.
Yes there has been bad games that made the trinity not much better then GW2 game play. Here is the point and its just this simple. Pile all the MMOs that had done well, WoW, Rift, SWToR, DAoC, EVE. The games that you can point too and say they have hundreds of thousands of players who play this game. How many have got there without the trinity? How many games have come up with a winning design that does not have the trinity? I only know one, EVE. Does SoE have something? The new games over the past few years who have tried to remove the trinity did not do a good job of it. Is it possible? Yes, EVE did it. But what is SoE building EQN to be? What system do they have to beat the trinity system. Thats what I want to really know. If its AI, then no one has pulled that off in MMOs. Love SoE, not sure on this myself.
SoE is acting like that have something new never been done before, I hope they do. I just think its unlikely as I have heard this promised to many times. But I will check it out and hope they are right =-)
Hey buddy we're both brides left at the alter. Every game i look at has some major flaw that prevents me from wanting to get engrossed. I would accept 10 years of an mmo with a great AI even if that AI eventually led to skynet.
That is an odd list since Rift and SWToR more or less failed and went F2P and DAoC PvE is awful. GW2 is more successful than almost all of those games were. UO didn't have a trinity and that game thrived. EQ actually didn't have the trinity either. There were pullers, CC, Debuffers, DPS, Healers, Tanks and off Tanks, all were very important.
The trinity really describes WoW and games like it where one tank could stick a mob to him forever and be healed by one healer and the rest can just be asleep doing DPS. That is an awful design for a game.
I miss that design that had 6 or 7 different roles. By the example u quoted, we'd never have a game that wasna't pong, because hey before that what game was successful without having two paddles and a dot. AT some point you need to attempt an innovation, even if you fail it.
I remembe thinking when i played GW2 for the first time that this was only the first start. This was the original GTA. Wait until the third one comes around.
I think you meant the guy I was quoting but yeah that is a good point. Successful games have done X is not a reason why Y won't work.
Naw, it' fun making DPS cry in their cups when arena matches lasted 45mins (bet some folks were throwing keyboards that they couldn't faceroll).
Now? They whine if it lasts 2 minutes, and they sure aren't Muhammad Ali!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
How many games have the same trinity system? All games are not created equal.
EQ, DAoC, GW1, UO and various other pre-WoW games did not have the same watered down mechanics that appealed to the masses. If WoW had something resembling EQ's more complex "trinity" or DAoC's roles in RVR, I highly doubt it would of been as successful. I didn't play EQ to stare at threat meters or DAoC to spam 123 while standing in place.
Simply leveling in EQ/DAoC was a chore. Evercamp? Players had to work together from an early stage not only after maxing out by soloing and trying to raid aka WoW. Imagine players having to feign death pull in the Barrens...lol
Not that I want a game that forces reliance on everyone, but there was a huge shift in player to player reliance when WoW came around.
What about SWG? It was fairly popular and wasn't too entrenched in the trinity system? To this day it is the "best" "sandbox" or mmo for many.
The trinity is the answer to poor AI and game design. Just because devs haven't done it well before, doesn't mean it isn't possible.
It could be hype, but most of their AI comments come across fairly literal without a lot of room for interpretation. I think a big issue is that people only have bits and pieces of the conversation. Between the reveal at SOE Live, twitter, forum responses, video interviews, articles, etc, a lot of info is out there.
Even within this thread, it is obvious who is or isn't fully informed based on certain comments. People are too busy arguing about buzzwords. How can we discuss "trinity" "sandbox" and other ideas when we can't even agree what they are.
Is the trinity roles that players take on or is it threat meters, taunt spam, standing in place hitting 123, HP bar babysitting, etc? For me it is the former and so far the "trinity" seems a live and well in EQN. For me it is more of a concept and not a literal no deviation system. Defense, Offense, Support, CC, whatever. There is a lot of room to work with. Not just Tank-Healer-DPS-maybe CC, etc.
When SOE talks about the trinity and getting away from what it has become, they specifically point out elements that have become of the genre post-WoW. Roles and player interdependence will still be in EQN, just not watered down combat mini-games that take away the thrill and fun.
At this point, I have no worries. I'll take them on their word until given a reason not to. AI will make or break the game for many and for SOE's sake, I hope they aren't bending the truth and the AI is as amazing as they say.
So we can have more of this instead as fun?
The Holy Trinity - Tank/Heals/DPS - isn't the problem, it's players who are too busy doing anything else BUT play their role AND class well. Then they rage for months to years claiming healing makes their role too hard. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
It's fun when roles are evenly matched.
Not when nerfs are applied when DPS gets so lazy they only want 1 button to win. Arenas used to last 45mins. Then 30mins. Now huge healing debuffs kick in @ 10mins (on top of player healing debuffs). Maybe next expansion arenas will be reduced to 5mins max, and debuffs start at 2mins (since they already whine if a match lasts that long). -_-
That's what not having roles have brought to gaming, making choices fewer and fewer, let alone any skills.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Trinity does not need to go away, a lot of players like that format. Instead, say that as well as the Trinity system it would be good to have others as well. Don't just remove one format for another which in the end may not be to everyone's liking.
Have games with different formats, trinity and non-trinity, then let players decide which one they want to play.