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Originally posted by gigat Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by gigat I didn't pledge a lot, but certainly enough to regret it if things turn out poorly. I'm a bit concerned about this. It reminds me of Appleton's idea with Greed Monger. If I had known Lord Brittish was going to do this, I wouldn't have pledged. I know they're a business, and they are trying to make money and pay the bills and all that. But it still seems shady in a "bait and switch" type of way. Prior to this announcement, I was giddy with excitement for this game. Now I'm wavering between excitement and regret, and the regret is getting heavy.
Did you pledge enough to get a house? If yes, then how do you feel "bait and switch" applies to you? If no, not quite sure I would understand either, because again at no point did they present something, and then change or take it away.
No I didn't pledge enough for a house.
First, just let me clarify that I'm not saying it is a bait and switch. It just feels like it, because of the way things played out.
Since there wasn't much information available when I pledged, there's no way I could have known how the housing would work. I only knew that at some point in the future, there may or may not be housing available to players. I couldn't have known how much it would cost, or that it would cost anything...
Also I thought this game would have multiple modes (single-player, coop, MMO). Is that still a part of the game? Are the housing plots unavailable in single-player/coop modes unless you fork over the cash?
EDIT: Here we go. I read this from their official website before I pledged, and before the housing plot announcement:
"Players can specialize in a wide range of combat and non-combat skills, provided by a robust, classless skill system, and full-featured crafting and housing mechanics." - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?page_id=28012
If they had added "Housing plots are limited and cost an additional fee of $X.XX" then I wouldn't have pledged. Instead, all I knew was that the game would have housing at some point, not that it would be limited and cost additional money. Not sure if that's bait and switch, but it's shitty enough to regret pledging money.
All I can do here is refer you to Dallas' statement on the matter:
"We sincerely apologize for the confusion created by the "tax free" statement in the Player Housing section of our Kickstarter page. It was not our intention to imply that the tax free property deeds were going to be exclusive to Kickstarter backers only, although we certainly understand how the wording of that statement would create that impression. During the Kickstarter campaign we endeavored to clearly specify if a reward was going to be reserved exclusively for Kickstarter-only backers (sometimes referred to as "founders", or "early backers"). We readily admit that things were moving fast during the campaign and some things were not presented as clearly as they could have been. To clarify, once the game is publicly launched, players that did not pledge for any of the housing tiers will have to pay regular taxes and commissions on basic property deeds and vendors. And to answer some of your posted concerns, the number of property deeds is limited, and can only be increased when we expand the size of the map.
@last post about kickstarter promises:
It sounds as though Richard Garriott gets the last laugh.
Wait until the final game you make in your lifetime before you start burning bridges .. then light them ablaze! Well this game wasn't about getting huge numbers of players, as is apparent :P
Rather is was a seemingly successful cash grab. I mean $500 per house isn't very attractive to new players, but donators get to play amongst themselves .. apparently ..in virtual houses ..
with themselves, and nobody else .. sounds fun.
Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcpRecognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.
Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by GungaDin Originally posted by Neo_Viper Originally posted by GungaDin A house / plot of land is not needed to play the game. Its just extra fluff.
Strongly disagreed. In a theme park game maybe, but not in a sandbox game.
To me, housing in a sandbox is an essential part of the game.
I played UO without a home for over 1.5 yrs. It was not "essential" to gameplay. Plus, as in UO, you can be friended to homes or have access to guild establishments.
Housing does not = sandbox.
Sandbox is considered an open free roaming world. Player housing is not part of the criterium.
Correction: It wasn't essential to you.
Sorry, but I'm also of the opinion that home ownership is a near-essential part of games like this.
I wouldn't mind so much about land being sold for real cash if it were just certain high-demand areas such as waterfronts, big city suburbs, etc. However with land being a finite resource and every single parcel available for RL cash, they're essentially locking people out of a chunk of content from the get-go because they're not wealthy enough IRL to pay for it. To me, this is absolutely inexcusable. I didn't contribute to this game for some pay-to-win cash grab, I contributed because I wanted a worthy successor to the Ultima series.
If this decision isn't reversed, then I will be contacting the appropriate parties to have my contribution refunded. This isn't what I signed up for, and sure as hell isn't the kind of garbage I want to support.
Correction, NO, it is NOT essential to playing the game.
You can hold anything and everything in your bank. In fact, it's far riskier to place things in homes, as they had limited placement and lock down slots depending on the style and type of home that you had. If you didn't come back to your home after a while, it would decay to a point where your walls would fall and everything inside was ripe for the taking. Plus, you had to pay 'rent', so to speak.. Also, if you had a NPC vendor, you had to pay them or they would drop your shit.
So no, it wasn't essential. It didn't even really help you do anything. All it did was gave you a space that you could potentially create a shop and show off your house designs to your friends. It didn't make you better in combat. It didn't give you extra experience. It didn't increase your stats. It didn't allow you to carry more loot or store more loot. It was not essential. At least not in an open world virtual simulator like Ultima Online. Which I played, and I can tell that you didn't. You are using theory in what you THINK you know, but do not.
Now, if Shroud of the Avatar is telling players, pay before it launches or you have no chance to own a home, then that sucks. If owning that home equals some great advantage over someone else, then that also sucks. It shouldn't be done that way, because any true sandbox is built by the players, not the developers. Clearly SotA is not a sandbox.
Originally posted by DAS1337 Originally posted by Swedish_Chef Originally posted by GungaDin Originally posted by Neo_Viper Originally posted by GungaDin A house / plot of land is not needed to play the game. Its just extra fluff.
Agree with most of what you are saying, however I'd like to put the term sandbox in perspective. I would like to define a sandbox game as a game which allows great flexibility in allowing the player to interact with the game world and do whatever they want. That is how it is generally used.
So what you are saying, is that since there is a chance a casual player who logs in once a week for an hour to play SotA can't earn/upkeep a house, it isn't sandbox? Because if it was sandbox, that very casual player should be able to like chop down trees and build a house after one hour a week game time?
Not totally sure if that would fit in with the general definition of a sandbox game. See this video where they discuss both Housing and Sandbox:
I have read all pages of posts since I began the thread.
My concern is on several levels with this game.
I have been interested in a UO2 since they first started working on a botched version long long ago and scrapped it.
I have been following Richard (Lord Brittish) for a long time on facebook and actually had a short back and fourth with him about how gaming has changed and how great a new UO could be with his style and sense of game direction in place.
Then I started seeing Portalarium and some basic functionality he was talking about in reguard to a future game similar to the ultima and UO style. He talked about how collecting of objects was a passion of his and how everyone kind of enjoys collecting and becoming educated in certain things they find a passion for. This would be a big part of his new game that he was still working on a title for.
Flash forward to today.
We now have a very hybrid game which at the current time looks like a cross between final fantasy 3 overland map, and some instanced areas. Obviously this game is still very much in the process of getting made. Thing is though....they don't have a big team, they don't have a big backer, they don't have a publisher. Basically they are going the indi-game route. How many indi-games do you know of that are worth hundreds of dollars pre-release?
I am just baffled by how people shove hard earned money over for things that
#1 they do not actually own. (it's virtual property that belongs to Portarium
#2 It has only been shown in a demo form. (It may not actually ever get to a finished form you can download)
#3 The millions of $$ have no real accounting for.
If I told you that I was planning to build a small add-on to your house for $5000 but I need all the money up front, and there was no hand shake. There was no contract. Would you still give me the $5000 up front because I remodeled a bathroom or two several years ago? That is what many people are doing here.
Maybe I have been burned by this process in the past with another indi game developer. I still just find it annoying that a guy I had thought was above this sort of thing is deep into it. I get his reasons,but how they went about it was wrong in my opinion.
There will be a ton of things to collect. There will probably be weight and encumbrance in this game. There will be limited space in banks. There will be a clear need to have a house. People that do not have housing will actually struggle more. I do not agree at all with the no tax rule on housing for pre-payers at the house purchase level. This to me is just bad game mechanics.
Will the game be fun? I still hope so.
Will it be enough to keep me interested until the first expansion when housing will become available again? Maybe not.
I have been waiting for uo:r2 second coming for all my life I played uo:r for 7 years and I know for sure this game won't be it. When I first saw the livestream from lb I went from wanting to kiss him to wanting to hurt him really badly.
Sota Sounds horrible in every way and won't be anything like uo ever was. Even when the interviewer asked him some questions that he probably expected from the game lb looked down while answering he was clearly embarrassed of the game as well. But investors made him do the game we gonna get now.
ArcheAge, Black Desert and Bless videos InporylemQQ Youtube
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane $1000 .. a tapestry of .. erm would box covers be a violation of the sale to EA? ... if so well, scrap that idea, since EA has the rights Now if the $45 came with something ... you see all the older Ultima games came with "something" .. necklace pieces (Ankh's), cloth maps, symbols of the Triad, Tarot cards as they relate to Virtues, Moonstones ... $45 for digital bits is meaningless to the fans who know the Ultima franchise. Did Garriott forget the era he grew up in?
You are still talking aboutz the extras. Not the core game. Those are optional. You are mad that the optionals are too expensive, and you wont play the core game for a very very reasonable price.
You lose. The rest of us win, we don't serve your kind.
But that is just it. The extras are overpriced, well beyond reason. $45 for a core game I will grant you is a reasonable price--hell, a great price, but another way to look at is, the complete game is VERY expensive, but for $45 you can play this part of it, minus all this other cool stuff, which, by the way, many other games include for their $50-100 price tag, or as DLC/extras at much more reasonable prices than this game does.
Obviously, neither of us are going to have much influence on the other's thoughts, and in spite of the price you will see me poking around and checking in on the game. I am not writing it off, but am disappointed at the price point to buy into the "extras" which to me are the coolest parts of this game, just not at those prices.
Also, this talk about how you get more than one game for this price is putting the cart WAY before the horse. This whole thing could go tits up and you will get literally nothing for your pledge. That is the risk of crowd sourcing anything.
That $2 mill will alone will almost certainly not be enough to get this thing off the ground, but who knows how much other money is in there from other sources, but there is no guarantee one game will ever see daylight, let alone the follow on games. Also, you might see the first game, and never the others. This first one will have to be successful to see follow up games.
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane @UO:2 wannabes. There will never be a UO:2, and even if there is, EA would bastardize it straight into a cookie cutter game just like STO or NWO, WoW, or what have you. You don't get it, the glory days you all so wish for are all over with save for a UO Freeshard. Go play on it and stfu. The paper doll, The crafting mechanics, the artistic direction. This IS basically UO2. It's UO mixed with Ultima X Oddysey @Nubs who say the optional extras in SotA are too expensive, that is of course your opinion. If you can't get your moms to give you $500 then go do some basket ball diaries in the bathrooms. You all act like you would totally do that for a house in a game which you are all taking a huge dump on. Straighten up. $500 all at once for access to game pixels for 1 game that is not a success yet is not ok. Most normal people get this. Subscriptions are the way to go in this regard. If the game is worth $500 then take it piece by piece from players over the course of a few years and any time they think the game doesn't have enough to offer or has fallen short, then the gamer pulls funding and can go elsewhere for gaming value. This is true in all other industry where a service is given for a monthly fee. Competition weeds out the bad so that the good remains. @Garriott haters, you guys are the ones who make me sick. If Garriott was making a cash grab, he would have done it to a much better result. This was and is a genuine push to have a new Ultima crowd sourced. Who said the game was only using 2M strictly from the pledging? FFS wake up, more money is being pumped into the game than that from all areas. That includes Garriott, who you now pretty much think has only done this for your puny $500 dollars. Not all are haters here. Just concerned at the direction things are taking. If Garriott was making a cash grab, he would have made a key component of the game for many many people the focus of several game videos. He also would have made it cost alot more to get in his "game development fund". He then would put another carrot in the package by making it not cost any upkeep fee. Oh wait.....he did all that and more!!!!!!!!!! It was a successful cash grab with zero oversight or accountability. Time will tell if there is a successful game or 5 of them at the end of your high $$$$ pledge backed rainbow. You are all a bunch of narcissistic pantie wastes. Go play WoW where the rest of them are.
This post seems to be about name calling a bit. I respect my fellow gamers and hope they respect themselves and they're wallets enough to not throw hard earned money away for something that may let them down in the end. The higher tier funding for nice houses in protected city areas are serious $$ that could be spent on actually improving your real life in some way. All green post is mine
It's been 4 months since this subject was discussed.
Portalarium still has not addressed the concerns on this issue. The land barons chase dissenters out of the forums, will troll in order to get forums closed so that those raising valid alternative ideas are shut down or banned. They do not want open discussion. They have been treated like upper class people who have invested in the game, rather than given a donation for game development. It will be up to the IRS to zone in on these people who want to buy up and sell virtual real estate. Many have bought multiple plots to charge rent, or drive prices up so high that players will not be able to afford a house unless paying cash outside the game.
When you hear, "There will be plenty of land!" that is utter nonsense. The game doesn't have the budget for landmass that large.
It's an imbalanced housing system, from the little we do know of it, with no definite plans to make it any different. Promises from Richard Garriott are that if instanced housing is needed, they may implement it, but not at the expense of those who have backed the game and bought housing for real dollars. He won't allow their houses to devalue.
The game is not released yet, so changes could potentially happen. Basically, high level backers do not want anyone else the ability to own an instanced house, only their own persistent houses should be allowed. They want high returns on their (investment) donation.
Each city will allow only 50-150 plots. No one knows how many cities there will be at this point. But even if there were 100 cities, it would only allow 15,000 persistent plots total for the entire world. That's a high estimate. They created a class system before the game is even released. There is ample complaints in the forums.
This forum was closed due to too much debate.
There is still housing available in the Kickstarter store. But why? If people were so gungho for this game, you would think it would be bought by now. They assure users there will be lots more housing plots available when the game releases, even if the store sells out. But with the figures quoted above, you can see where that will lead. Extreme housing shortage.
Richard Garriott's own words are that housing will be rare, limited and persistent.
Will people need a house? We don't know. They haven't released information on how large bank space will be. But what they have stated, in the add-on store, is that owning a house will dramatically increase your storage space.
Why would a person need much storage? Only for trinkets? Think again. They have developed an extensive crafting system where a lot of tools and molds and goods are needed, in order to make game gold. These alone will require a lot of storage space. Not to mention having to haul it all to the "public crafting area" in the center of town.
Most (98%) of backers will be homeless. They will have public vendors in a public square, and have to use public crafting stations.
The class system is created before the game is even released. There are fights in the forums over these issues. Moderators openly side with the land barons and chase out the people who have reasonable and logical arguments.
You cannot get a refund if you backed. I'm only glad I backed at one of the lower levels and won't invest a penny more in what's sure to be an old school, outdated and lame concept game.
I played UO for many, many years. I was devoted to that game. But this game is a joke.
Originally posted by Steeleet If people were so gungho for this game, you would think it would be bought by now.
I am still introducing people, both old Ultima players and new non-Ultima players, to SotA whom have yet to hear about it from both categories. That is why there is still housing, until fundraising is closed new players get a chance to both help support the game and benefit from that support by getting something that is not required but nice to have in some people's opinion and or play style.
Originally posted by Karblehttp://www.polygon.com/2013/9/13/4724762/lord-british-and-the-oklahoma-land-rush this is the link the the article most recently from the creators of Shroud of the Avatar.It is one thing to try and sway the avid fanbase of the various avatar games over the years into purchasing virtual (see pixy dust) space to place a house in a semi-protected area of an online community that has not happened yet. It's another to try and now tell new people that are interested that "hey....better pay now or you will not have a home since they are limited" which only adds to this pixy dust house of cards. I am not saying that the game itself will be good or bad. Just that there are alot of people in real life spending LITERALLY THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to have a house (pixy dust) in a virtual world. Where has common sense gone? Seriously......ugh. I am a fan of UO and played it for several years, but I will be the last to throw my hard earned money into developing any game unless they will be splitting the profit with me. Oh they are not splitting the profit with people that have invested 3K into the game? hmm well at least you get a pixy dust house :P
Originally posted by DeathmachinePT Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by DeathmachinePT Building a present MMO with 2mil is impossible especially when accepting means having costs by delivering some physical goods to those pledgers. Only Star Citizen has some minimal funding required to deliver the game they are pitching they probably would needed around than 100mil to make it but with some good management they might get there. I guess Shroud of the Avatar has Richard Garriot reputation on the line as a game designer if he can't deliver than he is not a real good developer.
How many games have you produced, and what have their budget's been?
Inform yourself about MMO budgets to understand what I'm talking about, hiring programmers and servers programmers are quite expensive this days and there is a lack of them if you make an engine yourself it will take months of development if you buy an engine you have to pay for it or license it then adjust it to your game which can also be time consuming.
Why would I do that? I'm not in the game industry or the finance industry. To inform myself about MMO budgets I'd need to know a decent amount of information on both sectors.
In any case as I am sure you are aware dev will continue past the first episode into the following episodes. This isn't a hire fixed number of devs for fixed time to rush out the door before summer type of project.
Sit back, take a chill pill, and enjoy the end result which I am sure is going to be much more interesting than any MMO your "friends" have ever worked on.
Originally posted by Steeleet There is, for the past 2 days now, a player marketplace already. People have bought up founder accounts and are selling them for a profit. Yes, gold farming is already taking place and the game isn't even out of pre-Alpha. That's the crowd they attracted when they offered housing as an incentive to back the game. It is an investment, just like the pledges are now. It's pretty terrible and makes me especially glad I haven't taken part in any of those scams.
You really should have made a new topic for this. In any case, it is a referral system and not really profit. If anyone does the wrong thing though it needs to be reported. This is the text on the Marketplace Forum over at SotA:
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by Steeleet There is, for the past 2 days now, a player marketplace already. People have bought up founder accounts and are selling them for a profit. Yes, gold farming is already taking place and the game isn't even out of pre-Alpha. That's the crowd they attracted when they offered housing as an incentive to back the game. It is an investment, just like the pledges are now. It's pretty terrible and makes me especially glad I haven't taken part in any of those scams.
I will share some new interest in the game since my last few posts. Obviously alot has happened. First I will admit the game looks like it will indeed launch at some point in the future. It will launch in a more polished fashion than "Mortal Online" did. I also couldn't help but take notice of the armors and weapons that were available in last beta. The striking resemblance they had with UO weapons and armors was impressive to say the least. Now I am wondering a few things. What is the area at the very bottom of the UI that looks like level bars all the way across the bottom of the screen? Have they switched to a level system or are they still set on old UO where you have X amount of points to put into whatever you want till you run out of points and simply switch whenever you wish and the points will de-level to allow another skill to go up?
What is the max gear that can be stored in bank? That will also make or break the need for a house. If I can store enough crafting and extra gear in case I get PKed and full looted I will not be as bent about the housing system as it stands. Also will there be the ability to steal from people within city walls? Like in UO if you were maxed on being a thief you could look into a person's bag and take something at the bank and deposit it in your bank before they even could call "guard" or there was the traditional one thief and 3 vulture tactic and one intended target.
Please feel free to elaborate on any of these topics of the full online part of the game.
Originally posted by Karble alot of people in real life spending LITERALLY THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to have a house (pixy dust) in a virtual world.
I will be searching these people out and offering them company and telling them how awesome of a person they are and how awesome the house they own is on a daily basis, all I ask in return is full access to all amenities and some of those free special harvest items and $19.99 a month.
I plan on making a killing.
Originally posted by Karble Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by Steeleet There is, for the past 2 days now, a player marketplace already. People have bought up founder accounts and are selling them for a profit. Yes, gold farming is already taking place and the game isn't even out of pre-Alpha. That's the crowd they attracted when they offered housing as an incentive to back the game. It is an investment, just like the pledges are now. It's pretty terrible and makes me especially glad I haven't taken part in any of those scams.
I am banned from SotA forum again, thinking about not going back in as IM. But we'll see.
Do you have a SotA forum account? Some of your questions have decent information posted already, some do not, some should be in form of ideas like, I want to be a Crafter, maybe cant own a house so what can your Bazar/Marketplace offer me?
I usually stick to the PvP side of things there so having me read or ask crafting posts is quite rare. I suggest you use SotA forum, plenty of info and people there to help.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Originally posted by Ginaz Hmm, I remember swg having open world housing that didn't cost people extra real money. If a game that began its development almost 15 years ago can let players having housing like that, then why can't this one?
Who said they cant? The bottom line is that they are not going to. So you have to ask: Why?
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by Ginaz Hmm, I remember swg having open world housing that didn't cost people extra real money. If a game that began its development almost 15 years ago can let players having housing like that, then why can't this one?
I think we both know the answer to that question. Why are they charging extra for houses? Because they can.
Originally posted by Braindome Originally posted by Karble alot of people in real life spending LITERALLY THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to have a house (pixy dust) in a virtual world.
From what I can see, all of those tools who own those houses this early on are going to be seeking you out to brag about it lol, you aint gonna have to go lookin'.
Originally posted by Karble http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/13/4724762/lord-british-and-the-oklahoma-land-rush this is the link the the article most recently from the creators of Shroud of the Avatar. It is one thing to try and sway the avid fanbase of the various avatar games over the years into purchasing virtual (see pixy dust) space to place a house in a semi-protected area of an online community that has not happened yet. It's another to try and now tell new people that are interested that "hey....better pay now or you will not have a home since they are limited" which only adds to this pixy dust house of cards.
Hate to burst your small bubble but if you "love" the Ultima games so much, why don't you chose to play this game as one?
Purchase the game, play it in offline single player mode.
Your problem is now solved, it will play just like the Ultima games, storyline, world and all.
The stuff you are posting about is for the online version, which will be B2P and a hybrid of MMORPG and, well I guess the Sims would be a good choice. A game filled with massive amounts of player/dev created content that will be sold via micro-transactions. And when I say Micro- I mean many of these things will be tiny amounts with the massive things like large homes costing more than mounts in other games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by InsaneMembrane Originally posted by Braindome Originally posted by Karble alot of people in real life spending LITERALLY THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to have a house (pixy dust) in a virtual world.
Ultima Online had an island home sell on Ebay for thousands....this was some 15 years ago. I sold my first Asherons Call account for almost $1300 a year after its release. WoW may have changed the genre for the average non-MMORPG player, but hardcore players actually love their games and will pay for it. What SotA is doing is blending MMORPG with offline games like the Sims/Bethesda games/Spore where there are tons of mods and player created content only instead of them being on their own fan sites, they are in the in game shop being sold for money, partly going back to the players that make them.
I don't know, I just re-subbed UO for $13.77 and I can place house easily. Much better deal
Plus the architecture of housing in UO (not customs of some lol) is nicer.