this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

MMOExposed · February 2014

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain.

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players. For a single game world.

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

arieste · February 2014

This is pretty much what happens at level 50. You get to replay pretty much the entire game as scaled up to level 50, so all those solo quests, etc.

So it's really the best of both world - you get to play the game as though it has levels and then you get to play the game as though it doesn't.

DeserttFoxx · February 2014

Levels are a balance gate, so you can control when power is unlocked, otherwise why would you ever get a lesser skill might as well always get the best.

From what i see your player has 50 levels, but everything else also levels to 50, so there is a lot you can do even after you cap out. Which is basically how the every elder scrolls game works.

As for the zone levels..no elder scrolls has this feature, in single player elder scrolls game everything just levels with you.

Damedius · February 2014

It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

arieste · February 2014

Originally posted by Damedius
Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

You do realize that ESO has this technology and already does this (gives every player their own instanced world to play in).

I'm not agreeing that it should all scale to players, just pointing out that the actual technology already exists and is being used in ESO. (As it stands, every played has their own instances world to play in with regards to questing - different players see different things).

Damedius · February 2014

Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Damedius
Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

You do realize that ESO has this technology and already does this (gives every player their own instanced world to play in).

I'm not agreeing that it should all scale to players, just pointing out that the actual technology already exists and is being used in ESO. (As it stands, every played has their own instances world to play in with regards to questing - different players see different things).

True but it wouldn't be an mmo any more. It would be a co-op rpg.

You wouldn't be able to have mobs in the open world. If a level 50 and level 10 were in the same zone. The level 50 mobs that scaled to the level 50 player would kill the level 10 player.

Edit: This might work at launch but the world would extremely desolate for players who started after.

keithian · February 2014

Originally posted by arieste
This is pretty much what happens at level 50. You get to replay pretty much the entire game as scaled up to level 50, so all those solo quests, etc.

So it's really the best of both world - you get to play the game as though it has levels and then you get to play the game as though it doesn't.

What this person said. What I will say for the 1-50 that if it was like Oblivion where everything scaled to you, I would hate it. Certainly not having levels if the NPCs were done correctly would bring a sense of danger, but then you would have people whining that they can't find enough content without grinding NPCsto be able to level and without scaling (which again I hate) leveling would come to a crawl. In Oblivion I pretty much modded the game to be more like the design of ESO. I guess I have nothing against levels as long as the zones feel big and allow for exploration and from what I've been reading beyond the level 10 or so I got, they are more than big enough.

Now for the 50+ and 50++ Ill be curious to see how they scale. Will a mudcrab be level 50 and then be ridiculously hard compared to more dangerous looking NPCs? I sure hope not. Hopefully they will use some common sense as far as what to scale and what to just leave alone.

Unknown · February 2014

CoH/V had a system for giant monsters and dynamic events that let everyone regardless of level contribute similar scaled amounts of damage and take similar scaled amounts of damage. Now obviously higher levels were still better than low levels cuz they had more powers and stacked some things. In other words the they didn't scale the character or the monster rather they dynamically scaled the inputs and outputs of the monster based on the targets level.

But all in all it worked rather well. Sometimes i wonder what an entire MMO like that would be like.

SEANMCAD · February 2014

like I had mentioned in another forum I dont play MMOs with classes anymore and there are plenty of skill based MMOs now.

It is in all ways a better game design AND easier for the developers to.

Classes are a thing of history.

Arskaaa · February 2014

No class choice would been better, like in skyrim. so u can use templar heals with nightblade etc...

baphamet · February 2014

Originally posted by Arskaaa
No class choice would been better, like in skyrim. so u can use templar heals with nightblade etc...

this is the only thing i would consider to be changed. but it would depend how they went about it. it would be hard for them to balance it and it would also be hard to prevent cookie cutter jack of all trade builds where everyone is exactly the same (since everyone has access to every skill line).

so i don't mind that it stays the same way it is now if it prevents that and helps them balance things a little bit.

MMOExposed · February 2014

Originally posted by keithian
Originally posted by arieste
This is pretty much what happens at level 50. You get to replay pretty much the entire game as scaled up to level 50, so all those solo quests, etc.

So it's really the best of both world - you get to play the game as though it has levels and then you get to play the game as though it doesn't.

What this person said. What I will say for the 1-50 that if it was like Oblivion where everything scaled to you, I would hate it. Certainly not having levels if the NPCs were done correctly would bring a sense of danger, but then you would have people whining that they can't find enough content without grinding NPCsto be able to level and without scaling (which again I hate) leveling would come to a crawl. In Oblivion I pretty much modded the game to be more like the design of ESO. I guess I have nothing against levels as long as the zones feel big and allow for exploration and from what I've been reading beyond the level 10 or so I got, they are more than big enough.

Now for the 50+ and 50++ Ill be curious to see how they scale. Will a mudcrab be level 50 and then be ridiculously hard compared to more dangerous looking NPCs? I sure hope not. Hopefully they will use some common sense as far as what to scale and what to just leave alone.

But thats the point. That grind for exp won't be needed to level since the game has no character and zone levels. You only will need to level skills. And thats simply from fighting and using skills. Which will developed naturally..

You cam explore the whole world. Why woukd you rather limit yourself to one large zone for exploration when you can have a WHOLE WORLD to explore from start to end?

Thats ridiculous ! I hope you know that.

I want a world to explore rather than being limited to one or a few zones at a time sinply because i am not the right level

MMOExposed · February 2014

Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by Arskaaa
No class choice would been better, like in skyrim. so u can use templar heals with nightblade etc...

this is the only thing i would consider to be changed. but it would depend how they went about it. it would be hard for them to balance it and it would also be hard to prevent cookie cutter jack of all trade builds where everyone is exactly the same (since everyone has access to every skill line).

so i don't mind that it stays the same way it is now if it prevents that and helps them balance things a little bit.

But thats even harder to balance compared to the idea of the OP.

Also the ideas in the OP open the game up to be played as a fantasy world rather than a fantasy zone like in most themepark SCMORPGs.

You are free to make your own adventure that way.

Gestankfaust · February 2014

The poll speaks for itself

Boreil · February 2014

Its too bad, ALL ES games have had player levels. i would slightly agree on zone levels if we knew anything other than the very small starting area's.

[Deleted User] · February 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

sethman75 · February 2014

Sorry but GW2 and TSW tried that type of progression and it sucks.....BAD!!!!!!!

I hope there are no more games like that ever, it feels like you never accomplish anything and is a painful tedious grind

Notimeforbs · February 2014

Originally posted by Damedius
It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

I have to respectfully disagree with this.

The convention of an RPG does give you vertical scale. This was a carry over design philosophy from D&D and similar games. But that isn't the only way to do it, and I think in an MMO... it's actually a very limiting way of doing it.

In D&D... there's really no worry about one player becoming level 15 and the others being level 7. This simply never happens unless there is a specific reason in the story. Usually, every player remains roughly the same level so that the content can be designed accordingly so that all players can contribute.

This just isn't conducive to an MMO environment, because you're trying to keep all 300k-2 million players or whatever inside of the same box, when everyone is trying to do their own thing. While each person can be on their own level of the content, it prevents them from engaging others on a different level of the content.

In D&D... individuality is marked by rolling the 20 or whatever in that critical moment - not by deciding to separate everything you are doing from the group. I'm in a campaign right now where a player is trying to do that, and it simply doesn't work. The DM has no choice but to cater to the larger group.

But, that's all vertical progression. Horizontal progression is a different story, and I think it is much better suited to the MMO environment.

While say something like Skyrim or Oblivion works in a vertical progression, and manages to do that relatively well by scaling the entire game up to the player's level of progression... MMO's take this same philosophy which inherently creates content gates. This automatically reduces the prospect of engaging other players. If the MMO plays better solo... what's the point of making it an MMO in the first place? Wouldn't it be a stronger game as a single player experience? My point is, the fewer players you have, the stronger a vertical progression system works. The more you have... the more limiting it is.

A horizontal system isn't really limited in that way, though, because it allows all aspects of the game to be played at any time. The final Boss is always going to be as hard as it was when you first started playing. The Legend of Zelda is a great example of the strength of a horizontal progression system. Allow me to elaborate.

At it's core, LoZ is a horizontal progression RPG. There are levels built in, that don't even feel like levels. There is no grinding, really, because your progression doesn't revolve around experience. It revolves around obtaining utility - the raft, the whistle, the blue/red ring, the boomerang, etc. These kinds of items, for the most part, don't necessarily lock you out of content ( I mean, they do... but you know what I mean here.) What they do is assist you in your journey.

LoZ does have some vertical progression in small doses, though. Gaining a heart container is an example of vertical progression. Some of the items have vertical progression: the wood sword, the white sword, the magic sword; the brown boomerang, the blue boomerang; the blue ring, the red ring; the wood arrows, the silver arrows; the shield, and the magic shield; the blue candle, the red candle, the magic wand, and the magic book; etc. These are smaller examples of vertical progression on a foundation of horizontal progression.

The main point about that is, while yes, in a few situations, in LoZ you do need to obtain some amount of progression to continue. One of the castles, you have to have the raft. Another, the whistle. You have to have the bow and the silver arrows. I'm pretty sure you have to have at least the blue candle at some point, and maybe the Magic sword (though I can't remember, it's been so long.) My point is that in the outside world and for many of the bosses in the game... your level of progression doesn't matter. The progression simply affects your ability to deal with the monsters that never change. Whatever content is gated in LoZ is gated to give you the sense of adventure and to make sure you don't go directly to the final boss - because what's the point in that?

Anyway, all of this to say that I think MMO's should look at that with a closer eye. I think it would give players a much better experience as a multiplayer game. For one, you can still hang with the dude who has a boomerang and a hookshot at his disposal. You can still adventure with him. A level 50 really has no business doing anything with a lvl 3. Exploration for the most part would be even more fun here, because whatever is on the other side of that cliff... you know you have a chance of surviving no matter how difficult it might be. It might be a little easier with a boomerang and a hook-shot, simply because of the utility they provide. But you can still do it with your 3 hearts and your wooden sword - its possible. A level 50 monster just isn't going to be killed by someone who is level 10.

So... anyway... I'm not saying vertical progression is bad. It can work in an MMO just as it always has. But I think a stronger element of horizontal progression will provide a much more unifying idea of what MMO can actually achieve. I believe it can take better advantage of the fact that 3 people want to group up with each other and do something cool and fun for a few hours, and then just disappear and do something completely different with 3 other people - which is the main advantage of what I think an MMO should be. It's just another way for removing the box.

EDIT::

II would also like to point out that LoZ doesn't run off of numbers and percentages. You either hit or you miss, for instance. And I forgot to mention this.

Used to, MMO's simply couldn't allow for this sort of thing to happen. But these days... I think the tech is right on the verge of allowing it full throttle. Vertical progression matters a lot when you have to roll a percentage on whether or not you hit your target, and various things like that. But when you can calculate a solid hit or a solid miss without the chance roll, and give it that "action" experience like LoZ typically does... then vertical progression becomes very very unnecessary.

Right now, some games are catching on to this. TESO is a prime example. It pulls off that action feel without the percent chance to hit like is classical in an MMO relatively well. It could be better... but the tech is getting there. And since games like TESO pull it off pretty well, I think that's why we're seeing a lot less character progression in the vertical sense, and more in the horizontal sense. It's also why we're seeing less abilities on the hotbar. It's because these abilities are becoming less the attacks they were originally, and more the utility - like the boomerang or the red ring or something.

TESO isn't completely horizontal progression. And it is still quite gated by levels I would presume. But it is much less so than something like SWTOR or WoW from what I have experienced. And I think it is this way because it has a larger pool of horizontal progression than we are typically used to. The vertical progression is there, sure. But just like in LoZ where the biggest feature of vertical progression there was was obtaining heart containers... in TESO... you're basically picking either Magic, Health, or Stamina as your main level up experience. It isn't until much later into the game when the vertical progression in skills becomes a huge noticeable feature.

Anyway... some food for thought.

MMOExposed · February 2014

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by MMOExposed
this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

How would you go about doing this. Going on your own adventure would require the player to have access in creating content.

I said create your own adventure. as in going into the world, and making your own path to exploring the world, and saving the world. No need for zone rails because the zones arent tied to a level. No need for downscaling like GW2 does since the zones would have no level requirement. Skills for your class can be scattered all over the world along with other new skills to discover, with different ways to unlock them based on your character. So a unique task can be needed for your character compared to another player, in order to unlock skills. So the game would be all about exploring and doing task as you see fit because the game isnt as on rails this way.

Each faction will have a starter new player zone, that teaches and trains players how to play the game before joining the real game world. Players can skip this as well and go to the main world when they feel ready. Here is picture

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

I agree, but there's a form of 'leveling' or progression in any game. It all depends on how the developer designs it.

Thats where the OP comes in. Its an attempt at designing an Elder Scrolls SCMORPG game with a model around adventure on your own terms. The Level Rails wont exist. keep that in mind. Same game world, with no rails, means you can go where you want from start to end.

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain.

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

This would require the developer to actually design a game engine specifically for their game. That typically doesn't happen. It's too costly for some of the bigger companies and it takes too much time.

Thats not a change to the game engine. The world is built around a single level. Progression is only from skills/gear/faction. not levels. Levels rail the game world, and makes it feel more like a train rather than a off road truck that can go in any direction it chooses from start to finish. Trains follow the rail in one way or the reverse way.

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players. For a single game world.

Many single player games have leveling and progression in them. Actually I'm inclined to say most do.

Many Single Player games have Levels, but the game world and design is built around a single player. Never built around a mass of players at once. Levels in Elder Scrolls game never were a problem, since the world scales to your level, and allow you much more freedom in where and when you want to go somewhere. the Difficulty is the only thing that changes. Thats when the progression elements help counter that, which leads to more progression. Levels wasnt the thing to do this.

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

Better implementation and design of a game is what you need, not removal of 'leveling'.

Go back and read the red

DKLond · February 2014

If you don't gate content to an extent, people will exhaust it that much faster. In a singleplayer game, that's not a problem.

In an MMO - where you're trying to create a living breathing world with thousands of players that's supposed to last for years - you're not using your brain if you spend years creating content and then doing your best to make people see as little of it as possible.

As for flexible level scaling, we saw how that worked in GW2 and a bit in TSW. The idea is sound, but the execution needs to be much better. In GW2, it was horribly artificial - as indeed was the entire game.

TSW was somewhat better, but unfortunately their character system was utterly underwhelming once you realised the price you paid for that kind of flexibility. It was essentially a massive amount of skills with exceedingly limited variety. The less said about combat, the better.

Nah, ESO is better in all ways here.

Notimeforbs · February 2014

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by MMOExposed
this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

This would make the game more adventurous to make our own

Adventure.

How would you go about doing this. Going on your own adventure would require the player to have access in creating content.

I said create your own adventure. as in going into the world, and making your own path to exploring the world, and saving the world. No need for zone rails because the zones arent tied to a level. No need for downscaling like GW2 does since the zones would have no level requirement. Skills for your class can be scattered all over the world along with other new skills to discover, with different ways to unlock them based on your character. So a unique task can be needed for your character compared to another player, in order to unlock skills. So the game would be all about exploring and doing task as you see fit because the game isnt as on rails this way.

Each faction will have a starter new player zone, that teaches and trains players how to play the game before joining the real game world. Players can skip this as well and go to the main world when they feel ready. Here is picture

The level rails make the gane feel more themepark than it needs to be.

I agree, but there's a form of 'leveling' or progression in any game. It all depends on how the developer designs it.

Thats where the OP comes in. Its an attempt at designing an Elder Scrolls SCMORPG game with a model around adventure on your own terms. The Level Rails wont exist. keep that in mind. Same game world, with no rails, means you can go where you want from start to end.

Dont get me wrong. Levels can stay for thr skills and skill point gain.

But remove the charactet levels and Zones.

This would require the developer to actually design a game engine specifically for their game. That typically doesn't happen. It's too costly for some of the bigger companies and it takes too much time.

Thats not a change to the game engine. The world is built around a single level. Progression is only from skills/gear/faction. not levels. Levels rail the game world, and makes it feel more like a train rather than a off road truck that can go in any direction it chooses from start to finish. Trains follow the rail in one way or the reverse way.

The Singleplayer game gets away with levels because the world scales to the one player and not hundreads of players. For a single game world.

Many single player games have leveling and progression in them. Actually I'm inclined to say most do.

Many Single Player games have Levels, but the game world and design is built around a single player. Never built around a mass of players at once. Levels in Elder Scrolls game never were a problem, since the world scales to your level, and allow you much more freedom in where and when you want to go somewhere. the Difficulty is the only thing that changes. Thats when the progression elements help counter that, which leads to more progression. Levels wasnt the thing to do this.

Get rid of levels and make all the world a big world with no start and endpoint defined.

Better implementation and design of a game is what you need, not removal of 'leveling'.

Go back and read the red

I actually agree with what you're saying. The problem is what you're talking about still has progression in it in some respect. You're talking about horizontal progression. Your powers never actually get more powerful; you just get more powers.

The problem here is that in MMO's they typically use a Percent Chance to Hit sort of mechanic. The numbers are being rolled in the background for everything. Horizontal progression doesn't need to do this, but it can.

I wrote about this earlier in the thread. You should give it a look-see. It might not be exactly what you had in mind, but it might help you out a little, I think.

DKLond · February 2014

The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

DAS1337 · February 2014

Originally posted by Damedius
It wouldn't work in an mmo.

Content has to scale to your level to make it challenging and to allow you wander wherever you want to go.

Each player or group would have to have their own instanced world to play in for this to work.

It has already worked in several MMO's.

People use their brain and avoid mobs that are too tough for them. They find the areas that challenge them appropriately.

But no, we can't ask people to use their brain any more. It's too hard!

I'm fine with the levels. Not thrilled with how the world is designed though.

MMOExposed · February 2014

Originally posted by DKLond
The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 is not a good example, because for starters, it has levels.

and for laters it was promised to have horizontal progression, like many other things promised, but it really never had that to began with.

DKLond · February 2014

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by DKLond
The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 is not a good example, because for starters, it has levels.

and for laters it was promised to have horizontal progression, like many other things promised, but it really never had that to began with.

Sure it had horizontal "progression". You got a ton of skins and christmas gifts wrapped in bright shiny paper - that didn't actually make you more powerful in any tangible way.

People are still playing the game, so I guess more of them enjoy stagnating than I would have guessed. I just wish they'd stop calling it progression.

Notimeforbs · February 2014

Originally posted by DKLond
The whole concept of horizontal progression is an illusion that's been perpetuated so much since GW2 that I'm sick of hearing about it.

Progression, as a concept, means you get BETTER - you EVOLVE. That doesn't happen with horizontal progression.

Telling people that they're progressing when they are, in fact, stagnating - is only going to work for a limited time.

Oh, there will always be a few people who might spend years realising this simple truth - but the majority will eventually realise that horizontal progression isn't that much fun - and that they've been duped into believing that evolution without evolution can actually happen.

GW2 doesn't have horizontal progression. It has vertical progression. The skills you use don't even matter. All that matters are the stats that make the skills stronger. And that's progressed through your gear. You can throw a million skills in a system and call it horizontal all you want. But if the skills only respond to the fact that you have larger stats that grow over time for one reason or another.... that's a vertical progression system.

This is D&D all over again. The only difference is that the base power is in your stats that you control, and not the gear or the spell. The spell is powerless without the stat. The attack is powerless without the stat. In MMO's, the developer controls the stats with the gear, instead of putting the option in your own hands. This is for balance purposes. It's the same thing all day long, and this is exactly what GW2 does.

Horizontal progression gives you the ability to choose between left, right, up, and down, instead of being made to go left. It gives you an even more sense of option than a predefined pattern of vertical progression - which REQUIRES an illusion to work in the first place.

Plenty of great games have been made with a horizontal progression system. The Legend of Zelda is one of them. Both are great systems to build a game with. But I think an MMO would prosper better with a horizontal progression approach. And just because ArenaNet says they have horizontal progression... doesn't mean they actually do. In fact... I don't even know how that is even a factor.

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this game would be better with No character Levels and No Zone Levels

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