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So the general census is that TESO should be F2P and not P2P?

245

Comments

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Woo another F2P thread, JUST what we needed! Games that are F2P have to make their money elsewhere which leads to cash shops and all that nonsense. Stick with the sub and throw the middle finger to the greedy kids that don't want to spend the price of a fast food meal once a month to play.
  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon

    F2P and the rise of casual MMO's where you can solo the entire experience to little detriment go hand in hand.  Lowering the barrier to entry and making your money back on the players at the top end is a great business strategy but it forces those games and really the industry as a whole to adopt a F2P friendly play model.  EQ1 hell even EQ2 in it's original form would have never worked as a F2P game because it demanded to much from players early on to hold the attention of people who don't have anything invested in the game and could just as easily jump to a different title than try and solve a difficult issue.  It was only after EQ2 "streamlined" the 1-cap experience that the title became viable for F2P.

    The pacing of levels and some of the more difficult fights reminded me a bit of these older sub games that where built as sub games.  I think it has more to do with being a TES title than a throw back to older style of MMO play but regardless Zenimax would have to "streamline" the leveling process significantly to make this a F2P title.  It just doesn't have the constant spoon feed rewards especially at the beginning to keep the average F2P gamer engaged.

    Having said that I do think ESO could work as a B2P model with bi-monthly DLC packs or so assuming they can stay away from the siren call of Lock Boxes and real world to game currency conversions.  Given that TSW just implemented lock boxes I think it's safe to say that's a tall if.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    I'd love to hear what your definition of a cash shop is. And please tell me where to find it.

     

    Also, it sounds like you're saying that you're willing to play anything if it's free. Or don't you guys get that the logical conclusion to "not good enough for a sub" is that what you do with your gaming time is not important to you...only the money is.

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.

  • onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    100% Agree, not just based on the game experience its self but on the IP as well.  B2P fits the Elder Scrolls very well simply due to them being single player games and to take an IP based on single player games and try to create it the way Zenimax did does not cause the game to be worth the cost.

     

    As a side note, cost is a big deal when it comes to what to purchase.  Look at Steam if you want proof of this.  How many of those indie games such as Binding of Isaac would be bought if they were $60 bucks + a sub fee?  Yes different games, and many being single player, but the concept is still there.  

    Value for Cost is something that as a consumer we should ALL take into consideration.  But that is not to say each person is exactly the same, so what one person says is worth it, another won't, and in the end it will be up to the individual consumer to decide if the cost is worth the value.

  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAPosts: 982Member Uncommon
    Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.
  • SeariasSearias Edmonton, ABPosts: 712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cronius77

    no this is 150% the free to play crowd screaming for it not being worth its cost monthly. Also its the sandbox crowd screaming its going to be all doom and gloom because it has quests in it and you cant play lego's all day. This game is coming out on consoles and pc , This game contrary to this sites jaded members beliefs will not be free to play for a very VERY long time unless it completely tanks on PS4 and Xbox which I highly doubt. 15 bucks a month is water in a bucket compared to the high prices of a cash shop in the end.

    This ^

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  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I don't think it should be free to play but that is the only amount I would personally pay for it because I don't think it is a very good product. I think the generic payment model for an MMO should be buy the box and play without a monthly fee and then if they want they can add cosmetic junk to a cash shop or not.

    I didn't buy Skyrim when it was full price either though, so I'm on about the same level that I was with the last game in the series.

    The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

    Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

    So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

    Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

    And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

    Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

    :)

     

    Are they honest. The person who plays twice a month pays the same price as the person who plays 30 times a months. As for GW2, I've only had to grind in the game when I wanted to grind, when I wanted ascended weapon. I still can do endgame content without it and still have a ball. Cosmetic is what cosmetic is. There is no real reason that you need the stuff.

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be B2P, but using the reasoning of past Elder Scrolls games having that business model is completely retarded. Past ES games were not MMOs, they were single player games that didn't require server upkeep and what not. This logic is stupid. It's like saying WoW shouldn't have launched with a sub because Warcraft didn't have one. 
  • MajiinXMajiinX new hyde park, NYPosts: 89Member
    Originally posted by retye50
    Nope, disagree...I dont mind paying $15 dollars a month. Hell, I can spend that in one night at the bar.

    OMG dude where do you live cause I need to move there! I live in New York and me and my fiancé can easily run up a $100+ bar tab ordering Jack and Cokes and beer.

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hariken
    Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.

    This is a problem for Zenimax for sure.  I have a couple friends who are big TES fans but don't play MMO's and they really have very little interest in this game.  Their feeling is this game will have all the downsides of playing in a MMO with non of the upsides of playing a Elder Scrolls game and it's hard for me to argue with them honestly.  The way open world zones are phased will help but at the end of the day unless Zenimax can prove to these fans who have little to no interest in multiplayer content that the $15 a month is getting them something of value they won't do it.  That and the rumbling about light end game PVE content is why I think Zenimax is banking on PVP to make or break this game.  If the PVP shows itself to be engaging long term than players won't care if it's $15 a month or what the pace of new PVE content is but if it's not than that monthly sub fee is going to begin to look steep very fast.

  • RaunuRaunu Lewisburg, PAPosts: 483Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    This isn't exactly true. Lineage 2 is an example of a game that was doing poorly in the west a couple years ago, and then they went F2P and began making much more money.  L2 probably has one of the best F2P models IMHO.

    Now I would like to point out that if L2's F2P model was released on a brand new game, I wouldn't like it so much because XP boosting items are in the item shop. Other than that, I think it's great.

    - - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.

    With THAT combat/UI/animations It is pretty much exclusively targeted to ES fans. 

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..

     

    there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun....   If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...

    Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.

    The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.

    Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.

    With THAT combat/UI/animations It is pretty much exclusively targeted to ES fans. 

    Or non-ES fans who'd like to try something different perhaps ?

    Except that very few "standard themepark" players actually want "something different", even if they claim to...

  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member
    Originally posted by dontadow
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor
    Originally posted by Ender4

    I don't think it should be free to play but that is the only amount I would personally pay for it because I don't think it is a very good product. I think the generic payment model for an MMO should be buy the box and play without a monthly fee and then if they want they can add cosmetic junk to a cash shop or not.

    I didn't buy Skyrim when it was full price either though, so I'm on about the same level that I was with the last game in the series.

    The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

    Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

    So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

    Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

    And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

    Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

    :)

     

    Are they honest. The person who plays twice a month pays the same price as the person who plays 30 times a months. As for GW2, I've only had to grind in the game when I wanted to grind, when I wanted ascended weapon. I still can do endgame content without it and still have a ball. Cosmetic is what cosmetic is. There is no real reason that you need the stuff.

    Then that person who plays twice a month should find another hobby or game if it upsets them. That example is poor. Exchange the medium from MMO to cable TV and you don't see this kind of complaining. People pay the same amount for a given package a month yet you don't see folks complaining that their neighbor gets to watch more hours of HBO.

    Folks need to evaluate "bang for buck" based on their personal happiness, not in comparison to what someone else is doing. Be happy with your own yard and stop peeking over into the neighbors and trying to live like them.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Happy to pay the 15.
  • KhalathwyrKhalathwyr Denton, TXPosts: 3,138Member
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by Hariken
    Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.

    This is a problem for Zenimax for sure.  I have a couple friends who are big TES fans but don't play MMO's and they really have very little interest in this game.  Their feeling is this game will have all the downsides of playing in a MMO with non of the upsides of playing a Elder Scrolls game and it's hard for me to argue with them honestly.  The way open world zones are phased will help but at the end of the day unless Zenimax can prove to these fans who have little to no interest in multiplayer content that the $15 a month is getting them something of value they won't do it.  That and the rumbling about light end game PVE content is why I think Zenimax is banking on PVP to make or break this game.  If the PVP shows itself to be engaging long term than players won't care if it's $15 a month or what the pace of new PVE content is but if it's not than that monthly sub fee is going to begin to look steep very fast.

    Just depends on your personal experience. My wife is an ES fan and she'll be playing. I have several other ES first fan friends that were skeptical up until they got into a test weekend. None are saying the game is perfect, no MMO is. All are saying...well, all have pre purchased.

    "Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

    Kickstarter 2 / Naysayers 0

  • ArakaziArakazi OxfordPosts: 889Member

    I don't think it really matters what payment model it will use, it won't make it a better game. All P2P does is raise the barrier for entry and for Zenimax profit margin, it won't make that much difference, after all if people aren't going to spend $60 for ESO it's unlikely they will spend much in the cash shops. In fact in the short-term they will probably make more money via box and subscription.

    In the long term this may change. If they want to raise the population or if they feel that a cash shop plus sub will make them more money then that's the road they will use. If that's the case all they have to do is make sure that the cash shop doesn't have a negative impact on the game experience.

  • rygard49rygard49 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 975Member
    Originally posted by dontadow
    Originally posted by GregorMcgregor

    The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).

    Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).

    So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).

    Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".

    And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.

    Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!

    :)

    Are they honest. The person who plays twice a month pays the same price as the person who plays 30 times a months. As for GW2, I've only had to grind in the game when I wanted to grind, when I wanted ascended weapon. I still can do endgame content without it and still have a ball. Cosmetic is what cosmetic is. There is no real reason that you need the stuff.

    It's a monthly membership that guarantees that you'll have unlimited access for 30 days. Whether or not you can spend 30 days playing or two days, it's up to each individual to determine their own value for that membership. If someone can only play twice a month, I doubt they're getting much out of any MMO, much less worried about a sub fee.

    Would you say that Gym membership fees are unfair if a person can only go twice a month and pay the same price as the person who goes 30 times a month? Or would you say that it's that individuals responsibility to know that he's paying for something he's barely going to use?

  • I actually don't care that much.  I would say I think they are making a mistake in their business model, but for me personally I don't really care.

     

    However what they are doing with pre-order and CE is completely scummy and disgusts me.  In fact it disturbs me greatly as some business dickhead in a monkey suit is clearly making decisions that are at complete odds to the design of the game and whoever is responsible for it needs to be shitcanned immediately before it gets out of control.

  • IGaveUpIGaveUp NW, INPosts: 273Member

    F2P?  Nope.

     

    B2P + Item Shop + Services would in my opinion work best for both PC and console.

     

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon
    B2P + sub + regular and high quality content updates all the way!
  • VolgoreVolgore Posts: 2,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by retye50
    Nope, disagree...I dont mind paying $15 dollars a month. Hell, I can spend that in one night at the bar.

    Sounds like one these night in which you really party hard, not matter the cost ;)

    image
  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Hariken
    Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.

    I'm not sure what your argument is here.

     

    People that want to play a modded single player experience are not included in ESO's target demographic.  Please, load up your game and have fun.

    image
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