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History and the art of Storytelling, Why Elder Scrolls Online is the next big Success. Negative Fe

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    Let me try to break it down again.

    Is game play a story telling device? no. Its a story creating device HOWEVER....HOWEVER....

    The technology of the day make it possible to merge the two (create story vs recieving a story) thus redefining what a 'game' is.

    HOWEVER...forcing one play style over another isnt good game design in the modern era.

     

    I hope that makes some level of sense to someone.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Funny how my suggestion of making a game that supports both play styles instead of a game that forces one play style is actually me forcing my will on how a game should be..

     

    face palm! or I am getting trolled...not sure which

    You can accomplish this in ESO though. You have the PvE side which is story based and the PvP side which is player based. Cyrodiil is pretty big, not an open world but its still big enough to have politics involved and alliances. There is nothing scripted in the PvP, yes they have some PvE thrown in but there is the PvP element also.

    I wish they made the game open world and FFA hardcore shit throwing style type of game but they didn't. I also can enjoy this or at least try to for what its worth. Will it be great? I don't know its up to the players and what they do with the PvP side of things. 

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Funny how my suggestion of making a game that supports both play styles instead of a game that forces one play style is actually me forcing my will on how a game should be..

     

    face palm! or I am getting trolled...not sure which

    You can accomplish this in ESO though. You have the PvE side which is story based and the PvP side which is player based. Cyrodiil is pretty big, not an open world but its still big enough to have politics involved and alliances. There is nothing scripted in the PvP, yes they have some PvE thrown in but there is the PvP element also.

    I wish they made the game open world and FFA hardcore shit throwing style type of game but they didn't. I also can enjoy this or at least try to for what its worth. Will it be great? I don't know its up to the players and what they do with the PvP side of things. 

    no no no.

    I dont care much for PvP or story based whatever shall we do!

    the solution is sooo simple. Just dont offer huge rewards on quests that I couldnt get by just going out and doing some pve and crafting which is what I enjoy.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    RPG have always been about story crafting, not story telling. This game doesn't let you craft squat, it leads you around by the nose and takes all of the power away from the player. This is everything wrong with MMORPG right here. Plus the combat is simply awful, so easy to exploit it that it isn't even fun.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Ender4

    RPG have always been about story crafting, not story telling. This game doesn't let you craft squat, it leads you around by the nose and takes all of the power away from the player. This is everything wrong with MMORPG right here.

    All they have to do is not make the rewards so large to quest. Make it so if I go out and kill 10 rats its basically the same as if I went out and killed 10 rats without a quest.

    The ironic thing is here is that this is EXACTLY how Elder Scrolls Single player games work. Its not like the MMO space is a magical place where this is not possible.

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Ender4

    RPG have always been about story crafting, not story telling. This game doesn't let you craft squat, it leads you around by the nose and takes all of the power away from the player. This is everything wrong with MMORPG right here.

    All they have to do is not make the rewards so large to quest. Make it so if I go out and kill 10 rats its basically the same as if I went out and killed 10 rats without a quest.

    The ironic thing is here is that this is EXACTLY how Elder Scrolls Single player games work. Its not like the MMO space is a magical place where this is not possible.

    You don't understand, you can't do that.  Thats an "old" way of doing things, and old = bad.  New, good, old, bad.

    So long as you keep all that in mind most of these posts will start making some sense.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Originally posted by Hrimnir
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Ender4

    RPG have always been about story crafting, not story telling. This game doesn't let you craft squat, it leads you around by the nose and takes all of the power away from the player. This is everything wrong with MMORPG right here.

    All they have to do is not make the rewards so large to quest. Make it so if I go out and kill 10 rats its basically the same as if I went out and killed 10 rats without a quest.

    The ironic thing is here is that this is EXACTLY how Elder Scrolls Single player games work. Its not like the MMO space is a magical place where this is not possible.

    You don't understand, you can't do that.  Thats an "old" way of doing things, and old = bad.  New, good, old, bad.

    So long as you keep all that in mind most of these posts will start making some sense.

     

    Can't do it because it's old? It sounds like you're being sarcastic(being the internet, it's impossible to tell) but really... you "can't do that" because it would make questing obsolete.


    No modern gamer would bother talking to some boring NPC to get a quest to kill 8 dookie mounds and then run allll the way back to him to get the reward if they could get the reward without the talking and backtracking. Is that whats attempted to be said here in this thread? That the questing system is tired and needs to be trashed?

     

    Well no shit.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Kyleran If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

    This

  • DamediusDamedius Calgary, ABPosts: 346Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

    The stories the players have made in EVE in the past 10 years far exceed anything ever delivered in LOTRO, shame you've missed it.

    You say this, yet people's wallets have been telling a different story.

  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Millersburg, INPosts: 805Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Kyleran
    If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.The stories the players have made in EVE in the past 10 years far exceed anything ever delivered in LOTRO, shame you've missed it.

    I think this might be why EQ Next is going to push the story telling. It's going for more of a world simulation approach then a scripted themepark approach. I think thats our biggest rut in the MMO genru is that the games are trying to tell a story and make you feel all heroic. When in reality how heroic do you feel when 1K+ other players do the EXACT same story line (overall) as you do.

    EVE stands out because its a universe simulation and less of a scripted storyline. And from everything the EQN dev's have stated thats where they are going. A simulated world as oppose to a scripted storyline.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Kyleran If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

     

    This

    That...I still don't buy. Player created stories are the fan fiction of MMOs, amateurish crap.

     

    Or do you mean the organic stories like "Today I gathered 2,432 units of maple. By the end of the week I'll have enough to build the stairs to the 2nd floor."

     

    People are so ready to embrace the new and experimental just because its new... there's a reason why storytelling by professional story tellers has been around for a couple of thousand years: they're good.

     

     

     

  • SenanSenan Tuscaloosa, ALPosts: 783Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Kyleran If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

     

    This

    That...I still don't buy. Player created stories are the fan fiction of MMOs, amateurish crap.

     

    Or do you mean the organic stories like "Today I gathered 2,432 units of maple. By the end of the week I'll have enough to build the stairs to the 2nd floor."

     

    People are so ready to embrace the new and experimental just because its new... there's a reason why storytelling by professional story tellers has been around for a couple of thousand years: they're good.

     

     

     

    Afreakingmen.

    image
  • Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Kyleran If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

     

    This

    That...I still don't buy. Player created stories are the fan fiction of MMOs, amateurish crap.

     

    Or do you mean the organic stories like "Today I gathered 2,432 units of maple. By the end of the week I'll have enough to build the stairs to the 2nd floor."

     

    People are so ready to embrace the new and experimental just because its new... there's a reason why storytelling by professional story tellers has been around for a couple of thousand years: they're good.

     

     

     

     

    That basically brings me back to my first point, "Are modern gamers that creative?" The better question might be, "are they even remotely interested in creating their own storylines?" A few are, definitely. Sounds fun. The majority... not even close.

  • SpiiderSpiider BinzPosts: 474Member Uncommon

    Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls... Same group.

     

    ESO will be f2p within 12 months, maybe even sooner.

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member

    OP, to be entirely honest you read like a bad shill. I do not write that to insult you only to inform you of the perception you have created by presenting a blatant falsehood marketing this game toward lovers of story, a weakness of this game. I would absolutely love to see you walk into a room full of TESO developers and tell them the AV3 PVP is irrelevant when clearly and in their own words it is what makes their game unique and worth playing. It is the entire focus of play with the PVE and story simply serving as a side leveling experience to introduce you into the conflict and provide some lore context that many will skip while naming their character something like BubbsDoButts or PVPUBrah. 

     

    There is more than one reason many previews have described the story play as generic and bland. You are simply jumping hoops through the quest line without the ability to make important choices that have impact nor room to go do your own thing for a time which made Skyrim great in spite of some terrible storylines they actually forced on you. You have already noted how short it is and thank god it's not longer. If you want personal story then go play SWTOR which in many ways runs counter to the design of TESO.

  • Originally posted by Kyleran
    If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

    The stories the players have made in EVE in the past 10 years far exceed anything ever delivered in LOTRO, shame you've missed it.

    Don't be so sure there was a lot player-made stuff on landroval.  There was an entire guild that did nothing but patrol the Shire as Shirrifs.  There was also an entire event in the north downs area where they formed an army and marched on the enemy there.

     

    Course it was all RP stuff.

  • Originally posted by Seilan
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

     


    Originally posted by Kyleran If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

     

    This

    That...I still don't buy. Player created stories are the fan fiction of MMOs, amateurish crap.

     

    Or do you mean the organic stories like "Today I gathered 2,432 units of maple. By the end of the week I'll have enough to build the stairs to the 2nd floor."

     

    People are so ready to embrace the new and experimental just because its new... there's a reason why storytelling by professional story tellers has been around for a couple of thousand years: they're good.

     

     

     

    Afreakingmen.

    No he's talking about months long protracted wars through 30 different systems.  He's talking about players running con-job's on each other to infiltrate a corporation through deceit and  steal billions of credits right out from under the noses of that Corporation.  He talking about people doing trade runs through parts of space infested by pirate-players.  He's talking about a corporation moving into a system, keeping control of it and building their own space station and defense emplacements. 

     

    etc etc

     

    He's talking about this:

    http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=172529

    as a famous example.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
     

    That...I still don't buy. Player created stories are the fan fiction of MMOs, amateurish crap.

     

    Or do you mean the organic stories like "Today I gathered 2,432 units of maple. By the end of the week I'll have enough to build the stairs to the 2nd floor."

     

    People are so ready to embrace the new and experimental just because its new... there's a reason why storytelling by professional story tellers has been around for a couple of thousand years: they're good.

     

    I'd say most videogame writing is a lot closer to "fan fiction" than professional writing. How many game writers have had a book published (or could)? At least if you're chopping maple to build your house that is something that your character is doing in the game and what you make up in your head about it will be your story. Seems infintely better to me than reading someone else's fan fiction.

     

    I love series like The Witcher or even LOTRO where they focus on the story and the story is actually interesting but those games are few and far between I find.

     

  • otacuotacu BolzanoPosts: 547Member

    Op i hope you are prepared to have your rose tinted glasses delusions crashed!

    It's interesting you didn't mention SWTOR in your post since it was the "next big success in hisotry and art of Storytelling" before ESO.

    Mmorpg themepark and storytelling don't work well together. They don't work together at all. Because having thousands of players doing the same quest and saving the world is just plain silly.

    Remember RPG pen and paper? how many people were around the table? 5? 6? or thousands? 

    You can compare it to a single player game.... a co-op game. Not a mmorpg.

     

    It doesn't work. Look at ESO and all the phasing. The leveling and the PVE experience is just solo playing.... it's like a single player game. That's not a mmorpg. When people will cap they will ask themselves "ok now i have finished the leveling...it was subpar compared to other single player games.... the story was really weak... why should i pay a sub for this?" 

    And they will leave in droves. Storytelling doesn't work in mmorpg themeparks.

    Brace for impact OP

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Didn't we agree that a great story wasn't enough to save SWTOR? What makes you think it will save ESO? You still need a good endgame and as of yet we have seen absolutely nothing about it.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    If you don't realize that its supposed to be the players who make and live the story in a MMORPG, then you've missed the entire point and potential of the genre.

    The stories the players have made in EVE in the past 10 years far exceed anything ever delivered in LOTRO, shame you've missed it.

    While I agree with this, I have to say that story in an MMO doesn't just have to be generated from the players.  The sort of story you're speaking of - that develops between player interactions - will happen organically anyway.  I might also add that it can only happen in a game that allows for a strong meaningful PvP element and not simply empty arena bouts.  The only stories I've ever heard about EVE, as epic as they are, all deal with PvP sort of situations and the drama therein.  But, I do agree that allowing these sorts of stories have to be the absolute back-bone of the design, no matter what.

    At any rate, these sorts of stories can theoretically happen in any online game which has Open-World PvP as a major feature, but I'd argue it would require a similarly deep economic system as a catalyst.  Back in SWG - there was similar drama between the Imps and the Rebels.  I've never experienced so much living story in an MMO before or since.

    There is actually a lot of theory I could discuss here to further extrapolate what I am speaking about, but I won't get into it.

    Either way - dev generated story can create memorable moments all the same.  Have MMO's reached the level of Single Player story experiences?  I've never had that pleasure... but I believe it can happen.  SWTOR got close a few times with some of its class stories.  But even then... they were just "good for an MMO" and couldn't be compared to something in say Mass Effect or The Witcher.

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Memphis, TNPosts: 346Member Common
    Originally posted by boxsnd
    Didn't we agree that a great story wasn't enough to save SWTOR? What makes you think it will save ESO? You still need a good endgame and as of yet we have seen absolutely nothing about it.

    Why do you think people spent thousands of hours in Skyrim just running around exploring?  Or Oblivion?  Or Morrowind?  Do you think it was because of cool end-game?  No.  It's because of the sense of discovery and exploration.  There's no reason to think the same can't apply to an MMO.

    I think if ESO just sticks to the strengths of the series... it will be able to afford to cut loose a lot of shallow bloated ideals about what an MMO is supposed to have.

     

  • Cures80Cures80 viennaPosts: 29Member
    stories will be told in RvR - by the players. any other stories in mmo's are completely unnecessary.
  • VarraxVarrax CorkPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    ok here is an example that might help people understand 'player created stories

    Devs didnt have to make a story line, didnt have to construct quests or any of that. 

    I cant agree with you, cause players aren't skilled in making the plot. Yes,  the more choices player has - the better, but such story, or plot based on players choices is going to bee poor and gray. That's why people enjoy games - they're vivid and thrilling, and  you're proposing to make it closer to life, more realistic. 

    Someone likes storyline, others like endgame PvE, someone enjoys massive PvP, as I see you're fond of realism in games, but I doubt you're going to like ESO then. 

    As for me, right now ESO is more of story-based MMO with average PvE mechanics, and average combat system.

    Can't say bout PvP, I wasn't able to test it enough, but also looks more average then perfect, but overall effect of game is above  average and closer to success.

     

  • VarraxVarrax CorkPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by Cures80
    stories will be told in RvR - by the players. any other stories in mmo's are completely unnecessary.

    Kinda nihilistic statement. As I already said stories told by players are chaotic, poor and gray. Its only aspect of entire game, not the main feature. Players are in need of some epic adventure, full of blood, mayhem and fantasy :)

     I'm fond of RvR too, but anyway, you need a strong storyline to direct people's choices, or they'll loose interest to the game very quickly.

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